LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Keltest]

Which one is Isildur again?

He's the one that isnt Elendil.

[Thrudd]

The text of Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power, and the appendices of LotR don't give a whole lot of personal detail for Isildur or anyone, they are an accounting of events on a historical scale. So any delving into the personal details of these characters' lives and their relationships will give more emotional weight to the tragedy of it all. Maybe the show runners were talking about it being "more tragic" than the portrayal in the films, in which Isildur can easily be seen as a corrupted asshat who refused to destroy the ring when it would have been very easy to do so (physically, at least). Even though we are told by the film how powerfully the ring affects men's minds, he still looks really bad when he turns to Elrond and says "no". So maybe they mean that the show will make him more sympathetic and we'll see how good he was before the ring's power corrupted him at that crucial moment, therefore that moment will seem all the more tragic.

[Peelee]

He's the one that isnt Elendil.

I legit do not know if this is a joke or not.

[Vinyadan]

IIRC, the movie doesn't name Elendil. "It was in this moment, when all hope had faded, that Isildur, son of the king, took up his father's sword."

[Fyraltari]

Sure, a hundred years later of wildly different causes.

Destroyed Ring or not, he'd still go back to Arnor following the same road, be ambushed by Orcs and killed to death. The only difference is that without the Ring he wouldn't have been able to go invisible for three minutes.

Which one is Isildur again?

He's the ancestor of Aragorn who slayed Sauron and looted the Ring. Elrond took him to the cracks of Doom to destroy the damned thing but he refused (to his defense no one bar none could have done it). Aragorn is his descendant and heir and, in the movies, struggles a lot with the notion of claiminh that inheritance because he's afraid of also having inherited his failings.

In the books it's made more clear that Isildur did a lot of good and impressive things in his life (which I expect will feature heavily in this show, else what are they doing?) but will mostly be remembered for that one moment of weakness. Much like Boromir.

[Psyren]

Forget Elendil, isn't Ar-Pharazon going to be in it?

At that stupefying price point if this show is anything other than great I can't countenance calling it worth it.

I'm sure your "countenance" matters a great deal to them

From what I can tell, Prime is up to $140 here in the US.

My household had it some years ago, before streaming took off, but when they raised the price to $120 we dropped it. At the time it didn't seem worth it, and I'm not sure if it would now.

It definitely pays for itself for me. I got some great deals on Prime Day this year too. Updated Echo devices, LED backlight for my new TV, peripherals, smart bulbs etc.

[Keltest]

Destroyed Ring or not, he'd still go back to Arnor following the same road, be ambushed by Orcs and killed to death. The only difference is that without the Ring he wouldn't have been able to go invisible for three minutes.

Its heavily implied that the Ring drew the orcs to him in the first place.

[Divayth Fyr]

Destroyed Ring or not, he'd still go ack to Arnor following the same road, be ambushed by Orcs and killed to death. The only difference is that without the Ring he wouldn't have been able to go invisible for three minutes.

Maybe or maybe not. in the Unfinished Tales it is specifically mentioned that

and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.

so there is a possiblity - even if slim - that he wouldn't have to deal with the Orcs if the Ring was not there. And why the Ring called for aid you may ask?

When he at last felt free to return to his own realm he was in haste, and he wished to go first to Imladris; for he had left his wife and youngest son there, and he had moreover an urgent need for the counsel of Elrond.
[...]
Elendur went to his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. 'Atarinyal he said, 'what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?'
'Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.'

Almost makes it seem Isildur was aiming for what Bilbo did (with some help from Gandalf) and pass the Ring on to another (presumably Elrond in this case). Could he actually do it? We'll never know... But the Ring probably didn't want to risk it.

He's the ancestor of Aragorn who slayed Sauron and looted the Ring. Elrond took him to the cracks of Doom to destroy the damned thing but he refused (to his defense no one bar none could have done it). Aragorn is his descendant and heir and, in the movies, struggles a lot with the notion of claiminh that inheritance because he's afraid of also having inherited his failings.

Weren't their visit to the cracks a movie addition? Anyway, Isildur's portrayal in the movies kinda meshes with what almost seems to be a theme, making men seem... lesser that they were in the books. Aragorn struggles with his inheritance to the point of only getting Anduril after Elrond had delivered the reforged blade to him (and mention Arwen's state), whereas in the books he did a lot of work in the lands of Gondor and Rohan to help them stand strong (well, as strong as possible), carries the shards of Narsil with him and generally seems like the question isn't "if" but "when". Similiarly Faramir and Denethor stray from the original, the latter almost a caricature...

Incidentally, this ties into one of the things I'll probably never forgive Jackson (the other being Gimli...) - we were robbed from having the scene of Eomer falling to despair only to rejoice upon seeing the royal flag of Gondor fly on the corsair ships joining the battle. It wouldn't even take that much extra screen time to add it in... Instead, the ships dock and the whole battlefield gets covered in Domestos...

Forget Elendil, isn't Ar-Pharazon going to be in it?

He was already shown to be in (as an advisor to the Queen Regent). Also has a son now.

The one who isn't in - so far - is Anarion. Isildur got a brand new sister instead ;P

In case someone missed the main Numenor players

Spoiler

Show

[Mechalich]

Destroyed Ring or not, he'd still go back to Arnor following the same road, be ambushed by Orcs and killed to death. The only difference is that without the Ring he wouldn't have been able to go invisible for three minutes.

Maybe? Arguably he was specifically targeted because he had the Ring with him, and Sauron and/or the Nazgul directed such minions as remained specifically to track down the Ring in the hope of recovering it. Now this was actually probably the best outcome anyway, since had Isildur actually made it back to Arnor - ex. if he took ship instead - the ring would have gradually corrupted him and he would have probably turned the realms of the west against each other.

He's the ancestor of Aragorn who slayed Sauron and looted the Ring. Elrond took him to the cracks of Doom to destroy the damned thing but he refused (to his defense no one bar none could have done it).

Right. Significantly, Elrond could have conceivably overpowered Isildur and taken the Ring - they were both really talented warriors, but Elrond's got a couple millennia of additional experience - but he would have been no more able to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom either. In the end, after all, no one manages to throw the Ring into the volcano deliberately and it is extremely strongly implied that no one could have. Only the sort of glorious accident that actually occurs would have allowed for the Ring's destruction. In fact, it's rather impressive of both Elrond and Isildur that they managed to walk out of the Cracks of Doom without trying to kill each other.

The Ring is an exquisitely engineered trap, the ultimate product of Sauron's diabolical cunning, a trait in which he may have exceeded Morgoth, and it was only when it thoroughly ensnared multiple people too weak to actually make full use of it that it was overcome.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe or maybe not. in the Unfinished Tales it is specifically mentioned that

Yeah, that bit has a rather long footnote attached to it that goes into details about whay the Orcs atracked:

No doubt that Sauron, well-informed of the movements of the Alliance, had sent in the country all the batallions of Orcs - the Orcs of the Red-Eye - he could spare, with orders to harass every force that would try to go the short way, through the Passes. Indeed, mosy of Gil-Galad's forces, with Isildur's and part of the Men of Arnor, had crossed the Passes of Imladris and Caradhras, and the Orcs, all confused, stayed hidden. But watchful still, and resolved to rush any company of Men or Elves they would outnumber. They let Thranduil come and go, for his army, even harshly tried, was too strong for them. But they were bidding their time, ambushed in the Forests while others lurked along the shores of the river. It is unlikely that they had heard of Sauron's fall, for he had endured a bitter siege in Mordor and all his forces had been undone. If some had escaped, they had run far away, to the East, with the Ringwraiths. Therefore, this little detachment of Orcs posted in the North and without great consequences, had been forgotten. No doubt they believed Sauron had won and that the remains of Thranduil's army were fleeing to their woodland homes. And so were they emboldened, desiring to earn their Master's praises, even though they had no part in any of the main battles. Besides, it isn't praise that would have received those of thel who would have survived to see the rebirth of Sauron. For there would not habe been tortures foul enough to calm his wrath against imbeciles who would let slip the most precious thing in all Middle-Earth: the Master-Ring ; and that even though they were not meant to know anything about the Master-Rin, whose existence was known by none bar Sauron himself and the Nine Wraiths, his slaves. Yet there were many who thought that if the Orcs had atatcked Isildur with such unrelenting fury, the Ring had a part in it. It was barely two years since it had left Sauron's hand, and surely it was rapidly cooling, but it was still imbued of his evil power and tried by any means to get back to its Lord's hand (as it happened when Sauron rose again and was re-established in his powers). And it was concluded, without really knowing why, that the orc-chiefs were driven by a ferocious desire to destroy the Dúnedains and to take their leader prisoner. Later it would be seen that the War of the Ring was lost during the Disaster of the Gladden Fields.

So it seems that without the Ring, the Orcs would have still ambushed him. Maybe they wouldn't have pressed the assault to the point of killing him, but I think they would have, to gain their Master's praises.

Almost makes it seem Isildur was aiming for what Bilbo did (with some help from Gandalf) and pass the Ring on to another (presumably Elrond in this case). Could he actually do it? We'll never know... But the Ring probably didn't want to risk it.

I think Isidur's realization that he shouldn't have kept the Ring is only coming to him in this moment as he understands that his sons and himself are unlikely to survive the night. The text still described him as full of pride in the beginning.

Weren't their visit to the cracks a movie addition?

Sort of. Elrond doesn't precise where the conversation happened, but Sauron died on the slopes of Mount Doom, so it makes little difference.

Anyway, Isildur's portrayal in the movies kinda meshes with what almost seems to be a theme, making men seem... lesser that they were in the books. Aragorn struggles with his inheritance to the point of only getting Anduril after Elrond had delivered the reforged blade to him (and mention Arwen's state), whereas in the books he did a lot of work in the lands of Gondor and Rohan to help them stand strong (well, as strong as possible), carries the shards of Narsil with him and generally seems like the question isn't "if" but "when". Similiarly Faramir and Denethor stray from the original, the latter almost a caricature...

There was no space to flesh-out Isildur in movies that were already tightly packed. Aragorn and Faramir's changes in characterization were to make them more dynamic (Aragorn's character development having already happened by the time of the novel) and to re-affirm the corruptive power of the Ring. Denethor was done dirty.

He was already shown to be in (as an advisor to the Queen Regent). Also has a son now.

I wasn't really hoping for them to portray him as gay for Sauron, but I'm a tad disappointed.

[Sapphire Guard]

Most likely what we're going to get is a generic fantasy show loosely based on the setting, there's too much money in this for big risks. There's not that much by way of overt bad news, but not much by way of good news either.

How would we know if it flops or not? Amazon isn't likely to release info on viewing figures unless it wants to.

The quote that I'm interested in is 'every good quest needs a fellowship'. I don't like to lean too hard on marketing interviews, they have to do hundreds of them and have to fill the time somehow, so weird quotes are to be expected. But does this mean that she forms some kind of adventuring party? Huh.

I don't think we can determine whether Isildur would have been ambushed without the ring or not. Maybe, maybe not.

[Zevox]

The quote that I'm interested in is 'every good quest needs a fellowship'. I don't like to lean too hard on marketing interviews, they have to do hundreds of them and have to fill the time somehow, so weird quotes are to be expected. But does this mean that she forms some kind of adventuring party? Huh.

The stranger part of that to me is the notion that the characters in this show will be on a quest. That's not really a word I'd use to describe any of the events of the Second Age.

[Divayth Fyr]

The stranger part of that to me is the notion that the characters in this show will be on a quest. That's not really a word I'd use to describe any of the events of the Second Age.

Almost looks like the quest is Galadriel's search for Sauron. At least with the limited information we have, nothing else really comes to mind.

So it seems that without the Ring, the Orcs would have still ambushed him. Maybe they wouldn't have pressed the assault to the point of killing him, but I think they would have, to gain their Master's praises.

Or maybe they would - as the text notes orcs do - stop their assault, sending some scouts to keep an eye on him. One more thing we'll never know, but can't completely rule out.

I think Isidur's realization that he shouldn't have kept the Ring is only coming to him in this moment as he understands that his sons and himself are unlikely to survive the night. The text still described him as full of pride in the beginning.

Yes, the text describes him as full of pride - but that was literally just after the victory over Sauron and returning to Gondor. But there is a year-long gap between that and that fateful journey, plenty of time for him to change. Which seems likely due to the bit where he specifically has a matter to discuss with Elrond, which would mesh with his later remark about how it should go to others.

Sort of. Elrond doesn't precise where the conversation happened, but Sauron died on the slopes of Mount Doom, so it makes little difference.

Eh, on one hand, true. On the other, making it look like Isildur was just a hand movement away from destroying the Ring but didn't makes him look worse (in the eyes of people unaware that nobody in Middle-Earth could do such a thing).

There was no space to flesh-out Isildur in movies that were already tightly packed.

In all honesty just not giving him that expression the moment he refuses to destroy the Ring (and maybe skipping Elrond's line about the failure of men) would do a lot to change how he is viewed.



And returning a bit to the discussion about the show being tailored for the movie audience, mentions of Jackson being approached to direct the series (re)surfaced recently, and part of Amazon's statement was this

In pursuing the rights for our show, we were obligated to keep the series distinct and separate from the films.

Seems they're not doing a good job of it ;)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by J-H
We signed up for Prime when we moved to a rural area. When Wal-Mart is 35 minutes away and it's 2 hours to the nearest major metro area, the ability to order stuff with free shipping is pretty handy, even if it takes 2-4 days to arrive. I don't care for Amazon as a company, but they provide a lot of utility.

I hear you on this, and I can see how it could work in those circumstances. Where I live is unfortunately highly populated with big-box stores, so less of a benefit for me.

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
….but will mostly be remembered for that one moment of weakness. Much like Boromir.

Can’t speak for others, but when I think of Boromir I think of him dying to protect Merry and Pippin, and of course his boat surviving the Rauros and gliding out to sea.

Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
Incidentally, this ties into one of the things I'll probably never forgive Jackson (the other being Gimli...)

So much this.

Originally Posted by Zevox
The stranger part of that to me is the notion that the characters in this show will be on a quest.

Sounds like generic fantasy marketing to me. Rather than trying to present all the relevant themes in a soundbite, they say “quest” so we can be sure it’s really fantasy.

And, of course, using “fellowship” gets us the nostalgia tie-in.

[Fyraltari]

Almost looks like the quest is Galadriel's search for Sauron. At least with the limited information we have, nothing else really comes to mind.

Galadriel: Excuse me, I am looking for someone called Sauron Gorthaur. Big chap, about this high, likes dogs and wearing black. Sometimes turns into animals.
Annatar: ... I'll let you know if I see him.

Or maybe they would - as the text notes orcs do - stop their assault, sending some scouts to keep an eye on him. One more thing we'll never know, but can't completely rule out.

Sure, so we can't say that the Ring was definitely responsible for his death, either.

Yes, the text describes him as full of pride - but that was literally just after the victory over Sauron and returning to Gondor. But there is a year-long gap between that and that fateful journey, plenty of time for him to change. Which seems likely due to the bit where he specifically has a matter to discuss with Elrond, which would mesh with his later remark about how it should go to others.

I mean, he did entrust his youngest son to Elrond too.

Eh, on one hand, true. On the other, making it look like Isildur was just a hand movement away from destroying the Ring but didn't makes him look worse (in the eyes of people unaware that nobody in Middle-Earth could do such a thing).


In all honesty just not giving him that expression the moment he refuses to destroy the Ring (and maybe skipping Elrond's line about the failure of men) would do a lot to change how he is viewed.

Okay, but you'd lose the parallel with Frodo.

[Zevox]

Almost looks like the quest is Galadriel's search for Sauron. At least with the limited information we have, nothing else really comes to mind.

Yeah, and that in and of itself is kind of weird, since Sauron only hid for a few centuries after the War of Wrath. By the time anything this series wants to cover would be happening, his return would be well-known. Kind of feels like they just want to copy the feel of The Fellowship of the Ring, where Sauron's return is this looming menace that they're only just becoming aware of, regardless of whether that makes sense. Makes me fear they'll pull a Force Awakens and retread story beats from the three films because it's perceived as "safe," even though this story should be completely different from that.

[Peelee]

Yeah, and that in and of itself is kind of weird, since Sauron only hid for a few centuries after the War of Wrath. By the time anything this series wants to cover would be happening, his return would be well-known. Kind of feels like they just want to copy the feel of The Fellowship of the Ring, where Sauron's return is this looming menace that they're only just becoming aware of

The third sentence seems significantly at odds with the first two.

[Zevox]

The third sentence seems significantly at odds with the first two.

I truly don't understand what could possibly lead you to say that?

[Vinyadan]

The quote that I'm interested in is 'every good quest needs a fellowship'.

Good thing the new Fellowship album just came out, then

[Fyraltari]

I truly don't understand what could possibly lead you to say that?

In Fellowship, the return of Sauron isn't a looming threat they've just recently become aware of. Everyone but the Hobbits already knows by the beginning of the story.

[Peelee]

I truly don't understand what could possibly lead you to say that?

You're saying that Sauron only hid for a few hundred years. The intro to LotR says the war against Sauron (I assume it's the war you're talking about) wasjke 3,000 years ago. So, according to you, as of 2,700 years ago (hell, let's give some leeway and say 2,500 years ago), Sauron's return was "well-known" (your words).

And somehow in the Fellowship of the Ring, two and a half millennia later, they're just becoming aware of it?

You don't see how this is at odds with itself?

[Fyraltari]

You're saying that Sauron only hid for a few hundred years. The intro to LotR says the war against Sauron (I assume it's the war you're talking about) wasjke 3,000 years ago. So, according to you, as of 2,700 years ago (hell, let's give some leeway and say 2,500 years ago), Sauron's return was "well-known" (your words).

And somehow in the Fellowship of the Ring, two and a half millennia later, they're just becoming aware of it?

You don't see how this is at odds with itself?

You're confusing the War of Wrath (where Sauron's boss, Morgoth, was defeated) at the end of the First age and the war of the Last Alliance (where Sauron, now his own boss, was defeated) at the end of the Second Age. Being a coward at heart, Sauron does a lot of hiding.

This show is set in the Second Age, before the War of the Last Alliance.

[Peelee]

You're confusing the War of Wrath (where Sauron's boss, Morgoth, was defeated) at the end of the First age and the war of the Last Alliance (where Sauron, now his own boss, was defeated) at the end of the Second Age. Being a coward at heart, Sauron does a lot of hiding.

This show is set in the Second Age, before the War of the Last Alliance.

I was assuming, actually, not confusing. To my recollection the only war covered in the movies was the war of the Last Alliance, which I assumed was called the War of Wrath since they're not named in the movies and I was trying to work off context in the post.

How long are ages?

[Keltest]

I was assuming, actually, not confusing. To my recollection the only war covered in the movies was the war of the Last Alliance, which I assumed was called the War of Wrath since they're not named in the movies and I was trying to work off context in the post.

How long are ages?

The movies start with the defeat of Sauron in Last Alliance, where Sauron was weakened dramatically and went into hiding for the last time before his final defeat. Prior to that, Sauron went into hiding and re-emerged several times, because he's not the kind of villain to just retire quietly with only a third of the world in thrall.

[Vinyadan]

You're saying that Sauron only hid for a few hundred years. The intro to LotR says the war against Sauron (I assume it's the war you're talking about) wasjke 3,000 years ago. So, according to you, as of 2,700 years ago (hell, let's give some leeway and say 2,500 years ago), Sauron's return was "well-known" (your words).

And somehow in the Fellowship of the Ring, two and a half millennia later, they're just becoming aware of it?

You don't see how this is at odds with itself?

Strictly speaking, Sauron's return became common knowledge during the Third Age after the events of the Hobbit.
He had been a problem incognito since 1100 as the Necromancer, however, and his servants and proxies (especially the Nazgul) had also been at work, starting with Angmar being founded around 1300 (which led to the destruction of the kingdom of Aragorn's ancestors) and Minas Ithil being conquered in 2002.
2850-51: Gandalf discovers that Sauron is the Necromander and reports on his identity to the White Council.
2941: The Hobbit. The White Council attacks Sauron in Dol Guldur.
2951: Sauron openly declares himself and starts building back Barad Dur. The Nazgul reccupy Dol Guldur. In 2954, the Orodruin starts flaming again.
3008: Gandalf informs Frodo about Sauron, about whom he has already heard something. "‘But last night I told you of Sauron the Great, the Dark Lord. The rumours that you have heard are true: he has indeed arisen again and left his hold in Mirkwood and returned to his ancient fastness in the Dark Tower of Mordor. That name even you hobbits have heard of, like a shadow on the borders of old stories. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.’"
3018: Frodo's journey begins.

[Fyraltari]

I was assuming, actually, not confusing. To my recollection the only war covered in the movies was the war of the Last Alliance, which I assumed was called the War of Wrath since they're not named in the movies and I was trying to work off context in the post.

The War of Wrath isn't really relevant to The Lord of the Rings anyway, beyond creating a sense of history to the setting. It's already a small wonder that the movies precise "A Balrog of Morgoth".

How long are ages?

They don't have a fixed length, it's more infocating of a significant paradigm shift.

The First Age (First Age of the Sun, if you want to be precise about it, it wasn't the beginning of time) lasted roughly 500 years and was caracterized by the "Long War" between Morgoth and the Elves, ending with the War of Wrath and the fall of Morgoth.

The Second Age lasted about 3, 500 years and was mostly a time of prosperity, if significantly worse by the end. It was caracterized by the domination of the Numenorean civilization and ends with the Fall of Númenor and the War of Last Alliance against Sauron.

The Third Age lasted 3,019 years (lotr is explictly set in T.A. 3019) and is a time of kingdoms fighting one another (in parts, but not only because of Sauron's machinations) and of the weakening of everything magical, ending with the War of the Ring, the final defeat of Sauron and the departure of the Elves.

The Fourth Age presumably ends with the dissolution of the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor and is the time where all traces of magic vanish from Middle-Earth, leading into real-world history, hower long that took.

[Peelee]

The movies start with the defeat of Sauron in Last Alliance, where Sauron was weakened dramatically and went into hiding for the last time before his final defeat. Prior to that, Sauron went into hiding and re-emerged several times, because he's not the kind of villain to just retire quietly with only a third of the world in thrall.

Huh. My impression from the movie was that that was during the height of Sauron's power.


Also, silly English. Stuff like "was that that was" must be infuriating for ESL folks.

[Thrudd]

You're confusing the War of Wrath (where Sauron's boss, Morgoth, was defeated) at the end of the First age and the war of the Last Alliance (where Sauron, now his own boss, was defeated) at the end of the Second Age. Being a coward at heart, Sauron does a lot of hiding.

This show is set in the Second Age, before the War of the Last Alliance.

Spoiler: Sauron is actually pretty openly evil and powerful for a lot of the second age

Show

After he makes the One Ring, he attacks the Elves the first time, and almost succeeds at wiping them out at Lindon before the Numenoreans show up to save the day from the sea. He retreats to Mordor, but still has the One Ring and the nine and the seven (or six), which he gives out at that time. He spends a lot of the second age openly ruling in Mordor and influencing the men of the south and east to his service. The Eregion elves had to retreat into Lindon, Rivendell and Lorien, and the Dwarves closed themselves up in Moria, for a long time. There's a big "dark age" period, where Sauron is actually pretty much terrorizing most of western Middle Earth except for the free strongholds of the Elves and Numenor. When he starts going against Numenorean cities in the south, that's when Pharazon sends an armada and captures him, and then comes the Sundering. He's only hidden for a little while after he loses his body, before he reforms physically and starts the War of the Final Alliance. Everyone knows he's in Mordor with armies of Orcs and human servants for most of that time, scheming and planning, they just aren't strong enough to do anything about it.

The show might be compressing events and combining characters into one series that in the annals take place over 1700 years or so - that's how much time passes between the time Sauron first makes the One Ring and the time of the Last Alliance.

[Keltest]

Huh. My impression from the movie was that that was during the height of Sauron's power.


Also, silly English. Stuff like "was that that was" must be infuriating for ESL folks.

It really depends on how you define power. Arguably, his most powerful was when he had Numenor wrapped around his metaphorical finger. His most straightforwardly destructive was the war of the Last Alliance probably. It's a recurring theme in Tolkien's works that evil can never truly create or grow, only change, twist and diminish. Every time he was defeated, Sauron lost a little bit of himself and his power that he could never recover. The Ring is the most obvious occurance of this, but it happened every time Sauron suffered a persona defeat. Saruman sees it too, though less overtly. He goes from Gandalf's superior/equal to a cruel bully who cant even really manage to suppress some hobbits correctly.

[Fyraltari]

Huh. My impression from the movie was that that was during the height of Sauron's power.

The movies imply as much for the sake of simplicity. It's probably truer to say this was the height of his power relative to the strength of his opposition.

Also, silly English. Stuff like "was that that was" must be infuriating for ESL folks.

The line break betwenn the two "that" helped, but it's not that confusing.

Spoiler: Sauron is actually pretty openly evil and powerful for a lot of the second age

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After he makes the One Ring, he attacks the Elves the first time, and almost succeeds at wiping them out at Lindon before the Numenoreans show up to save the day from the sea. He retreats to Mordor, but still has the One Ring and the nine and the seven (or six), which he gives out at that time. He spends a lot of the second age openly ruling in Mordor and influencing the men of the south and east to his service. The Eregion elves had to retreat into Lindon, Rivendell and Lorien, and the Dwarves closed themselves up in Moria, for a long time. There's a big "dark age" period, where Sauron is actually pretty much terrorizing most of western Middle Earth except for the free strongholds of the Elves and Numenor. When he starts going against Numenorean cities in the south, that's when Pharazon sends an armada and captures him, and then comes the Sundering. He's only hidden for a little while after he loses his body, before he reforms physically and starts the War of the Final Alliance. Everyone knows he's in Mordor with armies of Orcs and human servants for most of that time, scheming and planning, they just aren't strong enough to do anything about it.

The show might be compressing events and combining characters into one series that in the annals take place over 1700 years or so - that's how much time passes between the time Sauron first makes the One Ring and the time of the Last Alliance.

And frankly the Annals are kind of filled by long stretches of nothing. Like, the Elves discover what Sauron is up to with the Rings and it takes them a full century to go to war over it. What took them so long!?