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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    It sounds like you never gave the FFG game a fair shake. Diceroller apps are free, and the dual-axis sucess/fail/advantage/complication effect of the dice pool leads to some very star-warsy situations. It requires a bit of thinking on your feet as GM, though, as you figure out a reasonable side effect on the fly.
    I definetly would like to add that the system is a lot more about flow of story rather than drilled down tactical simulator.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    It sounds like you never gave the FFG game a fair shake. Diceroller apps are free, and the dual-axis sucess/fail/advantage/complication effect of the dice pool leads to some very star-warsy situations. It requires a bit of thinking on your feet as GM, though, as you figure out a reasonable side effect on the fly.
    The D6 version also had success/fail/advantage/complication mechanics called "wild dice". When you rolled your die pool one die was a different color. If it came up a six, it was an exploding 6 and you had some lucky break or other positive/cool side effects. (Han picks up a force pike and takes a blind swing. His wide die comes up 6! As he swings he hits Boba Fett in the back causing his jetpack to misfire, launching him into the side of Jabba's sail barge.)

    If the Wild Die came up a one, something bad happened. (Luke doesn't know how to lock the blast door on the Death Star so he decides to shoot the control panel. His wild die comes up a one! The door is jammed but that control panel also held the controls to extend the bridge!)

    It was still possible to succeed at a roll and have something bad happen, or fail a roll but still get a lucky break. And you didn't need a whole new set of funky dice that can only be used for one system to do it.
    "Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    My Wild Die rules were:

    If you rolled a 1, you removed the highest other die and the 1, resulting in a smaller die pool.

    If you would have failed with the full die pool, you had a critical failure. This might be Han trying to con in the detention area... so bad that they became wildly suspicious and sent immediate security.

    If you failed because of the subtracted die, you failed.

    If you succeeded in spite of the subtracted die, you had a "Yes, and" situation... you still did succeeded, but something unexpected happened not necessarily bad). This might be Luke blasting the controls for the bridge. He did what he set out to do, but there was a complication that impacted the next action.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    It sounds like you never gave the FFG game a fair shake. Diceroller apps are free, and the dual-axis sucess/fail/advantage/complication effect of the dice pool leads to some very star-warsy situations. It requires a bit of thinking on your feet as GM, though, as you figure out a reasonable side effect on the fly.
    I *wanted* to like the game, a lot, actually. I like Star Wars as an RPG setting. I am a huge fan of games that treat success not just as a binary success/failure question but adds another layer to it.
    I also like beautiful things to look at, and this is a gorgeous game, very well layouted and with beautiful artwork. The colourful dice are also intriguing, stimulating your monkey brain going "colourful, nice" and the symbols being all mystic grants another layer to a visually intriguing game. On a pure aesthetic level, the version we playtested (Edge of Empire) is a fine game.
    Unfortunately, that is almost all the game has to offer to me: it sure looks beautiful. But under this gorgeous façade it is also overdesigned, written sloppy as hell, and bloated. Edge of Empire is a 400+ page tome (twice as long as the Star Wars D6 core book, just for comparison, and that is for an incomplete game, that wants you to buy two other 400+ page core books, just because the designers (or more probable, FFG's marketing department) claims that a tram consisting out of two smugglers in a rusty space freighter, an agent of the Rebel Alliance and a young Jedi from a backwater planet require some mixing-and-matching to achieve.

    A digital dice roller doesn’t solve any of the game’s problems, actually. It adds two new ones, though: You take away the shiny colourful dice as a haptic toys and you have to tolerate the use of electronic devices at the gaming table, which is a solution akin to cutting off your own foot so you can’t stub your toes anymore.
    The problem with the dice system is the same with the rest of the game: it is just colourful, but it achieves very little that a more streamlined game like Rocket Age, to pick another retro-ish Space Opera system, doesn't do with just two humble d6. Effectively, you have six possible outcomes to answer the question: Did I succeed? :

    success with advantage (yes, and...)
    plain success (yes)
    success with disadvantage (yes, but...)
    failure with advantage (no, but...)
    plain failure (no)
    failure with disadvantage (no, and...)

    There is no reason or advantage whatsoever from a gameplay perspective to differentiate between the success/failure and the advantage/disadvantage axis. It is sure nice to have these more differentiated outcomes, but since success with advantage is just plain better than a plain success, and a success with disadvantage is a step down the ladder, but better than failure with advantage, these results are just aligned along a single track.
    Counting the enablers of success/failure and advantage/disadvantage on two different tracks just makes the game more complex for the sake of complexity. And yes, I am aware that Edge of Empire uses two different motes for advantage with triumph and doom(?) besides advantage/threat. Having not, just two, but even three things which all achieve thematically exactly the same outcome with some minor, but distinct differences, is not a good way to design a game. It slows down the resolution of tasks and creates the illusion of adding something deeper and more elaborate than it actually is. In that sense, Edge of the Empire is literally a pretentious game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    I definetly would like to add that the system is a lot more about flow of story rather than drilled down tactical simulator.
    Pretty much all people I know who thoroughly enjoy the ffg Star Wars games do so by ignoring quite a lot of the rules. For instance, the game isn't written for "quick on your feet thinking". The effects of advantage and disadvantage are often hard-coded. There is so much added crunch in form of talents to remember and apply. When it comes to the interpretation of results, there are some choices to make, but this is a very dense, very crunchy game that claims to be a free-flowing narrative game. When compared to something as restrictive as D20, it very well might be (at least in comparison), but when comparing to an actual quick free-flowing game for open play (let's say primeval 2d6 it really, truly isn't. I would rather put Edge of Empire, complexity-wise, in a similiar tier as Shadowrun, or Vampire with all Splatbooks enabled.

    If you are fine to play the game as somewhat adjacent to the actual rules, that is perfectly fine by me. I'm very much a " rules ar guidelines" gamemaster, and every game, sufficienty houseruled, nears perfection (and eveery non-perfect game hasn't been sufficiently houseruled). But: using something in vincitiy to the actual rules by default isn't exactly a great endorsementof the rules, is it?

    Somewhere within the ffg games, there is the potential of a truly great Star Wars game, even with the gimmicky dice. As it is, it seems to be a game more designed from a marketing perspective than from perspective of playability, and the result is, unfortuantely, one of wasted potential and a lot of frustration.

    Now, Star Wars D6 (the 80s kid choice) on the other hand isn't a perfect game, by a long shot, either. By modern standards, the game is quite clunky has some needless elements (like counting ammo, when prety much any weapon the PCs will use has about a hundred shots per energy cell) and is at times hilariously unbalanced (to be fair, I consider balance to be a mostly neutral aspect of the game, similar to dice roll transparency. It may be nice to have a balanced game, but it might also be necessary to have clearly better an inferior options, simply from a standpoint of verisimilitude. As usual, games, that don't bother with forcing some form of artificial balancing into the game can create a much better niche protection at times, because the characters can develop more organically). It is however, also extremely simple, both to learn, and to play. Roll a bunch of dice, add up, compare to difficulty. That's a very fast way to handle the game, and it is greatly speeds up play - exactly what you want for a quick witted, fast and loose space adventure (once you ditched the initiative system, anyway. Again, that game is clunky).
    Last edited by Black Jester; 2022-08-04 at 03:32 PM.
    Play the world, not the rules. Numbers don't add up to a game - ideas do.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    One fix for the Jedi issue in D6 is to change Control, Sense and alter into Attributes and each Force power into a skill. Still keep the 10cp to learn a force attribute at 1D, then the force user needs a tutor to teach them the basic skill, then they can improve from there. If the force power has multiple Force attributes needed then the skill is added to each attribute.

    Control:2D
    Sense:1D
    Alter: 1D

    Telekinisis: 2D
    Lightsaber combat: 3D

    If the player wanted to use telekinsis they roll 3D, for lightsaber combat they roll Control 5D and Sense of 4D.

    Alternatively, you could split the skills further, so you have Lightsaber Combat - Sense, and Lightsaber Combat - Alter.
    Last edited by Lupis2004; 2022-08-05 at 05:09 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    I *wanted* to like the game, a lot, actually. I like Star Wars as an RPG setting. I am a huge fan of games that treat success not just as a binary success/failure question but adds another layer to it.
    I also like beautiful things to look at, and this is a gorgeous game, very well layouted and with beautiful artwork. The colourful dice are also intriguing, stimulating your monkey brain going "colourful, nice" and the symbols being all mystic grants another layer to a visually intriguing game. On a pure aesthetic level, the version we playtested (Edge of Empire) is a fine game.
    Unfortunately, that is almost all the game has to offer to me: it sure looks beautiful. But under this gorgeous façade it is also overdesigned, written sloppy as hell, and bloated. Edge of Empire is a 400+ page tome (twice as long as the Star Wars D6 core book, just for comparison, and that is for an incomplete game, that wants you to buy two other 400+ page core books, just because the designers (or more probable, FFG's marketing department) claims that a tram consisting out of two smugglers in a rusty space freighter, an agent of the Rebel Alliance and a young Jedi from a backwater planet require some mixing-and-matching to achieve.


    Pretty much all people I know who thoroughly enjoy the ffg Star Wars games do so by ignoring quite a lot of the rules. For instance, the game isn't written for "quick on your feet thinking". The effects of advantage and disadvantage are often hard-coded. There is so much added crunch in form of talents to remember and apply. When it comes to the interpretation of results, there are some choices to make, but this is a very dense, very crunchy game that claims to be a free-flowing narrative game. When compared to something as restrictive as D20, it very well might be (at least in comparison), but when comparing to an actual quick free-flowing game for open play (let's say primeval 2d6 it really, truly isn't. I would rather put Edge of Empire, complexity-wise, in a similiar tier as Shadowrun, or Vampire with all Splatbooks enabled.

    If you are fine to play the game as somewhat adjacent to the actual rules, that is perfectly fine by me. I'm very much a " rules ar guidelines" gamemaster, and every game, sufficienty houseruled, nears perfection (and eveery non-perfect game hasn't been sufficiently houseruled). But: using something in vincitiy to the actual rules by default isn't exactly a great endorsementof the rules, is it?

    Somewhere within the ffg games, there is the potential of a truly great Star Wars game, even with the gimmicky dice. As it is, it seems to be a game more designed from a marketing perspective than from perspective of playability, and the result is, unfortuantely, one of wasted potential and a lot of frustration.

    Now, Star Wars D6 (the 80s kid choice) on the other hand isn't a perfect game, by a long shot, either. By modern standards, the game is quite clunky has some needless elements (like counting ammo, when prety much any weapon the PCs will use has about a hundred shots per energy cell) and is at times hilariously unbalanced (to be fair, I consider balance to be a mostly neutral aspect of the game, similar to dice roll transparency. It may be nice to have a balanced game, but it might also be necessary to have clearly better an inferior options, simply from a standpoint of verisimilitude. As usual, games, that don't bother with forcing some form of artificial balancing into the game can create a much better niche protection at times, because the characters can develop more organically). It is however, also extremely simple, both to learn, and to play. Roll a bunch of dice, add up, compare to difficulty. That's a very fast way to handle the game, and it is greatly speeds up play - exactly what you want for a quick witted, fast and loose space adventure (once you ditched the initiative system, anyway. Again, that game is clunky).
    There's a difference between the hardcoded mechanical effects (2 disadvantage to make you drop your weapon) and the narrative behind it (the untrained senator takes a shot, but didnt brace properly and the weapon goes flying), and it's on the GM to choose mechanical effects that fit the narrative, and not force the narrative to fit the best possible mechanical effect, over and over again. As for "making stuff up", let me point out the "alter the battlefield in your favor" result is just as valid as any of the others.

    Also, Edge of Empire has everything you need to run an "Old Ben" jedi. Not a post-prequel Kenobi, of course, because that's out of the scope of ANH, SOLO and The Mandolorian type stories that Edge of empire is telling. But enough for someone starting at 0 XP to dump physical stats for FR2 and have had mystical powers all along as the party gains XP, waving hands at stormtroopers and arthritically holding off the big bad for the party to escape. Han is a Smuggler, Leia is a noble, Luke is a fringer who picks up Force powers after creation.

    Age of Rebellion, on the other hand, is build around ESB, Rogue One, Clone Wars, and military stories like Starship Troopers: Roughnecks. (the animated one). The classes are compatible with Edge, but the Duty mechanic (as opposed to Obligation) reframes everything to reinforce the paramilitary theme, and the classes and GM advice are refocused for the different genera that the game supports. You can still play a Luke Skywalker, a thinly veiled mass effect biotic, or a military psychic like Starship Troopers had, without picking up any of the other books. Han is an Ace, Leia is a Diplomat.

    Force and Destiny is specifically for prequel and EU fans, where jedi supremacy takes center stage. This book specifically includes the "starting at higher XP" rules just so people can play their Anakins and Darth Mauls while still being fair to the "mundane" Pre Visula's and IG88s in the party. The mysticisim takes center stage here.
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2022-08-05 at 06:03 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    Pretty much all people I know who thoroughly enjoy the ffg Star Wars games do so by ignoring quite a lot of the rules. For instance, the game isn't written for "quick on your feet thinking". The effects of advantage and disadvantage are often hard-coded. There is so much added crunch in form of talents to remember and apply. When it comes to the interpretation of results, there are some choices to make, but this is a very dense, very crunchy game that claims to be a free-flowing narrative game. When compared to something as restrictive as D20, it very well might be (at least in comparison), but when comparing to an actual quick free-flowing game for open play (let's say primeval 2d6 it really, truly isn't. I would rather put Edge of Empire, complexity-wise, in a similiar tier as Shadowrun, or Vampire with all Splatbooks enabled.

    If you are fine to play the game as somewhat adjacent to the actual rules, that is perfectly fine by me. I'm very much a " rules ar guidelines" gamemaster, and every game, sufficienty houseruled, nears perfection (and eveery non-perfect game hasn't been sufficiently houseruled). But: using something in vincitiy to the actual rules by default isn't exactly a great endorsementof the rules, is it?

    Somewhere within the ffg games, there is the potential of a truly great Star Wars game, even with the gimmicky dice. As it is, it seems to be a game more designed from a marketing perspective than from perspective of playability, and the result is, unfortuantely, one of wasted potential and a lot of frustration.

    Now, Star Wars D6 (the 80s kid choice) on the other hand isn't a perfect game, by a long shot, either. By modern standards, the game is quite clunky has some needless elements (like counting ammo, when prety much any weapon the PCs will use has about a hundred shots per energy cell) and is at times hilariously unbalanced (to be fair, I consider balance to be a mostly neutral aspect of the game, similar to dice roll transparency. It may be nice to have a balanced game, but it might also be necessary to have clearly better an inferior options, simply from a standpoint of verisimilitude. As usual, games, that don't bother with forcing some form of artificial balancing into the game can create a much better niche protection at times, because the characters can develop more organically). It is however, also extremely simple, both to learn, and to play. Roll a bunch of dice, add up, compare to difficulty. That's a very fast way to handle the game, and it is greatly speeds up play - exactly what you want for a quick witted, fast and loose space adventure (once you ditched the initiative system, anyway. Again, that game is clunky).
    I personally think the best system to play a Star Wars game would be Savage World. Its pulpy, its violent.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupis2004 View Post
    One fix for the Jedi issue in D6 is to change Control, Sense and alter into Attributes and each Force power into a skill. Still keep the 10cp to learn a force attribute at 1D, then the force user needs a tutor to teach them the basic skill, then they can improve from there. If the force power has multiple Force attributes needed then the skill is added to each attribute.

    Control:2D
    Sense:1D
    Alter: 1D

    Telekinisis: 2D
    Lightsaber combat: 3D

    If the player wanted to use telekinsis they roll 3D, for lightsaber combat they roll Control 5D and Sense of 4D.

    Alternatively, you could split the skills further, so you have Lightsaber Combat - Sense, and Lightsaber Combat - Alter.
    My solution was opposite... Force was an Attribute, and Control, Sense, and Alter were skills under the attribute. What the force powers could be was specializations.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Our solution was also pretty simple, no Jedi as PCs. Only as NPCs.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Our solution was also pretty simple, no Jedi as PCs. Only as NPCs.
    No *full fledged Jedi* PC

    But.. you know.. raw force users? Yhea why not. Sure, if you actually roleplay as trying to be in tune with the Force, or actively use the Dark Side, you may invest points to boost your affinity with the Force.

    But being a Jedi is a completely different pair of pants. You need to find one, or writings of Jedi, to learn their meditation and training techniques, as well as their technological knowledge of Lightsabers.

    And when you light one, it becomes an Inquisitor Beacon.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    My solution was opposite... Force was an Attribute, and Control, Sense, and Alter were skills under the attribute. What the force powers could be was specializations.
    So, a bit of expansion on this.

    If you did not have a Force attribute, you were not Force Sensitive. We still allowed you to acquire Force sensitivity, as in the book, but that put you at 1D in the Force Attribute, and the subject to the rules for increasing attributes (with the slight change that your "racial maximum" for Force Attribute was a number of dice equal to your current force points; if you had 5 Force Points, you rolled against a 5D).

    If you put dice in Force at character creation, it's an Attribute die. If you put it in Force Skills, it's Skill dice. You will start the game with your number of Force Dice in Force Points, and there is no real limit to how high you can make your Force Attribute, save by the minimums of your race. Humans have 18D, and must have 2D in the standard attributes, so you can put 6D in Force, if you like (Anakin was probably closer to 4D in Force, and was rare; he pretty clearly had some dice or pips in Dexterity, Mechanical, and Technical).

    To learn Force Powers, you have to learn Force skills... you cannot learn a power until you have at least a pip in the related force skills.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Bouncing some ideas for a Star Wars campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    My Wild Die rules were:

    If you rolled a 1, you removed the highest other die and the 1, resulting in a smaller die pool.

    If you would have failed with the full die pool, you had a critical failure. This might be Han trying to con in the detention area... so bad that they became wildly suspicious and sent immediate security.

    If you failed because of the subtracted die, you failed.

    If you succeeded in spite of the subtracted die, you had a "Yes, and" situation... you still did succeeded, but something unexpected happened not necessarily bad). This might be Luke blasting the controls for the bridge. He did what he set out to do, but there was a complication that impacted the next action.
    I like those rules. I am stealing them.

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