Help Need: Stating it, hoping they won't kill it

[Shockwave]

That may be considered a little click baity

I'm trying to build an NPC, that ultimately is never going to see the PC's let alone be in a position to be killed by them. In such a situation I would normally do some very basic Generalisations and look to hand wave anything else should the need arise.

However, I am slowly (very slowly) trying to become more familiar with 3.5, and as a training exercise, I thought I'd go somewhat deeper in to the capabilities in an attempt to understand the system a bit better. And was hoping to draw on the collective pool of knowledge here.

So the Character in question

• Comes from a Conquering Magocracy.
  
  She would be the top 5, if not top 3 wizards from that nation.
  
  Race is Grey Elf
  
  The society is Lawful (Neutral/ Evil) (Law is the law, shame they benefit me more than you)
  
  She would be 900+ years old (I can explain if you want, but might be best to roll with it)
  
  She would of almost certainly been groomed from birth for the position, or at least from a young age
  
  She is an Enchantress with a heavy side in Illusions (No Dad magic here)
  
  She is the Governor of a Very large area (320 miles by 540) though most has been lost, she is expected to "Claim it back"
  
  She is pretty, probably beautiful
  
  She has killed,
  

I was originally looking at HIGH level Specialist Wizard, possibly Focus Specialist, with 5 levels in Nightmare Spinner. I had also entertained Mindbender.

But none of these are early on or come with the suitable class skills.

Also, I have no real idea on Feats, I definitely have no idea how to combo them.

So yeah, hoping you can help me out with classes and levels, Feats and combo's there in that make her capable.

[Particle_Man]

Well if you like enchantment and illusion already, why not go beguiler for more skill points and more class skills and even a few more hp and BAB?

As for being hard to kill, make her hard to find or identify. Whenever the party kills somebody they think is her they find the note saying “I am sorry Mario but the princess is in another castle”.

[MultitudeMan]

The Social Proficiency Enchanter gains Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills, plus a +2 bonus to one of them every 5 levels. It also loses the wizard bonus feats, thus reducing the bewildering range of feat combinations, so win-win .

[H_H_F_F]

The master specialist class from complete mage is all about enhancing what specialist wizard already does, if you're interested in looking at that.

In general, making a strong wizard is all about spell choices and contingencies. If you just improvise when/if the party attacks her ("Umm, meteor swarm! That's a strong spell!") you'll find she's much weaker than the playground has led you to believe wizards are. You need to think about the spells she has already cast days and weeks ago, about the preparations she's made at her home, about how she would defend herself from attack by other high level casters, who can scry and teleport an entire party to her face.

If you spend some time on that, you'll realize what a monster a high-level wizard can be, and what makes them so much more powerful than, say, a sorcerer.

[Shockwave]

[QUOTE=Particle_Man;25510238]Well if you like enchantment and illusion already, why not go beguiler for more skill points and more class skills and even a few more hp and BAB?

If I was looking for a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard, Beguiler would be a perfect fit.

TheSocial Proficiency Enchanter gains Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive as class skills, plus a +2 bonus to one of them every 5 levels. It also loses the wizard bonus feats, thus reducing the bewildering range of feat combinations, so win-win .

I had seen this previously, and it is a good fit, but my lack of knowledge made me think that the loss of Feats, would not be worth the Class Skill gain. Add in that it is an either/or situation between Social Enchanter and Focused Specialist.... Not sure, BUT you have made me think about it again.

The master specialist class from complete mage is all about enhancing what specialist wizard already does, if you're interested in looking at that.

Master specialist would be an amazing choice for almost any other specialist wizard, but for Enchanter, what you gain, at the total level you will be, is, as a friend would say "The Juice is not worth the squezze"

As for being hard to kill, make her hard to find or identify. Whenever the party kills somebody they think is her they find the note saying “I am sorry Mario but the princess is in another castle”.

In general, making a strong wizard is all about spell choices and contingencies. If you just improvise when/if the party attacks her ("Umm, meteor swarm! That's a strong spell!") you'll find she's much weaker than the playground has led you to believe wizards are. You need to think about the spells she has already cast days and weeks ago, about the preparations she's made at her home, about how she would defend herself from attack by other high level casters, who can scry and teleport an entire party to her face.

If you spend some time on that, you'll realize what a monster a high-level wizard can be, and what makes them so much more powerful than, say, a sorcerer.

I think, you've placed to much weight on the title (My fault). IF the players end encountering her in an adversarial situation, she would be very well prepared for them, or would immediately run. I'm not asking for help in regards to ideas to defend/ prep against PC's, more a better understanding of what 3.5 version of 2e NPC should look like in regards to power level.

[Jervis]

As the resident Sha’ir enthusiast I have to recommend starting her as a Sha’ir instead of a wizard. Same spell list but a charisma caster. Also no spell book, instead they can just kinda prepare any wizard spell they’ve seen cast, with some slightly jank rules. The silver tongue feat from Dragon Magazine 318 literally turns diplomacy, a skill a Sha’ir will have in spades, into seduction. Well it does a lot more than that but one bullet point lets you inspire romantic feelings if your diplomacy is high enough. Not as many questionable implications as enchantment spells.

Also notable that Sha’ir is both a divine and arcane caster so the right combination of feats and PRCs lets you use divine metamagic with wizard spells. Incantrix is probably better but that’s besides the point.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I had seen this previously, and it is a good fit, but my lack of knowledge made me think that the loss of Feats, would not be worth the Class Skill gain. Add in that it is an either/or situation between Social Enchanter and Focused Specialist.... Not sure, BUT you have made me think about it again.

You're very likely not taking more than 5 levels of wizard anyway, so Social Enchanter only ever costs you one feat at most.
If you go Master Specialist (which you can enter at level 4) you don't actually lose anything.

It's also not incompatible with Focused Specialist. They trade different class features (bonus feats and spell slots, respectively) so you can take both if you want to.
I wouldn't suggest it though. Since you're planning on keeping both enchantment and illusion banning three schools will be incredibly painful - and even if you decide it's worth it you're better off doing it for Incantatrix, because you really don't want to ban 4 (you'd pretty much have to lose conjuration and transmutation on top of necromancy and evocation. Not worth it.).

Master specialist would be an amazing choice for almost any other specialist wizard, but for Enchanter, what you gain, at the total level you will be, is, as a friend would say "The Juice is not worth the squezze"

It's fine until level 3 or 4. You don't have to take all 10 levels of it.
As an enchanter you want to boost spell DC's anyway so the free GSF is nice and the Minor School Esoterica is useful enough to be worth considering.
It also gives you SF:Spellcraft which helps if you want to get into Archmage - Arcane Reach and Mastery of Counterspelling are quite useful for pretty much any wizard, so it should at least be considered. And it's one of the very few PrC's you can enter before level 6.

Normally it competes against Spontaneous Divination but if you're taking Social Enchanter there's literally no reason not to take at least two levels of Master Specialist because staying until wizard 5 doesn't get you anything.

Mindbender is something you take one level of for the telepathy (to qualify for Mindsight). You should have the skills to qualify pretty much automatically if you took Social Enchanter so there's no reason not to.

After that you can either go Incantatrix (though you'd have to ban either conjuration or transmutation for it which is painful) or Nightmare Spinner, though Wild Soul is also a decent choice for this build that helps both illusions and enchantments.

For feats i'd seriously consider Shape Soulmeld:Charming Veil and Bonus Essentia for an easy +4 DC to your compulsion spells. Mindsight is a must if you take the Mindbender level, Spell Focus to qualify for Master Specialist.
If you want to make your spells harder to find and counter Shadow Weave Magic not only increases DC for both illusion and enchantment spells but also qualifies you for Shadow Adept, a single level in which gives you three bonus feats which together make your spells much harder to find, dispel or resist.

[Maat Mons]

I imagine a magocracy would associate personal prestige with breadth of magical mastery, not just depth. So I think it would be a hard sell to convince someone from such a society to give up access to several schools of magic.

I'd consider making her an Elven Generalist Wizard (Races of the Wild, p157). She wouldn't give up any magical access, but she'd still gain an extra spell slot of her highest level. She wouldn't gain a bonus spell slot of every level, like a specialist would, but hey, even the weakest school of magic, Evocation, has a spell that's hard to give up, Contingency.

The Spellsinger PrC (Races of Fearun, p185) would seem themaic. Though to get in, you'll need to Spontaneous Divination ACF (Complete Champion, p52). and to get in in a timely manner, you'll probably need the Apprentice (Entertainer) feat (Dungeon Master's Guide II, p176). Or Maybe Aeranei Focus (Player's Guide to Eberron, p20. Spellsinger lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells to Enchantment spells from your spell list, even Enchantment spells you don't actually have in your spellbook. Though the enchantment spell you convert to has to be a level lower than the prepared spell you expend.

The Heartwarder PrC (Faiths and Pantheons, p196) might also be thematic, but it's got crappy prerequisites.

[Bullet06320]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...alist-Handbook
A special handbook for masters: The Master Specialist Handbook

its worth taking a look at master specialist for at least of couple levels for any specialist, its super easy entry requirements, all gain, no real loss

[MinimanMidget]

If you're looking at Nightmare Spinner, you should probably also be looking at Dread Witch.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Spellsinger PrC (Races of Fearun, p185) would seem themaic. Though to get in, you'll need to Spontaneous Divination ACF (Complete Champion, p52). and to get in in a timely manner, you'll probably need the Apprentice (Entertainer) feat (Dungeon Master's Guide II, p176). Or Maybe Aeranei Focus (Player's Guide to Eberron, p20. Spellsinger lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells to Enchantment spells from your spell list, even Enchantment spells you don't actually have in your spellbook. Though the enchantment spell you convert to has to be a level lower than the prepared spell you expend.

It also sets the enchantments DC to cha + spell level +2, 8 points lower than the default. You'd have to heavily optimize your DC's just to break even.
Which makes using it for offensive enchantments - all of which rely on high save DC's - completely useless even on a bard, let alone a caster who isn't cha-based.

[Maat Mons]

My bad. Misread that as "+12."

[sleepyphoenixx]

My bad. Misread that as "+12."

Yeah, i had that moment of realization too.
First i thought "oh hey why isn't this PrC talked about more?" because getting all enchantment spells on his list spontaneously is a pretty sweet buff for a bard.
Sure, it's all mind-affecting, but that's a lot of extra spells "known" even at 1 level higher.

Unfortunately at an effective -8 to DCs it's pretty much pointless except for a few buffs that don't care about saves. It's a little much on top of the spell level cost.
You can make it work, but you'll probably be spending most of your feats and a lot of WBL just on breaking even with casting normally. And bards aren't exactly flush with excess feats to spend.
With the existence of runestaffs there just isn't much of a point.

I think it might have been intended to be 10 + level + cha + 2 (which would balance out the higher level and make it a pretty decent feature) but afaik there's never been an errata.

[Shockwave]

I wanted to reply to this post on its own due to the wealth of info here.

You're very likely not taking more than 5 levels of wizard anyway, so Social Enchanter only ever costs you one feat at most.
If you go Master Specialist (which you can enter at level 4) you don't actually lose anything.

It's also not incompatible with Focused Specialist. They trade different class features (bonus feats and spell slots, respectively) so you can take both if you want to.
I wouldn't suggest it though. Since you're planning on keeping both enchantment and illusion banning three schools will be incredibly painful - and even if you decide it's worth it you're better off doing it for Incantatrix, because you really don't want to ban 4 (you'd pretty much have to lose conjuration and transmutation on top of necromancy and evocation. Not worth it.).

After looking at Incantatrix, while I'm no doubt missing something, I don't like it and it doesn't fit in with the world view I have, so I think I will be staying with Focused Social Master Enchantress.

It also gives you SF:Spellcraft which helps if you want to get into Archmage - Arcane Reach and Mastery of Counterspelling are quite useful for pretty much any wizard, so it should at least be considered. And it's one of the very few PrC's you can enter before level 6.

Going to need to take another look at Archmage, though I'm not sure it fits thematically, I didn't see what it brings in either.

Mindbender is something you take one level of for the telepathy (to qualify for Mindsight). You should have the skills to qualify pretty much automatically if you took Social Enchanter so there's no reason not to.

The Mendbinder telepathy never mentioned LOS, so I thought that I'd be able to "Search" for minds. Mindsight does bring more to the table, not sure it's worth the Feat slot (though she does have a few slots)

After that you can either go Incantatrix (though you'd have to ban either conjuration or transmutation for it which is painful) or Nightmare Spinner, though Wild Soul is also a decent choice for this build that helps both illusions and enchantments.

For feats i'd seriously consider Shape Soulmeld:Charming Veil and Bonus Essentia for an easy +4 DC to your compulsion spells

. I've tried to look for these, and what little I can find on them, looks like it changes too much to the way Arcane Magic already works in my world

If you want to make your spells harder to find and counter Shadow Weave Magic not only increases DC for both illusion and enchantment spells but also qualifies you for Shadow Adept, a single level in which gives you three bonus feats which together make your spells much harder to find, dispel or resist.

Interesting suggestion, though I feel it makes the characters a little too busy/ messy. More so considering the amount of experience I have with 3.5.

[Shockwave]

I imagine a magocracy would associate personal prestige with breadth of magical mastery, not just depth. So I think it would be a hard sell to convince someone from such a society to give up access to several schools of magic.

Overall that would be an in characters political discussion, though I have already decided that primary metric is total caster levels and number of max level spells

A special handbook for masters: The Master Specialist Handbook

its worth taking a look at master specialist for at least of couple levels for any specialist, its super easy entry requirements, all gain, no real loss

I did, and thank you. Pretty much confirm my interpretation in regards which schools benefit the most from it.

If you're looking at Nightmare Spinner, you should probably also be looking at Dread Witch.

And I now have. Thank you.


A question for you all.
In your opinion, how many total levels should such a character have?

[InvisibleBison]

In your opinion, how many total levels should such a character have?

If I was running a normal D&D game, I'd start by giving them 100 xp per year they spent working at a significant job or task of some sort, then add more for whatever combat encounters I've put in their history, then increase or decrease their level if they didn't end up at something I'd consider reasonable. But this is actually a setting-specific question, so what works in my world may not work in yours.

[MinimanMidget]

A question for you all.
In your opinion, how many total levels should such a character have?

In general, I'd go with however many you need to fulfill the concept. You don't want this NPC to get murdered, so more is probably better anyway.

[Shockwave]

Cause no one wants to see Marshall no more, or at least according to a friend that knows 3.5e far better than I

So, spent the week brainstorming working and reworking ideas, and this is the result (Not 100% Complete).

Thank you for all your suggestions, even if you don't see your idea here, you probably inspired some thought

Krypros, Overgovernor of the Province of Barsaive, Beguiler of the court of Dengar, Enchantress of the Lofoten Isles and Mistress of the Mind.

Female Grey Elf, Age: Approx 900, Hit Points: 46
Stats (Base/ Race/ Final)
Str 10 / 8 / 8
Dex 14 / 16 / 16
Con 10 / 8 / 8
Int 15 / 17 / 21 (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th)
Wis 12 / 12 / 12
Cha 14 / 14 / 16 (20th, 24th)


Class's and Levels (In order obtained)
3 Lvls Beguiler (PHB 2) (Sorcerer) (Cantrip 6, 1st Level 7 (Includes Intelligence bonus))
- 0 Level: dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message, open/close, read magic. 1st Level: charm person, colour spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, expeditious retreat, hypnotism, mage armour, obscuring mist, SLEEP
- Armoured mage, trapfinding, cloaked casting (+1 DC), surprise casting, Advanced learning (Sleep)

5 Levels Focused Enchantress(Complete Mage pg 34) (8 total levels) (Prohibited Schools - Evocation, Necromancy and Transmutation)
- Bonus Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment, +1DC)

6 Levels Master Specialist (Complete Mage pg70) (14 total Levels)
- Non-standard spells [4th] Modify Memory, [6th] Song of Discord (S&S pg95)
- Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment, +1 DC)
- Minor School Esoterica (Ex), Caster Level Increase (Ex, Enchantment)

1 Level Mindbender (Complete Arcane pg 54) (15 total Levels)
- Telepathy (Su)

5 Levels Nightmare Spinner (Complete Mage pg74) (20 total Levels)
- Immunity to Fear (Su): Inspire Fear (Su): Nightmare Phantasm (Su): Spirit Chill (Su): Deadly Nightmare (Su):

4 Levels Archmage (DMG pg 178) (24 Total Levels)
- 4x High Arcana (Arcane Fire (9th lvl slot lost), Arcane Reach (7th lvl slot lost), Mastery of Counterspelling (8th lvl slot lost), To be Confirmed)

Feats (Total) in order of acquired
- [1st] Persuasive (Song and Silence pg40), [3rd] Trustworthy (S&S pg40), [6th] Alluring (S&S pg38), [6th] Bonus Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment), [9th] Spell Focus (Illusion), [9th] Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), [11th] Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), [12th] Touch of Distraction (reserve, Complete Mage pg48), [15th] Silent Spell, [15th] Telepathy, [18th] Still Spell, [21st] Metamagic School Focus (Enchantment), [24th] TBC

Skills (Only required listed, along with min-rank), Total Skill points available (197)
- Bluff 4 (+2), Intimidate 4 (+2), Sense Motive 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 15, Spell Craft 15 (+3), Diplomacy 4 (+4), Gather Info 0 (+2)

Spells - Prepare-able Slots (Gen / Enc / Illu)
[0th] 4, [1st] 5/ 3/ 1, [2nd] 4/ 3/1, [3rd] 4/ 3/ 1, [4th] 4/ 3/ 1, [5th] 4/ 2/ 1, [6th] 3/ 3/ 1, [7th] 3/ 2/ 1, [8th] 3/ 2 /1, [9th] 3/ 2/ 1
Caster Level: General 20, Enchantment 21,

[KoDT69]

What's funny is I have had the same thought process before. Try to stay and build something to player-proof it without just DM fiat armor. But that just showcases one of the coolest yet infuriating aspects of 3rd edition in general. Everything gets a stat block. The problem is that once it has a stat block it CAN be killed. Deities and Demigods had to be one of the worst offences. Outlining rules for gods? Bad idea!

[thethird]

She would be the top 5, if not top 3 wizards from that nation.

What's the general power level of the most powerful mages of your setting?

Level 6? Level 30? Level 20? Level 12?

Personal suggestion:
Wizard 4 / Beguiler 1 / Utimate magus 6 (as a basis)

As a wizard become a generalist (yes I know about your focus on illusions on enchantment, let me explain later). The elven wizard alternative class levels (for more spells known), and the domain wizard acf (here you can take illusion if you want).
Beguiler is your bread and butter illusion stuff and you should grab practiced spellcaster for it, this allows ultimate magus to treat Beguiler levels higher than wizard and makes ultimate magus progress wizard more easily.

From there you have several options
-mindbender is a good dip (and you can use the lvl feat for mindsight).
-if you don't mind loosing progression on wizard you can continue taking ultimate magus lvls.
-if you don't mind loosing wizard progression you can take one lvl of spellthief and master spellthief for more cl shenanigans. But the rules interactions of this are funky.
-you can go Incanter, in fact if you are going Incanter you might want to stop at ultimate magus 5, so you can get the capstone.

As for spells, let everyone believe that you are focused on enchantment and illusions, use a lot of enchantments and illusions, but deep down keep a cache of every spell that comes your way (or that you inherited from your parents / extended family in the magocracy over 900 years).

[Shockwave]

What's the general power level of the most powerful mages of your setting?

Level 6? Level 30? Level 20? Level 12?

As you can see from my last post, she come in at level 24. You don't get on the "council" unless you can cast level 9 spells
In fact, I'm entertaining the idea that most/ all level 9 spells were created by members of this council.

As a wizard become a generalist (yes I know about your focus on illusions on enchantment, let me explain later). The elven wizard alternative class levels (for more spells known),

You referring to Elf Wizard from Race's of the Wild pg157 ?

and the domain wizard acf (here you can take illusion if you want).

Where would I find this?

Beguiler is your bread and butter illusion stuff and you should grab practiced spellcaster for it, this allows ultimate magus to treat Beguiler levels higher than wizard and makes ultimate magus progress wizard more easily.

I don't know what these are

From there you have several options
-mindbender is a good dip (and you can use the lvl feat for mindsight).

This Feat has been on and off the list a couple of times now, and honestly it's power level bothers me.

-you can go Incanter, in fact if you are going Incanter you might want to stop at ultimate magus 5, so you can get the capstone.

Incanter as in Incantrix? I had a read of that, and didn't "get it" it didn't feel fitting for the character either.

As for spells, let everyone believe that you are focused on enchantment and illusions, use a lot of enchantments and illusions, but deep down keep a cache of every spell that comes your way (or that you inherited from your parents / extended family in the magocracy over 900 years).

I basically decided on doing that, but from the PoV of the Focused Specialist.

[thethird]

As you can see from my last post, she come in at level 24. You don't get on the "council" unless you can cast level 9 spells
In fact, I'm entertaining the idea that most/ all level 9 spells were created by members of this council.

Sorry I missed that. Are you going to be using epic magic? It can get pretty crazy.

You referring to Elf Wizard from Race's of the Wild pg157 ?

Yep

Quote would I find this?
I don't know what these are

Practiced spellcaster is a feat (from Complete Arcane) it gives you a +4 to caster lvl as long as it doesn't push it above your HD.

Ultimate magus is a prc from complete mage, it combines a spontaneous and a prepared arcane class. You can read more about it here

This Feat has been on and off the list a couple of times now, and honestly it's power level bothers me.

Ultimately we make suggestions and you can take whatever floats your boat. It's a good feat.

Incanter as in Incantrix? I had a read of that, and didn't "get it" it didn't feel fitting for the character either.

It gives you easy access to cheap(er) metamagic. Again just making recommendations if you feel it doesn't fit then it doesn't.

I basically decided on doing that, but from the PoV of the Focused Specialist.

Honestly I have trouble reconciling a character getting to lvl 24 while focusing on illusions and enchantment. But you might want a shadowcraft mage you will need to change some race prereqs but you are the dm. Check here, just be aware that that's much better being a gnome.

[Shockwave]

Sorry I missed that. Are you going to be using epic magic? It can get pretty crazy.

Only in an implied manner

Practiced spellcaster is a feat (from Complete Arcane) it gives you a +4 to caster lvl as long as it doesn't push it above your HD.

Ultimate magus is a prc from complete mage, it combines a spontaneous and a prepared arcane class. You can read more about it here

I've got those two, I'll have another look

Honestly I have trouble reconciling a character getting to lvl 24 while focusing on illusions and enchantment. But you might want a shadowcraft mage you will need to change some race prereqs but you are the dm. Check here, just be aware that that's much better being a gnome.

From a standard adventure(ing) point of view, I would a agree, but if someone was to spend pretty much their life in cities, doing social engineering, politicking and espionage, Charm and Illusion would (IMO) be their number tools.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Honestly I have trouble reconciling a character getting to lvl 24 while focusing on illusions and enchantment. But you might want a shadowcraft mage you will need to change some race prereqs but you are the dm. Check here, just be aware that that's much better being a gnome.

Illusion is actually one of the scarier schools if you build well.
Between Insidious Magic and Shadowcraft Mage True Seeing isn't much of a problem, and it's by far the easiest school to boost spell DCs for.
It also has some of the best defensive spells in the game on top of making you stealthy, so survivability really isn't an issue.

Enchantment works fine too.
Being immune to mind-affecting doesn't make you immune to dominated minion, and dedicating even a single slot per day to Dominate Person is enough to gather a very decent army over time.
It's also devastatingly effective against anything that isn't immune, having a couple of the most powerful debuffs in the game and being almost as easy as illusion to boost spell DC's for.
And every enemy you defeat potentially adds to your power in a way only a necromancer can even come close to matching.