LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Thrudd]

The movies imply as much for the sake of simplicity. It's probably truer to say this was the height of his power relative to the strength of his opposition.



The line break betwenn the two "that" helped, but it's not that confusing.

And frankly the Annals are kind of filled by long stretches of nothing. Like, the Elves discover what Sauron is up to with the Rings and it takes them a full century to go to war over it. What took them so long!?

Maybe they lacked the power- they knew he now had a powerful artifact and armies in Mordor, and they just weren't strong enough to do anything about it. Also, elves have incredible patience, being immortal and all. maybe they just lose track of time. lol

Spoiler: speculation

Show

Maybe the show will be about what they were doing to try to stop him before he sallied forth to destroy them with his armies and collect the rings. And then they'll combine the last battle of the first war at Lindon and the invasion of Numenoreans under Pharazon that captures Sauron. Of course, somewhere in that time he'll need to distribute those rings to everyone - though maybe they'll have him do that while he's Annatar instead of seizing them by force. And Pharazon will get one of the rings, and will be how he gets corrupted- he's the Witch King! (probably not)

[Mechalich]

And frankly the Annals are kind of filled by long stretches of nothing. Like, the Elves discover what Sauron is up to with the Rings and it takes them a full century to go to war over it. What took them so long!?

It was actually Sauron who attacked the Elves. As to why it took Sauron almost a century to put together his attack, it's a combination of politics and geography.

By the middle portion of the Second Age - which will presumably be the state of affairs during the Amazon show - Middle-Earth was divided between three major powers. The Elves in the north-west, Sauron in the south and east, and the Numenoreans and the 'Men of Good Will' along the coast and in the central region between the Misty Mountains and Greenwood (Mirkwood), including the lands that later became Rohan and much of the watershed of the Anduin River. Of these groups the power rankings were: 1. Numenoreans and their allies, 2. Sauron's orcs and subordinate humans, 3. Elves and dwarves.

Sauron was well aware of this and wanted to avoid fighting the Numenoreans and their allies. This meant that he had to first marshal a force capable of taking on the elves - which took a long time especially as he was opposed in this effort by the Blue Wizards (one of Tolkien's most important and most underdeveloped later stage concepts) contesting his control in the East - and then he had to manage the logistics of marching that force hundreds of kilometers north from the Black Gate to the southern edge of the Greenwood, hundreds of kilometers west along the northern edge of Calenardhon (Rohan), over the mountains into Eriador, presumably through the Gap of Rohan, and then north again to attack Eregion. The logistics of such an assault, with a need to be careful foraging locally so as not to anger the Numenoreans, would have been unbelievably complex. Sauron might well have been caching huge quantities of stores along the route for decades just to get his troops into Eriador.

I imagine that the Elves spent this period both strengthening their defenses and passionately lobbying Numenor to intervene and attack Mordor, the latter to no avail. The key aspect of the Second Age is that the balance of power lies with the Numenoreans from start to finish. Not the Elves, not Sauron, not anyone but this specially enhanced group of humans. And the overall thrust of the age is how things grow progressively worse as the leading influence among the Numenoreans shifts from the Elves - who try to get them to follow the Valar - to Sauron - who tries to get them to follow Morgoth.

[Psyren]

...I had never heard of "blue wizards" until now, thanks for the lesson!

[hamishspence]

...I had never heard of "blue wizards" until now, thanks for the lesson!

I don't recall anything saying the Blue Wizards were active in the Second Age. Unfinished Tales paints them as very much a Third Age thing.

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.


...


Now the White Messenger in later days became known among Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongues of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode. Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.

[Divayth Fyr]

I don't recall anything saying the Blue Wizards were active in the Second Age. Unfinished Tales paints them as very much a Third Age thing.

In a move that surprises nobody, Tolkien actually drafted different versions of their story (well, the barest of bones of one, but still). History of Middle-Earth cites a (rough) note

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ...
and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

[Sapphire Guard]

Looks like they're drawing on the 'watchful peace' of the third age as influence. Such are the joys of time compression.

[Peelee]

...I had never heard of "blue wizards" until now, thanks for the lesson!

They were mentioned by Gandalf in thy first Hobbit movie, shortly after Bilbo joins the party and ask how many wizards are in thy world (five).

[Fyraltari]

They were mentioned by Gandalf in thy first Hobbit movie, shortly after Bilbo joins the party and ask how many wizards are in thy world (five).

And he's forgotten their names because of Intellectual Property Laws.

[Keltest]

And he's forgotten their names because of Intellectual Property Laws.

I figured it was a joke on how unimportant they are to anything published that nobody in the real world can remember their names either.

[Palanan]

Maybe, but most people probably took it as a joke about the Blues Brothers.

[Fyraltari]

I figured it was a joke on how unimportant they are to anything published that nobody in the real world can remember their names either.

No, it's because New Line Cinema has the rights to adapt The Lord of the Rings (appendices included) and The Hobbit and nothing else. Lotr does mention the existence of Blue wizards but names are only given in Unfinished Tales and History of Middle-Earth, so NLC wasn't allowed to name them.

[Peelee]

Maybe, but most people probably took it as a joke about the Blues Brothers.

I seriously doubt this.

[Fyraltari]

It was actually Sauron who attacked the Elves. As to why it took Sauron almost a century to put together his attack, it's a combination of politics and geography.

By "them", I meant sauron and the Elves both.
I don't really buy the reasons you've given, whatever problems you're facing, it doesn't take 100 years to raise an army. (Also the Numenoreans weren't interventionists before that war so Sauron wouldn't have feared angering them by attacking the Elves).

Besides, whatever the reasons, the point remains that things move slowly in the Second and Third age. I have many criticisms of the PJ movies, but skipping the 19 years between Frodo receiving the Ring and leaving the Shire isn't one.

In a move that surprises nobody, Tolkien actually drafted different versions of their story (well, the barest of bones of one, but still). History of Middle-Earth cites a (rough) note

Oh, very interesting. And it reawakened my anger that the latter half of HoME wasn't translated into French.

I seriously doubt this.

I mean, they are on a mission from God.

[Vinyadan]

so there is a possiblity - even if slim - that [Isildur] wouldn't have to deal with the Orcs if the Ring was not there.

There are a couple paces in LotR where it is hinted, although not explicitly said, that the Ring was still calling out evil creatures to strike. One is with the Watcher outside Moria (the big octopus):

'I do not know,' answered Gandalf, 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.

The other is the Orc chieftain in Moria, that dodges both Aragorn and Boromir to spear Frodo specifically (substituted by a large Troll in the film).

[Keltest]

By "them", I meant sauron and the Elves both.
I don't really buy the reasons you've given, whatever problems you're facing, it doesn't take 100 years to raise an army. (Also the Numenoreans weren't interventionists before that war so Sauron wouldn't have feared angering them by attacking the Elves).

Besides, whatever the reasons, the point remains that things move slowly in the Second and Third age. I have many criticisms of the PJ movies, but skipping the 19 years between Frodo receiving the Ring and leaving the Shire isn't one.

It wasnt raising the army that was the problem, it was the "marching them to the other side of the world through hostile territory" part.

[Thrudd]

I mean, they are on a mission from God.

Great. I'm never not going to hear Dan Aykroyd when I think about the Istari, now.

"Mithrandir why have you come here?"
"There once was an alliance of Elves and Men...We're getting the band back together."

[Zevox]

In Fellowship, the return of Sauron isn't a looming threat they've just recently become aware of. Everyone but the Hobbits already knows by the beginning of the story.

Even in the books it was a relatively recent discovery, confirmed by Gandalf when the White Council forced Sauron in his Necromancer guise from Dol Guldur during the events of The Hobbit. I thought the movies made it out to be even more recent, with Gandalf having only had it confirmed to him when he spoke with Saruman near the start of the film, but re-watching the scene, it's perhaps more accurate to say that Gandalf wasn't yet aware of how far along Sauron was in his return - he clearly wasn't aware that the Nazgul were back in action, or that Sauron was on the verge of bringing an army to bear against the free peoples, in the movies' portrayal, which is likely what I was remembering as him only recently becoming aware of the threat.

Huh. My impression from the movie was that that was during the height of Sauron's power.

As far as his personal power goes, it was, yes. But Sauron is a god, he's been around for longer than the world itself, and had his ups and downs. In the First Age he was the top lieutenant of a more powerful Dark Lord, Morgoth. When Morgoth was defeated in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, Sauron feigned contrition for his crimes, then escaped captivity and went into hiding for a few centuries, only to re-emerge and start setting himself up as the new Dark Lord of the world. It was during that time that he helped make the Rings of Power, and forged the One Ring to control them. His defeat at the end of the Second Age, which is what you saw at the start of LotR, was a greater fall for him personally - the destruction of his body and the loss of the One Ring, into which he had put much of his power, left him too weak to do anything for thousands of years, and even once he started to be able to influence the world again, he was so weak that he did so subtly, hiding behind the false identity of the Necromancer of Dol Guldur while gathering his power. Hence it taking so long for the people of Middle Earth to learn of his return in the Third Age (when LotR occurs), when it wouldn't have during the Second Age.

I don't recall anything saying the Blue Wizards were active in the Second Age. Unfinished Tales paints them as very much a Third Age thing.

Yeah, older versions might exist that had them in the Second Age, but in the final versions the Istari were only dispatched to Middle Earth in the Third Age, for sure.

And he's forgotten their names because of Intellectual Property Laws.

More because Tolkien never gave them names - at least not names they'd have been known by in their Wizard identities. We know their Maiar names, but since the others went by Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast instead of Olorin, Curumo, and Aiwendil, it's incredibly unlikely they simply went by those names.

[Fyraltari]

Even in the books it was a relatively recent discovery, confirmed by Gandalf when the White Council forced Sauron in his Necromancer guise from Dol Guldur during the events of The Hobbit.

Please. Gandalf has known for 169 years, the White Council has known for 78 years, Sauron openly declared his returned to the world 68 years prior. The war had already started by the time Fellowship hits its second chapter. The return of Sauron isn't a looming threat people recently became aware of.

But Sauron is a god

He wish, he's a demon with delusions of grandeur.

It was during that time that he helped make the Rings of Power, and forged the One Ring to control them. His defeat at the end of the Second Age, which is what you saw at the start of LotR, was a greater fall for him personally - the destruction of his body and the loss of the One Ring

Spoiler: for the show, most likely

Show

You skipped the part where he drowned with Numenor, had to lay low for a century and lost the ability to look good in a suit. O'd say he was bit weaker during the War of the Last Alliance than during thr one against Eregion.

More because Tolkien never gave them names - at least not names they'd have been known by in their Wizard identities. We know their Maiar names, but since the others went by Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast instead of Olorin, Curumo, and Aiwendil, it's incredibly unlikely they simply went by those names.

He did give them names! They're quoted upthread. Gandalf could have used them, he calls himself Olorin in Return of the King when listing his many name, so he's not forbidden from doing so. Unlike PJ and New Line.

[Zevox]

Please. Gandalf has known for 169 years, the White Council has known for 78 years, Sauron openly declared his returned to the world 68 years prior. The war had already started by the time Fellowship hits its second chapter. The return of Sauron isn't a looming threat people recently became aware of.

Hm, okay, double-checking the timeline in the appendices, Gandalf was aware for longer than I thought I recalled - he confirmed it by entering Dol Guldur well before the events of the Hobbit. Still, the movies certainly portray the realization of the immediate threat as having just happened when Saruman and Gandalf speak with each other near the start, and that is what this show is being based on.

He wish, he's a demon with delusions of grandeur.

Tolkien mentions that in his world men have often referred to the Ainur as gods, and between that and what they show they're capable of doing (Yavanna and Aule even display the power to create life, being responsible for the creation of plants and animals and the Dwarves respectively), I go with that. I'm aware some prefer to think of them as angels or the like instead, but I don't agree with that interpretation.

Spoiler: for the show, most likely

Show

You skipped the part where he drowned with Numenor, had to lay low for a century and lost the ability to look good in a suit. O'd say he was bit weaker during the War of the Last Alliance than during thr one against Eregion.

Yes, I skipped that because I didn't want to complicate the explanation even further for someone who has only seen the movies.

He did give them names! They're quoted upthread. Gandalf could have used them, he calls himself Olorin in Return of the King when listing his many name, so he's not forbidden from doing so. Unlike PJ and New Line.

I explicitly said I'm aware of their Maiar names, you don't need to remind me of those. It would nonetheless be out of place to use those when the other Wizards don't normally go by their Maiar names, even if Gandalf makes one reference to it at one point.

The sad truth is that the Blue Wizards are characters Tolkien barely did anything with. They came to Middle-Earth with the other Istari, vanished into the east alongside Saruman, and were never seen again, and there's not much more to say about them besides a tiny handful of possibilities from older versions of his writing that may or may not be relevant to the final versions.

[Mechalich]

It wasnt raising the army that was the problem, it was the "marching them to the other side of the world through hostile territory" part.

Well, I do think consolidating control took a lot of time too, possibly multiple generations.

Sauron spends a considerable amount of time, possibly centuries, masquerading as Annatar and residing in the west. During that time his active control over the men of the east and south will have degraded. Sure, his social engineering is still going strong, those kingdoms are extremely aggressive, they worship Melkor, and they hate the west, but their specific awareness of Sauron, the individual, as their lord and master will have faded because no one alive has ever seen him. That means when it is time to muster his armies Sauron has to go to all the various kings and tyrants of Harad, Khand, and Rhun and affirm their loyalties. And this is a huge area. Harad basically proxies Africa, complete with a proxy version of the Sahara. Khand is the Middle East, and Rhun represents Eastern Russia+some of Central Asia. Note, a useful bit about the geographic correspondence between our world and Middle-Earth is that Mordor more or less directly overlaps the geographic position of modern Turkey (there are historical parallels for the overall nature of the prolonged conflict based on this geography, but forum rules prohibit their discussion).

Exerting his authority over such a massive region would take Sauron considerable time. He probably has to visit hundreds of individual rulers in order to impose his will, and he has to do so sufficiently such that when the time does come to march in a couple decades everyone remains sufficiently terrified of him that they don't say anything in response to his otherwise absurd command - for some of the guys down in Far Harad they are being asked to do the equivalent, in distance, of marching overland from Sudan to France - other than 'Yes master.' Those purges must have been nearly unimaginable in their cruelty. Even when he did put out the call it probably took some forces years to just get to Mordor, and then they spent years more on campaign. Some of Sauron's troops, fighting in Eregion, are as far from home as Alexander the Great's army in India, and probably for about as long too.

[Peelee]

He wish, he's a demon with delusions of grandeur.

In Middle Earth, what's the difference?

[Fyraltari]

In Middle Earth, what's the difference?

The gods don't have temples. Counter-intuitive, I know.

More seriously, there's only one God, Eru Illuvatar (literally "The One, The All-Father") and 15 gods, the Valar (literally "The Powers") and Sauron is another step below in the celestial pecking order.

[Keltest]

In Middle Earth, what's the difference?

In all honesty, a real technical explanation of the distinction would probably tread dangerously close to the forum rules on religion. Tolkien based his cosmology pretty heavily on his own personal religious beliefs.

[Zevox]

The gods don't have temples. Counter-intuitive, I know.

More seriously, there's only one God, Eru Illuvatar (literally "The One, The All-Father") and 15 gods, the Valar (literally "The Powers") and Sauron is another step below in the celestial pecking order.

The only thing separating the Valar from the Maiar is power and status. All are of the same people, the Ainur. If the Valar are gods, so too are the Maiar, just lesser or demi-gods to the Valar's greater gods.

[Vinyadan]

There also is a little part in the Return of the Kings: "Fey he (Theoden) seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new tire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young." Here the Valar seem similar to gods.

The letters refer to the Valar as both things, however distinguishing quite well what Tolkien meant (Letter 153).

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the
Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we
should say, with their attendant lesser angels – reverend, therefore, but not worshipful* ; and though
potently 'subcreative', and resident on Earth to which they are bound by love, having assisted in its
making and ordering, they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision. They called
upon the One in the crisis of the rebellion of Numenor – when the Númenóreans attempted to take
the Undying Land by force of a great armada in their lust for corporal immortality – which
necessitated a catastrophic change in the shape of Earth. Immortality and Mortality being the
special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it
must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in
one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of
God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the
ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

* There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or
no'religion'in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala(as Elbereth), as [...] on a Saint,
though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a
'primitive age': and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors,
and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do
not think Hobbits practised any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The
Númenóreans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgoth, even if they elected to remain in
Middle-earth and did not go to Númenor: such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in
Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven,
was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised,
and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Numenor fell and was destroyed and the
Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the
false religion nor taken part in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and
metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat'.

[Talakeal]

I am really looking forward to the show, but the negativity around it is really making me sad.

I feel like the Lord of the Rings fandom is populated by a lot of purists who hate any sort of addition to or deviation from Tolkien's original manuscripts {Scrubbed}. Together, this has made for kind of a perfect storm of internet outrage.

The discussion above is kind of the first type; because imo while elves jumping on swords and surfing on shields aren't directly from Tolkien's books, they are the type of thing that could be in there. Sometimes people even complain about stuff that IS in Tolkien's books, like Legolas beating Gimle in a drinking contest or Thorin rafting on molten gold, even though we are directly told in the hobbit that ordinary alcohol doesn't get elves drunk and that dwarves are incredibly resistant to heat.


{Scrubbed} And I am like, you know adaptations violate canon all the time, often for good reasons. Like, does anyone think IT would be better with a preteen sewer orgy or The Godfather is terrible because it doesn't include a subplot about oversized genitals? Or any 1800s novel going off on long non-fiction tangents about various trades and crafts. {Scrubbed}

[Eldan]

In Middle Earth, what's the difference?

There's one God, Eru Illuvatar {Scrubbed}. He isn't worshipped yet at the time of Lord of the Rings{Scrubbed}. Instead, he rules through a hierarchy of spirits who do his will. Those are the ones who take the role of {Scrubbed} gods, angels, demons and so on, with a hierarchy going down all the way from Morgoth {Scrubbed} over people like Sauron to Gandalf.

[Psyren]

I am really looking forward to the show, but the negativity around it is really making me sad.

I feel like the Lord of the Rings fandom is populated by a lot of purists who hate any sort of addition to or deviation from Tolkien's original manuscripts *snip*

Right. I'm not the biggest Tolkien fan out there, but I saw exactly the same pattern with Wheel of Time.

The discussion above is kind of the first type; because imo while elves jumping on swords and surfing on shields aren't directly from Tolkien's books, they are the type of thing that could be in there. Sometimes people even complain about stuff that IS in Tolkien's books, like Legolas beating Gimle in a drinking contest or Thorin rafting on molten gold, even though we are directly told in the hobbit that ordinary alcohol doesn't get elves drunk and that dwarves are incredibly resistant to heat.

This - even if Tolkien himself didn't write that stunt, I don't think it's all that outlandish all things considered.

[Divayth Fyr]

I feel like the Lord of the Rings fandom is populated by a lot of purists who hate any sort of addition to or deviation from Tolkien's original manuscripts {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} Together, this has made for kind of a perfect storm of internet outrage.

{Scrubbed}

that dwarves are incredibly resistant to heat.

There is a lot of room between "incredibly resistant to heat" and "doesn't really mind being in contact with stuff over 1000 celsius"

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[Talakeal]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

There is a lot of room between "incredibly resistant to heat" and "doesn't really mind being in contact with stuff over 1000 celsius"

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Never mind,.


Although, out of curiosity, where have there been black dwarves before? I can't recall any.