I’m so tired of indie games that substitute mystery for a plot

[Giggling Ghast]

I’ve played a lot of different games through GamePass in the past year or so, and a fair number of them have been independent games that can be summed up thusly:

You are Silent Protagonist, and you are either a featureless blob of pixels or a pair of floating hands.
You wake up (or crash land, occasionally) in a place you do not recognize.
You don’t know how you got there or why you’re there. For that matter, you don’t know who you are or even what you are supposed to be working towards. All that is clear is that you’ve got to keep moving in a certain direction while solving puzzles, some of which are so poorly-presented that you don't know what you actually did until you get an XBox achievement informing you of what you did.
If there is a plot, it will only be conveyed to you through vague hints and confusing dialogue.

It’s getting to be kind of a tired cliche. Inscrutability is not automatically “deep.”

[Razade]

Fish Out of Water is an easy way to frame a story in a way simply being present and around doesn't let you explore.

[Giggling Ghast]

These aren’t Fish Out of Water stories, though. The protagonist never questions what is happening or how to do whatever the game requires of them on. This is just a deliberate lack of info being conveyed by the plot.

I mean, take the game I played tonight - Far: Changing Tides. You are … a collection of pixels that roughly resembles a boy? And you start out in a flooded town which, based solely on the XBox Achievement I unlocked, is apparently your hometown? And you have to sail a boat in one of the buildings to … somewhere? There’s a picture you can zoom in on that suggests maybe you are looking for a woman? Unless that’s a red herring and the only reason for zooming in on the picture was to demonstrate a game mechanic?

“Well, that’s just one game.” No, that’s what I’m trying to say - there are way too many indie titles exactly like this.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I have that complaint about a bunch of indie games I actually otherwise like. Katana Zero is a great example. The plot is REALLY flimsy without the mystery that permeates the whole game, and it just comes off as pretentious.

[Razade]

These aren’t Fish Out of Water stories, though. The protagonist never questions what is happening or how to do whatever the game requires of them on - it’s the player that’s being led around by the nose.

I mean, take the game I played tonight - Far: Changing Tides. You are … a boy? And you start out in a flooded town which, based solely on the XBox Achievement I unlocked, is apparently your hometown? And you have to sail a boat in one of the buildings to … somewhere? There’s a picture you can zoom in on that suggests maybe you are looking for a woman? Unless that’s a red herring?

I mean, you are. The character is a player surrogate. You're in an unfamiliar place, learning about what's going on through the lens of the character. You're meant to question what's happening in the game world. Video games can be an immersive experience.

[Giggling Ghast]

But I’m not so much “learning about what’s going on through the lens of my character” as I am just following button prompts to advance to the next area, because there are no answers being provided and I have no idea what’s going on.

This is not engaging storytelling. This is me being a rat in a cage hitting a buzzer to get treats.

Yeah, I have that complaint about a bunch of indie games I actually otherwise like. Katana Zero is a great example. The plot is REALLY flimsy without the mystery that permeates the whole game, and it just comes off as pretentious.

Thank you! Someone gets it.

[Eldan]

Katana Zero (if that's the game I mean) has fun gameplay though, so the story really doesn't matter much. IT's more like an arcade title.

I think the additional problems with these "You are Child, here is sad world" games is that the gameplay is often also really basic.

[Rynjin]

Katana Zero (if that's the game I mean) has fun gameplay though, so the story really doesn't matter much. IT's more like an arcade title.

I think the additional problems with these "You are Child, here is sad world" games is that the gameplay is often also really basic.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I LOVED that game. Super fun. But in the back of my mind I kept thinking "Whoever wrote this thinks it's WAY deeper than it actually is". A lot of sequences left me more confused than intrigued, and the "big reveal" was not exactly shocking.

But that gameplay do be FIRE though.

[warty goblin]

Katana Zero (if that's the game I mean) has fun gameplay though, so the story really doesn't matter much. IT's more like an arcade title.

I think the additional problems with these "You are Child, here is sad world" games is that the gameplay is often also really basic.

Ah yes, the Sad Child platformer. Fortunately, due to their heavy reliance on monochrome or black and white, they are easily recognized in the wild. I've been successfully avoiding them for years, ever since I watched the Limbo trailer and thought it looked like an art style looking for both point and game.

I too am tired of mistaking inscrutability for depth. Thus instead of characters with personality and goals we just get some vaguely creepy dudes very... slowly... intoning... utter... nonsense.
If everybody is weird like that, it isn't mysterious or off-putting, its just a place entirey inhabited by mall goths, each hellbent on being more melodramatic than the next.

I'm not opposed to allusion or metaphor or vagueness, but games that do this are generally not metaphorical about anything. They're usually really literal, and just have to be vague as hell because the actual plot is basically a nothingburger. Usually there was a magic war and/or God died and maybe there's an implied time loop but whatever the case only you are a bad enough dude to kill all the other dudes for... reasons that are probably not explained because establishing character motivation would require actual characters.

(No I don't like Soulslikes. Yes I've tried Elden Ring, it also was bad. Yes I know you think that if you describe in painstaking detail how I just don't understand this/that/the other feature, I will be converted from my base heresy. People have been trying for years, and occasionally they convince me to reinstall one of the things, and every time I dislike the entire design paradigm even more. )

But when there's some genuine emotional core vagueness and metaphor are fantastic tools. Othercide is opaque as anything, but as a way to drive you to think and engage with its core, and it actually has a core. It's about being sick, and the horrible things that happen to your body, that are done to your body, and the pain and exhaustion your pain causes others. And the entire art and game design hammer this home, once you see it.

[Cespenar]

As good games as they might be, I think the Souls series is really partly to blame here. And it really didn't help that people loved the game because of its gameplay, then, because they're playing it, got attracted to the tiny bits of alluded "lore" that it had, and then misconstrued that as the game having good lore.

Also, as we're dumping off hot takes, I posit that at least 20% of the problem is schools making a majority of people dislike reading.

Another 10-20% of the problem is that it takes a minute to write one sentence of vague (but mysterioussss) item description, but an hour to write several paragraphs of thought out dialogue.

[Psyren]

Returnal does this too. And you either ARE or are being HAUNTED BY "The Astronaut."

For that matter, Little Nightmares does this too.

But the gameplay makes up for it for me.

[Eldan]

I don't know, I think Returnal worked for me. Felt like a solidly constructed metaphor.

[Erloas]

but an hour to write several paragraphs of thought out dialogue.

I might be in a minority here, but if a sizable amount of a game's story is written out in paragraphs then the designers are completely failing to take into account the medium they're working in.
If it's actual dialog between active characters that's fine, or the *occasional* found book or computer that's good too.
But sitting around just reading without any game happening is just not a good design for a game.
Especially with a lower budget game voice acting isn't possible, but there are ways to do it that isn't just reading hidden books of lore all over the world.

[InvisibleBison]

I might be in a minority here, but if a sizable amount of a game's story is written out in paragraphs then the designers are completely failing to take into account the medium they're working in.
If it's actual dialog between active characters that's fine, or the *occasional* found book or computer that's good too.
But sitting around just reading without any game happening is just not a good design for a game.
Especially with a lower budget game voice acting isn't possible, but there are ways to do it that isn't just reading hidden books of lore all over the world.

So how should games go about conveying substantial quantities of information to the player?

[warty goblin]

I might be in a minority here, but if a sizable amount of a game's story is written out in paragraphs then the designers are completely failing to take into account the medium they're working in.
If it's actual dialog between active characters that's fine, or the *occasional* found book or computer that's good too.
But sitting around just reading without any game happening is just not a good design for a game.
Especially with a lower budget game voice acting isn't possible, but there are ways to do it that isn't just reading hidden books of lore all over the world.

No, I'm right there with you. Believe me, the last thing I'll advocate for is more lore books or tediously expounding characters.

But it isn't like the mysterious vagueness school of exposition gets away from lore books or tedious speeches. Its just that the lore text and exposition dialog is vague and useless and you need to hunt down most/all of it for the protoplasmic lump of a story to even sort of make sense. This is the worst of both worlds, you have to sift through too many pieces adding up to too little, and everything is simultaneously overwritten and underexplained.

[Psyren]

I don't know, I think Returnal worked for me. Felt like a solidly constructed metaphor.

It worked for me too, kind of. But if you're going to make a story-focused roguelike, it's important to include a story difficulty like Hades did, for the folks who just want to understand what the hell is going on without needing to hone their reflexes to razor sharpness first. Otherwise it can easily become frustrating.

[warty goblin]

So how should games go about conveying substantial quantities of information to the player?

Most of the time there isn't that much information to convey. For most standard combat focused titles, you basically need why your character cares about stopping the bad guys, why the bad guys are bad, and how you can stop them. You can add a lot of plot twists and obstacles and mystery to various parts of this formula while keeping it pretty obvious in the moment to moment what is going on. If you the player knows what is happening, exposition gets reduced to explaining how the situation has changed, which is pretty minimal, and often entirety obvious from the game itself.

As long as the time per info dump is short, I don't feel like I'm reading a badly formatted book or watching a not fantastic movie. String that out over 30 hours and you can get a lot of information in. You also get a plot with escalations and relevations and engagement.

[Lord Raziere]

meh. its a trend, it'll end sooner or later. let them have their time in the spotlight before it inevitably shines on the next thing and everyone immediately forgets about such games like they never existed.

[Giggling Ghast]

the Limbo trailer

While I liked Limbo for its atmosphere, I fear it got the ball rolling on this trend of independent games with incredibly vague storylines.

[Eldonauran]

I get it. It seems like so many games these days are like watered down milk meant to engage that dopamine hit, when I want a steak of a game to sink my teeth into and chew, and savor. Might just be me, though.

Elden Ring had me for about 120 hours, but it was never because of the story or the gameplay. I tried it. It pissed me off. I beat it out of sheer spite. Learned a good bit of stuff and even enjoyed it at time, but afterwards... There is nothing to draw me back. It gathers dust now as I turn my gaze back to a dozen or so other games 10+ years old that always pull me back in. Hell, I've got a handful of them pushing 20 years old that still do this.

[Psyren]

While I liked Limbo for its atmosphere, I fear it got the ball rolling on this trend of independent games with incredibly vague storylines.

Technically Oddworld started that trend but Limbo definitely ran with the football, before passing it off to Little Nightmares, Inside etc.

[NeoVid]

I was just learning about Iron Lung, which is one of the most unsettling games ever, but just plain doesn't give you any answers about the extremely intriguing setting, even though your role is supposed to be investigating the mystery. I would love it if more of the games that hint at having a big mystery you have to piece together actually gave you the pieces, like Spiritfarer or Secret World did.

[Destro_Yersul]

I think Hollow Knight actually did a great job of being mysterious and encouraging exploration, while also giving you enough information to piece together the plot. It has a pretty well-defined story, handed out in snippets of dialogue, the ocassional paragraph or so on a tablet, and environmental cues.

[Eldan]

Yeah, there's a reason I liked Hollow Knight so much, and it certainly wasn't the platforming sections or Dream Bosses.

[Cespenar]

I think Hollow Knight was just as guilty of this as Dark Souls too, but the rest of the game was so good that we mostly didn't care/ overlooked it.

[Eldan]

No, I genuinely like the worldbuilding in Hollow Knight. Characters, too.

[Giggling Ghast]

To be clear, I have no problem piecing together a mystery, but I do have an issue with being plopped down somewhere and being given literally no context for who I am, where I am or what I’m supposed to be doing beyond pushing left on the controller.

I haven’t played Elden Ring, but I have watched the opening cinematic and read up on some of the lore, and I know that you are a Tarnished (albeit a nobody Tarnished) and have a goal to work towards: become the new Elden Lord.

That at least is something to work off of. There are way too many indie games don't even give you that much.

[Lord Raziere]

To be clear, I have no problem piecing together a mystery, but I do have an issue with being plopped down somewhere and being given literally no context for who I am, where I am or what I’m supposed to be working towards.

I haven’t played Elden Ring, but I have watched the opening cinematic and read up on some of the lore, and I know that you are given a goal to work towards: become the new Elden Lord.

What promoted my rant was playing yet another indie game where I have zero information to work with. I’m a blob of pixels on the screen solving puzzles and that’s literally all I know about the plot, the setting and the story.

yeah I tried watching a lets play of Baba Is You and while its a good game and cute, there is no story to it and didn't hold my attention, when clearly its just supposed to be a pure puzzle-solving game so not really a thing worth watching.

[Dame_Mechanus]

What promoted my rant was playing yet another indie game where I have zero information to work with. I’m a blob of pixels on the screen solving puzzles and that’s literally all I know about the plot, the setting and the story.

These kinds of games are way too common. The protagonist isn't meant to be a surrogate you fill with your own constructed meaning for doing stuff; they're clearly meant to be Trying To Do Something, but the game doesn't tell you why they're doing it or even what they're trying to do. It's like being locked in a room and being stuck there until you roll the right total on 3d6 without ever being told what the right total is and with no penalty for failure. It's substituting atmosphere for actual narrative, assuming you'll want to figure out who you're playing as and why they're doing anything instead of just getting bored in the first five minutes because the answers aren't presented in a way that would make you care.

And they are absolutely never as clever as they want to believe. You can do a lot with a setup wherein the player has limited information to start with, but you have to give them some motivation - an interesting set of mechanics, some motivation relayed either by a narrator or the protagonist themselves, some reason for the player to say "let's see where this is headed." Kurt Vonnegut said that every character in a story should want something, even if it's just a glass of water, and that is really enough. If you started one of these vague games and the protagonist started with "ugh, my head... gosh, I really want a glass of water," you'll at least know what you're supposed to be working toward. It's a starting point.

[Destro_Yersul]

Hollow Knight's intro cinematic helps with that. You see some sort of village in the distance, and your character is walking towards it, therefore step one is reach the village. No dialogue, it's not a long cinematic, but it gives you a point to work from. Then when you get through the tutorial area and reach the village, there's an NPC to talk to, and he gives you the next couple bread crumbs.