A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I wouldn't say the other rings were forgotten... the Nazgul were a presence all through the movie, Gandalf was with the fellowship most of the time and used his ring extensively, and Galadriel and Elrond and their respective domains of Rivendell and Lothlorien appear too, as well as some displays of their power. Now yes, the dwarven rings don't show up, but then, the dwarven story was a sideshow told secondhand in the books, too, and entirely cut in the movies.

    I think mostly what the movies are unclear on is how much of the power these characters show is due to the rings, but then, the power of the rings being subtle is a major part of their story.
    But besides the One the Rings don't play a part in thr story. The Nazgul fon't even wear theirs, four of the Seven are destroyed and the rest in Sauron's hands, Galadriel shows her Ring to Frodo but doesn't use it. Elrond never shows his Ring and the fact that Gandalf's has one is only revealed in the epilogue. Yes Elrond and Galadriel are using theirs to distort time in their domains but that doesn't really affect the story and ultimately just adds to the "magical" feel of these elven places.
    Also Saruman claims to have forged a Ring of his own and that is never brought up again.

    And Peelee said he's only watched the movies, they remove the reveal of Gandalf having a Ring, Saruman having a Ring and the time-bending and attributes the flooding of the river near Rivendell to Arwen instead of Elrond (who may have used his Ring to do it but it wasn't shown). And Galadriel showing her Ring only happens in the director's cut.

    So I would say that it's completely fair to say that despite the plural in the title, The Lord of the Rings is only concerned with the One Ring. Doubly so for the movies.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I wouldn't say the other rings were forgotten... the Nazgul were a presence all through the movie, Gandalf was with the fellowship most of the time and used his ring extensively, and Galadriel and Elrond and their respective domains of Rivendell and Lothlorien appear too, as well as some displays of their power. Now yes, the dwarven rings don't show up, but then, the dwarven story was a sideshow told secondhand in the books, too, and entirely cut in the movies.
    The point is more that to movie-watchers who have never read the books, those rings weren't very relevant to the story. It's called "The Lord of the Rings" but there's really only one relevant ring.
    I think the Elven rings might be mentioned once or twice, but that's it.
    Even for the Nazgul it's more relevant that they are creepy ghost warriors riding almost-dragons than that they are ringbearers.

    And that aligns with the bigger picture here, I think: that the Amazon series isn't made for the book-lovers. Most people discussing it here are simply not the target audience. The target audience is the people who loved the LotR movies (and to a lesser extent the Hobbit movies).

    And those movies already included over the top action scenes and silly elven shenanigans, so obviously a series made for the same target audience will include that as well.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    And that aligns with the bigger picture here, I think: that the Amazon series isn't made for the book-lovers. Most people discussing it here are simply not the target audience. The target audience is the people who loved the LotR movies (and to a lesser extent the Hobbit movies).
    There are tens of millions of book fans for this franchise. Their number is sufficiently large that they can, and will, dominate the conversation surrounding this series if they wish. This is something that happens with fantasy. Fail to respect the source material and the fandom will range and that range is very much capable of poisoning the well if the show is merely mediocre - which many shows are, especially in season one. Now, Amazon seems to be willing to be big on its big projects - ex. greenlighting Wheel of Time Season 3 before anyone has seen a glimpse of season 2 - and that gives adaptations like this considerably more rope than those that show up on Netflix - which bringeth the axe in a hurry (I suspect that this may be because Amazon has tied its streaming service to Prime, which no one actually gets for media, and therefore the whole production studio is essentially playing with house money).

    And, it's perfectly possible to make a show that is in tune with both the Peter Jackson films and Tolkien's creation. There's a lot of room in the Second Age, and certain changes can be forgiven. For example, I'm fully onboard for the time compression - the Second Age has two major events that happen ~1500 apart. Linking them together is an obvious adjustment. I can even accept the presence of Hobbits as a bit of fan service. What's worrisome is material swirling around this series that suggests the people behind it don't understand why Tolkien built his world the way he did and that they'll produce something that superficially looks like Middle-Earth but completely misses the point.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There are tens of millions of book fans for this franchise. Their number is sufficiently large that they can, and will, dominate the conversation surrounding this series if they wish.
    I'm not saying that it's the best (financial) decision, just that it is the decision that Amazon has made.

    I know plenty of Tolkien lovers who think the Peter Jackson trilogy is terrible. They think it's one of the worst book-to-movie adaptations ever made.
    There are even more Tolkien lovers who hate The Hobbit trilogy.

    But for both series, there are also plenty of people who liked it (and both series made a boatload of money).
    I'm just saying that clearly Amazon has those people as their target audience. People who liked the LoTR movies and the Hobbit movies. That's who they want to attract to the new series.

    Most people discussing in this thread are not those people.
    That doesn't make your opinion any less valid! But it won't matter much to Amazon. They never expected your approval anyway.


    You are right they could have made a product that met your approval. It's not impossible. They just decided not to, because you're not the target audience.

    I think that's different than Wheel of Time, because for Wheel of Time the only existing audience were the book lovers. There weren't any lovers of previous movies because there were no previous movies. The only option there was to get approval from the book lovers or make an entirely new audience. From what I can tell they failed at both.
    Last edited by Murk; 2022-08-05 at 06:45 AM.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    Fail to respect the source material and the fandom will range and that range is very much capable of poisoning the well….
    Did you mean “rage,” or “range” in the Aragorn sense?

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    And, it's perfectly possible to make a show that is in tune with both the Peter Jackson films and Tolkien's creation.
    Yes. But it would take some care and finesse.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    What's worrisome is material swirling around this series that suggests the people behind it don't understand why Tolkien built his world the way he did and that they'll produce something that superficially looks like Middle-Earth but completely misses the point.
    And I’m definitely getting that sense.

    Originally Posted by Murk
    I think that's different than Wheel of Time, because for Wheel of Time the only existing audience were the book lovers. There weren't any lovers of previous movies because there were no previous movies. The only option there was to get approval from the book lovers or make an entirely new audience. From what I can tell they failed at both.
    These are good points here. And how they fared with Wheel of Time certainly raises concerns about this series.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Well, speaking only for myself, presumably it's about the Rings of Power, which seems like a pretty neat basis, since they were hyped up in the intro of the first movie and then sort of forgotten. And yes, I liked the other movies in the IP so I'm excited for this completely different cast and crew, because it's like 20 years later and I don't think Wierdly Aged Elven Agent Smith A Thousand Years in the Past would make terribly much sense, even if I have no idea if it technically would in the lore. That's kind of how movie universes work. People like Iron Man so they go to see Captain America, despite having a completely different cast. People liked Star Wars so they go to see Rogue One despite having a completely different crew.
    You didn't mention any of the marketing for Rings of Power itself in this. which is what I was referring to in 'doing a bad job of selling it.' Did any of that make an impression?

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Elves have a connection to nature, and snow is a natural substance, that would welcome the steps of an elf and help him. Swords, especially swords not created by elves, are artificial and would not have any opinions on elven weight.

    One has to remember that this is an animist universe in some regards.
    1) Elves in the Second Age are very likely using elven swords. Why wouldn't they?
    2) Are elf arms also artificial? Elves boosting/tossing each other around with ease doesn't seem farfetched. The (magic) sword could be completely incidental to this maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    And how they fared with Wheel of Time certainly raises concerns about this series.
    Yes, getting 3 seasons greenlit is definitely concerning.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The "basic physics" that allows them to run on top of waist-deep snow that non-elves have to wade through, right?
    Again, there's a reason why that would be how that works, which isn't applicable to the sword stunt. You're also not answering the question I posed: what in that stunt is "something that inherently doesn't follow" basic physics? Unless you mean to suggest that Elves themselves are never beholden to basic physics because they sometimes can do things that others can't due to natural magical effects, which I'd find an absurd argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So you'll retract everything if he turns out to be a prominent elf from the books?
    No - that point was about refuting your claim that we know there's something special about the individual being discussed here, which we don't. I would retract the claim that this doesn't make sense as shown if it turns out that they're deliberately portraying that Elf as incredibly strong. That wouldn't change that I feel this stunt was a bizarre way to show it, or that it feels out of place in a LotR story, or that the stunt doesn't even look good as shown in that clip ignoring everything else, but it would at least mean it's internally consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I meant "heroic" in the mythical "important person with maybe a connection to the divine who does important stuff" not as a synonym for bravery, sorry for being unclear.
    Ah, I see, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Beats me. But there's definitely an undercurrent of First-Age Elves being "more" (not "better", at least, not in the moral sense) than Men.
    True, no question about that.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Again, there's a reason why that would be how that works, which isn't applicable to the sword stunt.
    But there could be another explanation that IS applicable. You are choosing (points at sig) to go with the explanation that doesn't, when you don't have to, and I would say when there's nothing to gain by doing so. I'd certainly rather elves be shown doing inhumanly cool stunts as a way of signifying that, you know, they're not human.

    There are limits to that, which The Hobbit exceeded - for everyone, not just elves - but this doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    No - that point was about refuting your claim that we know there's something special about the individual being discussed here, which we don't. I would retract the claim that this doesn't make sense as shown if it turns out that they're deliberately portraying that Elf as incredibly strong. That wouldn't change that I feel this stunt was a bizarre way to show it, or that it feels out of place in a LotR story, or that the stunt doesn't even look good as shown in that clip ignoring everything else, but it would at least mean it's internally consistent.
    Good enough for me, bold is all I wanted.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But there could be another explanation that IS applicable. You are choosing (points at sig) to go with the explanation that doesn't, when you don't have to, and I would say when there's nothing to gain by doing so. I'd certainly rather elves be shown doing inhumanly cool stunts as a way of signifying that, you know, they're not human.

    There are limits to that, which The Hobbit exceeded - for everyone, not just elves - but this doesn't.
    I agree with the bolded sentiment, but where we disagree there is that this doesn't exceed the limits on that. Even if I were to assume that there were some magical explanation for this - and I see no reason to given how it's presented, and sincerely believe that won't be the case, it will just end up being a stunt that they did because they thought it would look cool - I would still consider it a poor choice that doesn't fit with the source material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Good enough for me, bold is all I wanted.
    Fair enough then.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    You didn't mention any of the marketing for Rings of Power itself in this. which is what I was referring to in 'doing a bad job of selling it.' Did any of that make an impression?
    Well, they marketed it with the title "The Rings of Power" which sold me on it right away. And nothing else I've seen has done anything to dissuade me from wanting to watch it.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yes, getting 3 seasons greenlit is definitely concerning.
    Twice renewing an extremely expensive show for a new season without letting either audiences or critics see any of actually is concerning, not artistically but in terms of business practices. It strongly suggests that Amazon doesn't actually care whether these shows recoup any money (considering how the only way they earn money is through prime subscriptions and no one buys Prime for the shows, it's hard to imagine how they even could) and is rather running its entire Amazon Studios enterprise in the hopes of burying competitors. Disney is presently doing the same thing, blasting a firehose worth of cash at various properties, especially Marvel and Star Wars, whether or not there's any interest or any real stories to tell.

    The result so far hasn't been shows that are bad, but rather shows that are stunningly meh. With enough money you get sufficient professional production values, enough takes from the actors, and sufficient editing in post to avoid outright disasters (certainly by the standards of fantasy and science fiction TV, which are quite low due to decades of stunted production budgets). I find this trend worrying. I want better for some of the best material written in the past century than to be used as content fodder in a spat resolved by which company can flood the market the most.

    Far too much of what we've seen from the Rings of Power series so far is an adaptation the studio made simply because it could, not because it had a story worth telling.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Actually, I'm on Prime for the shows. I don't think I ever bought anything on Amazon.
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    d6 Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    TV shows like this also take a long time to make, and the delay between finishing photography and actually finishing the effects work and having a completed show is pretty substantial; particularly for stuff with this level of VFX work going on. Adding yet more weeks of delay for promotion and people actually watching the show is gonna start to really eat into the time available for getting new episodes out the door in a timely fashion.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Twice renewing an extremely expensive show for a new season without letting either audiences or critics see any of actually is concerning, not artistically but in terms of business practices. It strongly suggests that Amazon doesn't actually care whether these shows recoup any money (considering how the only way they earn money is through prime subscriptions and no one buys Prime for the shows, it's hard to imagine how they even could) and is rather running its entire Amazon Studios enterprise in the hopes of burying competitors. Disney is presently doing the same thing, blasting a firehose worth of cash at various properties, especially Marvel and Star Wars, whether or not there's any interest or any real stories to tell.

    The result so far hasn't been shows that are bad, but rather shows that are stunningly meh. With enough money you get sufficient professional production values, enough takes from the actors, and sufficient editing in post to avoid outright disasters (certainly by the standards of fantasy and science fiction TV, which are quite low due to decades of stunted production budgets). I find this trend worrying. I want better for some of the best material written in the past century than to be used as content fodder in a spat resolved by which company can flood the market the most.
    Shows being renewed or greenlit based on internal showings is not some controversial paradigm shift and very much predates our current streaming model, even for story-focused fare. Breaking Bad got three seasons in one go, and then AMC picked it up for two more after FX dropped it. Sons of Anarchy was also renewed for multiple seasons at at time. Networks have been doing this kind of thing long before Amazon's shadowy cabal entered the game to warp your television; the sky is not falling.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Shows being renewed or greenlit based on internal showings is not some controversial paradigm shift and very much predates our current streaming model, even for story-focused fare. Breaking Bad got three seasons in one go, and then AMC picked it up for two more after FX dropped it. Sons of Anarchy was also renewed for multiple seasons at at time. Networks have been doing this kind of thing long before Amazon's shadowy cabal entered the game to warp your television; the sky is not falling.
    Fun fact, Breaking Bad cost ~3 million per episode. The show ran for 62 episodes, or ~186 million in total. Adjusting for inflation a little, let's round up to $200 million for the whole 5 season show in today's money.

    Rings of Power reported costs a truly jaw-dropping 58 million per episode, and around $465 million for just the first season. That's more than double the cost of Breaking Bad in its entirety. It's also significantly more money than it cost to make the LotR trilogy of films (~280 million, though probably more like ~300 in today's money). At that stupefying price point if this show is anything other than great I can't countenance calling it worth it. You could take that 465 million and make 100 episodes of still pretty expensive TV for that (4.5 million an episode is well above the industry average) and almost certainly have way better value added.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Actually, I'm on Prime for the shows. I don't think I ever bought anything on Amazon.
    Same, but I think it's different in Europe. From what I can tell, Prime is much more expensive in the US and offers a lot more delivery bonuses. I think I pay about 2.5 USD a month and get just the shows (which honestly is a good trade for access to my brothers' Netflix and Disney+ accounts).

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    From what I can tell, Prime is up to $140 here in the US.

    My household had it some years ago, before streaming took off, but when they raised the price to $120 we dropped it. At the time it didn't seem worth it, and I'm not sure if it would now.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2022-08-05 at 08:01 PM.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Fun fact, Breaking Bad cost ~3 million per episode. The show ran for 62 episodes, or ~186 million in total. Adjusting for inflation a little, let's round up to $200 million for the whole 5 season show in today's money.

    Rings of Power reported costs a truly jaw-dropping 58 million per episode, and around $465 million for just the first season. That's more than double the cost of Breaking Bad in its entirety. It's also significantly more money than it cost to make the LotR trilogy of films (~280 million, though probably more like ~300 in today's money). At that stupefying price point if this show is anything other than great I can't countenance calling it worth it. You could take that 465 million and make 100 episodes of still pretty expensive TV for that (4.5 million an episode is well above the industry average) and almost certainly have way better value added.
    If it flops, I shall weep for Bezos' lost money.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If it flops, I shall weep for Bezos' lost money.
    Meanwhile my thought is "holy crap Bezos, stop touching stuff! Youre getting it all dirty!"
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Meanwhile my thought is "holy crap Bezos, stop touching stuff! Youre getting it all dirty!"
    Is real-life Lex Luthor even involved with this project? Beyond his company bankrolling it, I mean.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    From what I can tell, Prime is up to $140 here in the US.

    My household had it some years ago, before streaming took off, but when they raised the price to $120 we dropped it. At the time it didn't seem worth it, and I'm not sure if it would now.

    .
    Ooof, yeah. It's definitely under 10 euroes a month here, or I wouldn't have got it. But I'm pretty sure I haven't ever seen any effect from it except slightly faster delivery sometimes?
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Originally Posted by Eldan
    But I'm pretty sure I haven't ever seen any effect from it except slightly faster delivery sometimes?
    When we had it, the benefit was free two-day shipping, or something like that. But we just didn’t buy enough and didn’t need anything that quickly.

    But the dynamic has apparently changed, because now I see the Prime delivery vans in my neighborhood once or twice a day. I always wonder at who’s buying so much stuff.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    We signed up for Prime when we moved to a rural area. When Wal-Mart is 35 minutes away and it's 2 hours to the nearest major metro area, the ability to order stuff with free shipping is pretty handy, even if it takes 2-4 days to arrive. I don't care for Amazon as a company, but they provide a lot of utility.

    On topic, I don't like the direction this show has taken and won't be watching it. One thing I'm surprised I haven't seen discussed in this thread is some chucklehead show-runner saying something about them wanting to make Isildur's story more of a tragedy... when he already has one of the more tragic stories about being a great guy who risks his life doing a bunch of good stuff while defying his king, playing Ninja Fruit Stealer at one point, loses his father and brothers in a long war, and then chokes at the very last minute, singlehandedly setting in motion the entire events of the LOTR books due to the great failure that everyone remembers him most for.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    On topic, I don't like the direction this show has taken and won't be watching it. One thing I'm surprised I haven't seen discussed in this thread is some chucklehead show-runner saying something about them wanting to make Isildur's story more of a tragedy... when he already has one of the more tragic stories
    No, you're again looking at this from the perspective of the books.

    Isildur does not have a tragic story in the Peter Jackson films. He's just a dude who's on screen for twenty seconds and makes a stupid decision. That's not tragic.

    When a show-runner says "We're going to make Isildur's story more of a tragedy" they do not mean "We're going to make Isildur from the books more tragic", they mean "We're going to make Isildur from the movies more tragic".

    Because the show relates to the movies, not the books.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    No, you're again looking at this from the perspective of the books.

    Isildur does not have a tragic story in the Peter Jackson films. He's just a dude who's on screen for twenty seconds and makes a stupid decision. That's not tragic.

    When a show-runner says "We're going to make Isildur's story more of a tragedy" they do not mean "We're going to make Isildur from the books more tragic", they mean "We're going to make Isildur from the movies more tragic".

    Because the show relates to the movies, not the books.
    Isildur from the movies is a very tragic figure, though. As you said, he makes a stupid decision, and then he dies because of it. How could you be more tragic than that?
    I'm making a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Isildur from the movies is a very tragic figure, though. As you said, he makes a stupid decision, and then he dies because of it. How could you be more tragic than that?
    He would have died regardless, though.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He would have died regardless, though.
    Sure, a hundred years later of wildly different causes.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    The movies aren't interested enough in Isildur himself for him to be much of a tragic figure. He's there, insofar as they devote any time to him at all, as foil and contrast for Aragorn. Narratively, Isildur's utility is completely expended when Aragorn lets Frodo go, which is why he's never mentioned again in the movies.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Which one is Isildur again?
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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