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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonMoon6 View Post
    My impression is that people *think* that D&D can do a lot of the things that it absolutely cannot do well. Just like GURPS, D&D can do a lot of things, but often not well.

    ...

    It irks me when people think of D&D as the "does everything" game when it's really the "only does one sort of thing remotely well" kind of game.
    Sure, and I wasn't trying to imply D&D was unique or anything. It just gets it more often because of a mixture of a majority only considering it and common misinterpretations about what it does well. Common misinterpretations very happily supported by the designers and marketing.

    But even games that theoretically do every genre don't do everything well.

    As to high level D&D, it's not perfect. A couple of editions imply that high level magic is more common than it should be, and by this point you crossed the spellcaster/mundane turnover point over ten levels ago. It's not going to let you play gods anywhere near as easily as Nobilis will, for example, but you can kind of glue something together.

    Although if we have the power of gods I'd still rather play Nobilis/Glitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Sure, and I wasn't trying to imply D&D was unique or anything. It just gets it more often because of a mixture of a majority only considering it and common misinterpretations about what it does well. Common misinterpretations very happily supported by the designers and marketing.
    Indeed, D&D marketing has always been very happy to claim their system does things - often to the point of writing whole sourcebooks about those things, like 'intrigue' - that it is in fact quite terrible at. This is by no means unique to D&D - WW wrote whole game lines that were absolutely not about the thing that the promotional material claimed they were about at all, like Aberrant - but it looms larger because of D&D's outsize market share.

    Somewhat oddly for a relatively niche hobby, in the TTRPG marketplace there's a very significant sense that marketing is everything - that popularity is entirely dependent upon how cool the pitch is, how great the art looks, and so on and the mechanical solidity of a game is way, way down the list of reasons behind a game's popularity. Personally I suspect this has a lot to do with how very few tables play games anything like the rules as written and how a good GM can make a great game out even the most jaw-droppingly terrible of systems. Or, as freeform reveals, no system at all.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    There might be a generation/region/country gap here, but as a 51 YO Australian who's played with 3 main groups since 1990 and was part of a Uni roleplaying club, I've never been in a group that only played D&D except for a year or so in high school - and that was just one campaign.
    To me, this advice is entirely reasonable.

    When the current campaign ends you say to your group "Hi folks, I'm happy to run the next game. I've got an Idea for a Fate game set in a universe where anthopomophic animals all live on different planets. The party start as..."
    Anyone else wanting to run something put forward their offering and a decision is made.
    The last "game start up" I was involved with was when a friend offered a group that included one mutual friend and one who has played a bit in the past but not with anyone I know.
    He offered 5th ed D&D, a post apocalyptic mutant game, an Ars Magic apprentices game and a few other options.

    So a change of game normally requires you to sit behind the screen, at least until your group are used to trying different games, then you might get someone else to agree to run the one you really want.
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    There are so many people out that will define themselves like this "I am a D&D 5th ed player." Or "I play D&D 3.5."

    These comments are actually absurd. Like a carpenter saying they limit their tool set to 2 items. What? You are a role player or roll player that knows a certain rule set out of dozens of popular rule sets. As a community we need to focus on gameplay and not just a rule set. D&D is combat heavy, there are other rule sets out there that do political intrigue better, or more that do mystery better, or others that are group storytelling focused instead of relying on the DM the most.

    I say treat RPG games like we do board games. You play RISK, how about Axis and Allies instead. You play Monopoly, how about trying out Powergrid. You like the game of life, how about "Bring out Your Dead"? One can switch those games up without suddenly not liking Risk/Monopoly/Life. And next time you play you can go back to Risk.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    There are so many people out that will define themselves like this "I am a D&D 5th ed player." Or "I play D&D 3.5."

    These comments are actually absurd. Like a carpenter saying they limit their tool set to 2 items. What? You are a role player or roll player that knows a certain rule set out of dozens of popular rule sets. As a community we need to focus on gameplay and not just a rule set. D&D is combat heavy, there are other rule sets out there that do political intrigue better, or more that do mystery better, or others that are group storytelling focused instead of relying on the DM the most.

    I say treat RPG games like we do board games. You play RISK, how about Axis and Allies instead. You play Monopoly, how about trying out Powergrid. You like the game of life, how about "Bring out Your Dead"? One can switch those games up without suddenly not liking Risk/Monopoly/Life. And next time you play you can go back to Risk.
    While I like your post (we played Diplomacy long before we tried Risk, and playing one did not mean not playing the other ever again) tribal behavior of varying kinds is a semi natural human thing.
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    There was a movie based on an album by The Who {Quadrophenia} that explored some of the differences in tribal behaviors between the so called Mods and the so called Rockers.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-07-11 at 04:06 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Indeed, D&D marketing has always been very happy to claim their system does things - often to the point of writing whole sourcebooks about those things, like 'intrigue' - that it is in fact quite terrible at. This is by no means unique to D&D - WW wrote whole game lines that were absolutely not about the thing that the promotional material claimed they were about at all, like Aberrant - but it looms larger because of D&D's outsize market share.

    Somewhat oddly for a relatively niche hobby, in the TTRPG marketplace there's a very significant sense that marketing is everything - that popularity is entirely dependent upon how cool the pitch is, how great the art looks, and so on and the mechanical solidity of a game is way, way down the list of reasons behind a game's popularity. Personally I suspect this has a lot to do with how very few tables play games anything like the rules as written and how a good GM can make a great game out even the most jaw-droppingly terrible of systems. Or, as freeform reveals, no system at all.
    Oh, totally. There's a reason I've spent money on Hell on Earth Reloaded but not the other Deadlands settings, it's just a more enticing pitch for me ,( I do plan to get the others sometime, but not right now).

    A thing that's hard for those of us who like using mechanics is that for most people mechanical solidity of a game doesn't matter. They actually don't want to engage with mechanics that deeply, and so 'the D&D skill rules suck' isn't seen as a reason to avoid using it for skill-focusrd campaigns. It's also why this forum is used to D&D combats lasting six real life hours and twelve in-game seconds, instead of half an hour and half a dozen rounds. Most people don't care because they'll never engage with the subsystems or because home patches are easy.

    But I've yet to see a GM who could run a decent FATAL game. One who could run almost anything else, but the things in that book are better left untouched. Although FATAL probably failed/succeeded as hard as it did because of it's terrible 'marketing'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    I say treat RPG games like we do board games. You play RISK, how about Axis and Allies instead. You play Monopoly, how about trying out Powergrid. You like the game of life, how about "Bring out Your Dead"? One can switch those games up without suddenly not liking Risk/Monopoly/Life. And next time you play you can go back to Risk.
    There is a significant difference between RPGs and board games in terms of how much time they require, though. Even a one-shot is going to last longer than a game of nearly all board games, and a full campaign is on another level entirely. There's no comparison between "Hey, let's spend forty-five minutes playing this cool game I found next weekend" and "Let's play a six-month campaign of this cool game I found".
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Forty five minutes for a board game? That's relatively rare in my experience, and serious games can often have similar playtimes to an RPG session. Sometimes longer.

    I'd say either twenty minutes or two hours is normal, depending on if the game is meant to be quick or not. Shorter than an RPG session, but two hours can still be a big ask.

    (Campaigns are a different issue, but we shouldn't discount one shots.)
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2022-07-11 at 06:32 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Forty five minutes for a board game?
    I play blitz (in Go, where serious professional games can take several days), 10 minutes is probably longer than average (never timed it, couldn't care). I don't want to play slower, I get so annoyed waiting for my turn.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Forty five minutes for a board game? That's relatively rare in my experience, and serious games can often have similar playtimes to an RPG session. Sometimes longer.

    I'd say either twenty minutes or two hours is normal, depending on if the game is meant to be quick or not. Shorter than an RPG session, but two hours can still be a big ask.
    Yeah, forty-five minutes is probably an exaggeration. Though the need to go over the rules and answer questions and such like does make playing a game for the first time take a bit longer than normal.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    "Board games" covers a number of game genres with great variance in both set-up and play time. So does "roleplaying games". Most generalized "board games versus roleplaying games" hence only serve to demonstrate the person making the argument has not played enough different board and roleplaying games.

    To put some perspective to things: Finnish roleplaying convention Ropecon held a scenario design contest for years. Design goals for these scenarios included that a game group can pick them up with no prior knowledge of a game system, learn the relevant rules in 15 minutes and play through the scenario in 1 hour.

    This is one pool of dozens of short roleplaying games, if a short roleplaying game is what you want. If they don't make a splash in these kinds of discussions, it's ironically because they're distributed for free under license by a non-profit organization, instead of being put in a neat box and marketed with big money by a toy company.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    And there are absolutely board games that have six month campaigns. (Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death, any given legacy game).

    But yeah, there are some you can handle in an hour.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Yeah, forty-five minutes is probably an exaggeration. Though the need to go over the rules and answer questions and such like does make playing a game for the first time take a bit longer than normal.
    The rules for a new modern board game usually takes 45 minutes just to figure out and explain.

    But you're not wrong, once the rules are known board games tend to be in 2 hours to play range, from Monopoly yo Risk to Axis and Allies to Gloomhaven. Where-as the standard / norm for TTRPGs seems to be 4 hours for a session.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Where-as the standard / norm for TTRPGs seems to be 4 hours for a session.
    I wish. If I could actually get people to show up and participate for the full 4 hours (mostly on line play) I'd throw confetti.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Forty five minutes for a board game? That's relatively rare in my experience, and serious games can often have similar playtimes to an RPG session. Sometimes longer.

    I'd say either twenty minutes or two hours is normal, depending on if the game is meant to be quick or not. Shorter than an RPG session, but two hours can still be a big ask.

    (Campaigns are a different issue, but we shouldn't discount one shots.)
    Even twenty minute games tend to be played multiple times in an evening - a two-hour session sounds about right.

    This is why one-shots and open table campaigns can help - the investment is much, much lower. That and games that don't require front-loading of a ton of rules.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Personally I have no strong reason to hold four hour sessions specifically other than the fact that four hours is the minimum amount of work that will net a convention game master a free day ticket to the event. It would not surprise me at all if the standard originated from some event organization or organized play format.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Even twenty minute games tend to be played multiple times in an evening - a two-hour session sounds about right.

    This is why one-shots and open table campaigns can help - the investment is much, much lower. That and games that don't require front-loading of a ton of rules.
    I've played Apples to Apples derivatives for four straight hours before (in fact it's the only way I've played CAH). So yeah, I totally get what you mean about shorter games. The people I know who do regular board games afternoons/evenings generally run for four to six hours while playing two games, including multiple rounds of shorter games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Personally I have no strong reason to hold four hour sessions specifically other than the fact that four hours is the minimum amount of work that will net a convention game master a free day ticket to the event. It would not surprise me at all if the standard originated from some event organization or organized play format.
    It's also just a really good length for a weeknight game session. Savage Worlds points this out: you ask everyone to arrive at six, can be certain that everybody's turned up and has their food eaten or sorted by 7, and then stop at 11 so people can get home by midnight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Ours are weekly 7-10 and a lot of actual plays online clock in just under 3 hours for RPG sessions.

    This includes chit-chat time as well. Of course, that could be why we are on session 60 of CoS with no end in sight.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'm an Exalted fan. I'm lucky if I find a game at all.
    Was this always the case with Exalted? Or did the horrible 3rd Edition kill the game, like I knew it would?

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Local_Jerk View Post
    Was this always the case with Exalted? Or did the horrible 3rd Edition kill the game, like I knew it would?
    What!? Thats always been the case, if anything its the best its ever been, since 2nd edition's broken mechanics and horrible lore bits are no longer screwing things up. The only thing I don't like about it the edition is stuff that is relatively minor compared to all the things it fixed so that it function.

    Lunars are literally the best they've ever been, Exigents preview is out and is awesome and like funded to meet a bunch of stretch goals like all the other kicksters, DB's aside from being more likely to go to civil war and having more non-realm society detailed are the same in lore but mechanically better. the worst part of the edition is core because Solars don't have the experienced hand of other splats making their charmset not as efficient as others could be, but even then Solars work pretty well.

    Honestly, I'm probably just too lazy about where I search for a game online.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I wish. If I could actually get people to show up and participate for the full 4 hours (mostly on line play) I'd throw confetti.
    Pretty much all our sessions are 3-4 hours minimum. We've gone to 8 in some cases if you count food breaks.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  22. - Top - End - #112
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Pretty much all our sessions are 3-4 hours minimum. We've gone to 8 in some cases if you count food breaks.
    High school, we could manage 12. With kids and such? I get 3.5 hour sessions because most of my RPGs are library programs I am running.

    I may get to play again soon. Last time I can confirm I played was 2013.
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