LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Divayth Fyr]

Never mind,.


Although, out of curiosity, where have there been black dwarves before? I can't recall any.

At the very least, Willow featured one.

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[Talakeal]

At the very least, Willow featured one.

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Oh ok. I thought you meant in LoTR.

Although I would argue that the Nelwyn aren’t dwarves, they are closer to hobbits, I am sure there are black dwarves in other media, even if the only one I can think of off the top of my head is in, shudder, Epic Movie.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Closed for Review

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread re-opened. Please keep comments to the show, and not the various real-world issues surrounding the show.

[Psyren]

At the very least, Willow featured one.

Even if they were called dwarves in Willow I would definitely label those hobbits. Parochial, genial, conciliatory, etc.


Anyway, question for the book-scholars: did Galadriel ever face off against a Balrog in the books? Or several maybe? I'm trying to predict who might end up fighting the one we saw in the trailer. Also, which Wizards do we expect to show up?

[Thrudd]

Even if they were called dwarves in Willow I would definitely label those hobbits. Parochial, genial, conciliatory, etc.

Anyway, question for the book-scholars: did Galadriel ever face off against a Balrog in the books? Or several maybe? I'm trying to predict who might end up fighting the one we saw in the trailer. Also, which Wizards do we expect to show up?

No. Galadriel did no explicit fighting in the books. The most detail about what she does in the Second Age is in "Unfinished Tales", where we learn that she always distrusted Annatar (the Maia offering knowledge of making magic rings) and warned Celebrimbor not to trust him. It was her idea to not use the Three rings so Sauron couldn't find them once he revealed himself. She spends the second age first living in the High King's domain by the sea, then moves to Eregion (where the rings are being made), and then moves to Lorien, where they end up staying. That's pretty much all we get.

The only detailed Balrog fight in the books is in the First Age, long before the events of the show- it was Glorfindel who killed it (and died in the process). He got a special dispensation later on to return from the Elven afterlife and go back to Middle Earth to help Elrond.

I'm sure the show will be partly taking place in Eregion, the elven kingdom right next to Moria, and it's possible the Balrog there will be encountered at some point -though that isn't supposed to happen until a few thousand years after the show is taking place.
The Balrogs could also be flashbacks to the first age, when Galadriel and her kin could have been fighting Balrogs left and right in Morgoth's army.

There should be no wizards in the show. If there would be any, it would need to be the "blue wizards", who are described as arriving in the second age to try to lessen Sauron's influence among the human kingdoms east and south of Mordor (in a fragmentary note written at a late date in his life). However, in a (sort of) published source, "Unfinished Tales" again, they are described as coming in the third age along with Gandalf and the others. So it's remotely possible they'll be puttering around, though I'd be surprised if it was more than a cameo, since the show already seems to have a lot of potential leads and multiple locations.

[Zevox]

I am really looking forward to the show, but the negativity around it is really making me sad.

I feel like the Lord of the Rings fandom is populated by a lot of purists who hate any sort of addition to or deviation from Tolkien's original manuscripts {Scrubbed}. Together, this has made for kind of a perfect storm of internet outrage.

The discussion above is kind of the first type; because imo while elves jumping on swords and surfing on shields aren't directly from Tolkien's books, they are the type of thing that could be in there. Sometimes people even complain about stuff that IS in Tolkien's books, like Legolas beating Gimle in a drinking contest or Thorin rafting on molten gold, even though we are directly told in the hobbit that ordinary alcohol doesn't get elves drunk and that dwarves are incredibly resistant to heat.

This shouldn't be surprising at all. People who like certain stories will naturally want an adaptation of those stories to be faithful to what they like about them. Which isn't to say you can't change things - for instance, I'd never criticize the Peter Jackson films for not including Tom Bombadil, or for claiming that Sauron couldn't take physical form at all. The former makes perfect sense why you'd want to do it, and the latter didn't hurt anything since Sauron never does show himself physically anyway. And you can make changes I might criticize but still create a good product, too - again, with the films, I very much think the decision to have the Army of the Dead be the reason the Battle of Pelennor Fields was won was a mistake, but that doesn't ruin the films when they did so much else right. But when what we're seeing of the show is ranging from trailers that make me think "eh, this seems fine, but isn't selling me on this" to snippets that make me think "oh, that's a bad sign," well, yeah, I'm not seeing any reason for optimism at this time.

Anyway, question for the book-scholars: did Galadriel ever face off against a Balrog in the books? Or several maybe? I'm trying to predict who might end up fighting the one we saw in the trailer. Also, which Wizards do we expect to show up?

Not at all. Durin's Bane is the only Balrog we're aware of to have survived past the First Age, and if you saw the movies, you know what it's known for. Woken up by the Dwarves of Moria in the Third Age, slew Durin the Sixth and drove his people from Moria, prowled Moria for over a millennia thereafter (slaying more Dwarves when they tried to retake Moria once), eventually fought, slew, and was slain by Gandalf. There are a few instances of Balrogs fighting Elves in the First Age, but Galadriel was not involved in any of those.

And no Wizards whatsoever. They don't enter the picture until the Third Age. Their whole task is to help guard against Sauron's return after his defeat by the Last Alliance.

[Fyraltari]

No. Galadriel did no explicit fighting in the books.

One version of her backstory has her fighting alongside the Sea Elves during the First Kinslaying.

Also she destroyed Dol Guldur but it's unclear how much actual fighting she did versus undoing the foul enchantments on the place.

[Sapphire Guard]

There are scumbags in every fandom, especially one as big as LOTR. There is undeniably a lot of bad faith takes and purism floating around, but there's more to the negativity than that.

Everyone knows there is going to be changes, that's immediately clear once the showrunners explained the time compression. There's no hint of any rings of power in any of the marketing, probably because they haven't been forged yet. But people like Isildur are already cast in Season 1, even though he is born centuries later in the book. So the showrunners will have to square that circle with a story about Numenor politics or something.

There has been three main strands of marketing 'practical effects', 'budget of 1 billion', and 'diversity'. The budget one backfired hard, because people can point to any imperfections and say 'where did the money go?' Practical effects are not impressive for a production on this scale, of course they have practical effects, that's not something to take pride in.

And then there's diversity. If anything, it doesn't go far enough, so far we haven't seen bearded female dwarves, Miriel has been demoted to 'Queen-Regent' from someone ruling in her own name, Galadriel is mysteriously alone much of the time or with Numenorians, she seems to be acting alone or with non elven allies much of the time rather than with the support of her society. She appears to be downgraded from 'respected queen' to 'rebellious princess no one listens to', and they go out of their way to show Elrond talking down to her. Maybe that's not representative, but if it isn't, why is it in the trailer? That's where the representative things are supposed to be.

A number of interesting things happened with the production. Respected Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey left the production under mysterious circumstances, and they've now moved away from New Zealand, so all those meticulous sets will have to be deconstructed and transported across the world or rebuilt. That expensive and difficult decision wasn't made on a whim, something happened to cause that.

Also, the showrunners don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, just the appendices to LOTR, and the Silmarillion is where much of the events of the Second Age are told. So they have a difficult task ahead of them.

For all the talk about purists drawing on external material, a lot of the excitement comes from people drawing from external material, but it's the movies rather than the books. I guess that's allowed, then? Like, there's a lot of fuss about the return of the Balrog design in one trailer.

The marketing itself has told us mysteriously little about the story. Galadriel is seeking Sauron, who is in hiding, but what are the Harfoots, Dwarves, and Numenorians doing? We still have no idea. There is apparently a forbidden love romance between an elf and human, which is odd as in Tolkien's lore that is quite a big deal, you have songs written about you if you do that.

We have the example of the Wheel of Time, which is much easier to adapt. And while those showrunners did a lot of pragmatic necessary adaptations, they also did some crazy things like

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giving Perrin a wife only to immediately fridge her, or having Moiraine swear a magically binding oath of obedience to her lover (unfortunate implications off the charts) for dubious reasons.

WOTs production was unlucky in that it was caught by Covid and had a lead actor depart under equally mysterious circumstances mid production.

On the whole, the excited people are not talking about exciting things in the marketing, they're talking about things from the movies apart from this one. You don't hear conversations about the fight with the Snow Troll or wondering what's the deal with that magic sword, the excited conversations are about more Lord of the Rings content(not Rings of Power) elements or things like the good design of the orcs at best.

The show might still surprise us, but there are reasons for the negativity beyond purism and racism.

[Peelee]

Durin's Bane is the only Balrog we're aware of to have survived past the First Age, and if you saw the movies, you know what it's known for. Woken up by the Dwarves of Moria in the Third Age, slew Durin the Sixth and drove his people from Moria, prowled Moria for over a millennia thereafter

Uh, having seen the movies, I was not aware that's what it was known for. Really seemed like it's awakening and slaughter was a much more recent thing, seeing as how Gimli was talking up Moria as a safe possibility. Like, a couple decades ago or so, long enough for the dwarves to decompose but not long enough for Gimli to be aware.

[hamishspence]

In the books, the Dwarves spent the last few decades between The Hobbit and FOTR in a "reclaim Moria" effort.

[Fyraltari]

Uh, having seen the movies, I was not aware that's what it was known for. Really seemed like it's awakening and slaughter was a much more recent thing, seeing as how Gimli was talking up Moria as a safe possibility. Like, a couple decades ago or so, long enough for the dwarves to decompose but not long enough for Gimli to be aware.

The movies really flipped the whole "going through Moria or not" thing upside down. In the books the whole of the Fellowship is aware that Moria is a terrible, terrible place, second only to Mordor in danger and the reason Gimli wants to go is because they've lost contact with Balin's expedition.

The Longbeards (Gimli's dwarven clan) were originally from Moria (or rather Khazad-Dûm as they called it) but had to flee after a monster awoke and drove them off, killing King Durin V. That's why Thorin's grandfather, Thror moved to the Lonely Mountain. What the Fellowship (or anyone else for that matter) knew was that "Durin's Bane" was Balrog, they just knew there was some sort of evil down there. Also Gandalf is the one to suggest going through Moria and Aragorn (and Boromir as well) is the one who doesn't want to. 'coz he's got a low-level foresight ability.

[KorvinStarmast]

Respected Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey left the production under mysterious circumstances

That's disappointing.

WOTs production was unlucky in that it was caught by Covid and had a lead actor depart under equally mysterious circumstances mid production.

Which lead actor quit?

I am looking forward to this show.

[Vinyadan]

Uh, having seen the movies, I was not aware that's what it was known for. Really seemed like it's awakening and slaughter was a much more recent thing, seeing as how Gimli was talking up Moria as a safe possibility. Like, a couple decades ago or so, long enough for the dwarves to decompose but not long enough for Gimli to be aware.

Gimli in the movies thought (wishfully?) that Balin's attempt to recolonise Moria had been successful, so he lauded what he believed the Fellowship would find. But in the books the Dwarves weren't united in the idea of returning there, and there were many reasons to worry about the situation in Moria.

The Balrog killed the king of Moria, Durin VII, in 1980. In 1981, he killed his successor, Nain I. The Dwarves then abandoned Moria and Thrain, son of Nain I, founded the Dwarf Kingdom at Erebor in 1999. In 2770 Smaug conquers Erebor and the reigning family (Thrain II, Thror, and Thorin Oakenshield) flee from it. With just one servant, Thror tries to enter Moria, where he is killed by Orcs. This triggers a major war between the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and the Dwarves, ending in a large battle at the gates of Moria. In the final phase of the battle, Dain Ironfoot pursued the Orc commander Azog to the gates and killed him (the Orc in the Hobbit was his son, Bolg). So he could watch inside the gates and saw the Balrog. When there was a discussion with Thrain II about retaking Moria, he refused to follow and strongly advised against it, because of the Balrog, so the proposal of resettling it didn't go anywhere. In 2989, Balin nevertheless decides to enter Moria and resettle it, against the wishes of Dain, who had become king of Erebor after the events of the Hobbit. The colony is destroyed in 2994. The Fellowship entered Moria in 3019, after more than 20 years of silence from Moria. In the book, Gloin and Gimli had come to Rivendell to also ask for advice about him.

[Peelee]

Gimli in the movies thought (wishfully?) that Balin's attempt to recolonise Moria had been successful, so he lauded what he believed the Fellowship would find.

Ok, but that's not communicated in the movie. That's still requiring context from the book to justify why he's saying what he's saying.from the perspective of someone who has only watched the movies (eg, me) it is not true that "if you saw the movies, you know what it's known for." Unless "what it's known for" is "being a big scary fire monster that the wizard apparently knows".

[Fyraltari]

Ok, but that's not communicated in the movie. That's still requiring context from the book to justify why he's saying what he's saying.from the perspective of someone who has only watched the movies (eg, me) it is not true that "if you saw the movies, you know what it's known for." Unless "what it's known for" is "being a big scary fire monster that the wizard apparently knows".

It's very subtle but Saruman reads a book that has a drawing of the Balrog on one page and on the page before a drawing of the Gates of Moria.

Spoiler: compare with this shot later in the movie

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Implying that the connection between Durin's Bane and the Dwarves is already known.

With that said, the movie doesn't elaborate at all, and with Gimli simply stating that his "cousin" Balin lives in Moria with no explanation of what he's doing over there and Gandalf being the only one apprehensive about the place, the watcher is lead to conclude that there's a long established dwarf kingdom in Moria.

The Hobbit movies does feature the war of the Dwarves trying and failing to get back Moria (where Thorin's grandad dies) but I don't remember if they made it clear that was where that was happening.

[Thrudd]

Ok, but that's not communicated in the movie. That's still requiring context from the book to justify why he's saying what he's saying.from the perspective of someone who has only watched the movies (eg, me) it is not true that "if you saw the movies, you know what it's known for." Unless "what it's known for" is "being a big scary fire monster that the wizard apparently knows".

Right. It's a flaw in logic of the film, having Gandalf openly fearful of going into Moria when Gimli seems to think everything is great there. If they really thought the Dwarves were in control there, that definitely would have been the first and obvious path to take through the mountains, especially having a relative of Balin in their party. It would have been easy to include a line at some point telling us that Gimli wants to know what happened to his kin, who he hasn't heard from in years, knowing there are likely risks - rather than acting like he thinks they're going to be feasting there. Just one of the niggling flaws in the films that make them less-than perfect.

[Divayth Fyr]

Oh ok. I thought you meant in LoTR.

Not what she keeps claiming, so I see no reason to limit it like that. Even moreso since at least in some cases she explicitely calls herself the first black dwarf in television/media.

Although I would argue that the Nelwyn aren’t dwarves, they are closer to hobbits, I am sure there are black dwarves in other media, even if the only one I can think of off the top of my head is in, shudder, Epic Movie.

I can't honestly remember if the Nelwyn were called dwarves in the movie/books, but close enough (even moreso with Nelwyn Dwarfs being used in so many places all around the web) ;)

[hamishspence]

I can't honestly remember if the Nelwyn were called dwarves in the movie/books, but close enough (even moreso with Nelwyn Dwarfs being used in so many places all around the web) ;)

Book series (Chronicles of the Shadow War) Nelwyn certainly skewed more toward the "fantasy dwarf" trope- extremely strong for their size, dwell in mines in mountains, have master smiths, etc.

[Sapphire Guard]

Which lead actor quit?

Barney Harris, cast as Mat, left the production mid season one. No announcement was made as to why, so we don't know if he quit, was fired, or was forced out by some other circumstances. There are a bunch of conflicting rumours, but nothing that sounds based on anyone having actual knowledge.

Something else that may not be noteworthy at all. Princess Disa is Princess Disa, ie. also not a Queen, even though she's married to Durin IV (Durin III is still in power, so this actually makes sense, may be a reach.)

That makes 3 female leads that it would make sense to be Queens oddly demoted to something else. Miriel moves from Queen to Queen-Regent, Galadriel is 'Commander of the Northern Armies' and Disa is a Princess. Why no Queens?

Edit: Not a complaint, just an odd creative choice.

[Zevox]

Uh, having seen the movies, I was not aware that's what it was known for. Really seemed like it's awakening and slaughter was a much more recent thing, seeing as how Gimli was talking up Moria as a safe possibility. Like, a couple decades ago or so, long enough for the dwarves to decompose but not long enough for Gimli to be aware.

Not having re-watched the movies in a while, I'll take your word for it. I thought they made it clear that Balin's expedition that Gimli was so interested in meeting up with was trying to reclaim Moria, which had been lost to them long ago, but it's entirely possible that not making that clear is a weakness of the film that I missed due to being familiar with the books.

[Peelee]

Not having re-watched the movies in a while, I'll take your word for it. I thought they made it clear that Balin's expedition that Gimli was so interested in meeting up with was trying to reclaim Moria, which had been lost to them long ago, but it's entirely possible that not making that clear is a weakness of the film that I missed due to being familiar with the books.

I wasn't even aware it was an expedition until this thread - I was under the impression it was just the home of Balin and his clan, the way that Erebor was the home or Thror and his kingdom.

[Zevox]

I wasn't even aware it was an expedition until this thread - I was under the impression it was just the home of Balin and his clan, the way that Erebor was the home or Thror and his kingdom.

Ironically, in a way, that's accurate. Both are the ancestral homes of those Dwarves, lost generations before the events of the films. The Dwarves were just driven from Moria by the Balrog much longer ago than they were driven from Erebor by Smaug.

[Peelee]

Ironically, in a way, that's accurate. Both are the ancestral homes of those Dwarves, lost generations before the events of the films. The Dwarves were just driven from Moria by the Balrog much longer ago than they were driven from Erebor by Smaug.

See that's neat! And the kind of thing that would have been cool to find out in the dang movie!

Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I have another question. The dwarves that the Fellowship finds in the room are decomposed, looks like naturally so, not eaten or anything. So that must have been some time ago. But they recorded the goblins who presumably killed them, and then the goblins are still there when the Fellowship comes in. We're the goblins just more successful at reclaiming Moria? They were also terrified of the Balrog, so it seems like Moria was still a perfectly fine place to live even with the Balrog so long as you hid when it came around, or so.

Or is it just a plot coincidence that goblins happened to be present when the Fellowship went in?

[Keltest]

See that's neat! And the kind of thing that would have been cool to find out in the dang movie!

Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I have another question. The dwarves that the Fellowship finds in the room are decomposed, looks like naturally so, not eaten or anything. So that must have been some time ago. But they recorded the goblins who presumably killed them, and then the goblins are still there when the Fellowship comes in. We're the goblins just more successful at reclaiming Moria? They were also terrified of the Balrog, so it seems like Moria was still a perfectly fine place to live even with the Balrog so long as you hid when it came around, or so.

Or is it just a plot coincidence that goblins happened to be present when the Fellowship went in?

The Baelrog was sort of their boss, except he didn't have an agenda beyond smashing stuff. It is an example of evil being one big unhappy family who can room together sometimes.

The specific relationship is never expounded on, but Durin's Bane is big and invincible, and the orcs are small and vincible.

[Zevox]

See that's neat! And the kind of thing that would have been cool to find out in the dang movie!

Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I have another question. The dwarves that the Fellowship finds in the room are decomposed, looks like naturally so, not eaten or anything. So that must have been some time ago. But they recorded the goblins who presumably killed them, and then the goblins are still there when the Fellowship comes in. We're the goblins just more successful at reclaiming Moria? They were also terrified of the Balrog, so it seems like Moria was still a perfectly fine place to live even with the Balrog so long as you hid when it came around, or so.

Or is it just a plot coincidence that goblins happened to be present when the Fellowship went in?

The Goblins came to inhabit Moria several hundred years after the Dwarves were driven from it. They do fear the Balrog (because everything fears the Balrog), but have a sort of uneasy peace with it. As other creatures twisted by its original master, Morgoth, it would have no reason to seek to kill them actively - they're the remnants of its former allies from the First Age, effectively. Dwarves trying to retake Moria for themselves would be quite another matter, as the Dwarves were among Morgoth's enemies.

As far as the timing of Balin's expedition, they set out on it about thirty years before the events of LotR, and were slain five years after that, so they'd been dead twenty-five years.
Edit: derp, did my math wrong on the timing of that, correcting it.

[Sapphire Guard]

IIRC they don't mention the Balrog in the records in the chamber of Mazarbul, (if I remember incorrectly, I'm sure someone will correct me), so it's not necessarily active all the time, it's something of a Landlord that bangs on the ceiling if those kids upstairs make too much noise. Annoying it is a very bad idea, but if you stay quiet and keep your heads down, maybe he won't bother climbing the stairs.

[Fyraltari]

See that's neat! And the kind of thing that would have been cool to find out in the dang movie!

If the movies integrated all the coll stuff from the books they'd be easily twice as long. Moria's backstory isn't really relevant to the story, so I hardly blame the movies for skipping it. Still I feel they shouldn't have made it so Gandalf was aware it was dangerous but gimli thought it was peachy, that just makes Gimli look bad.

Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I have another question. The dwarves that the Fellowship finds in the room are decomposed, looks like naturally so, not eaten or anything. So that must have been some time ago. But they recorded the goblins who presumably killed them, and then the goblins are still there when the Fellowship comes in. We're the goblins just more successful at reclaiming Moria? They were also terrified of the Balrog, so it seems like Moria was still a perfectly fine place to live even with the Balrog so long as you hid when it came around, or so.

Or is it just a plot coincidence that goblins happened to be present when the Fellowship went in?

The goblins of the Misty Mountains settled Moria at some point after the Dwarves left it. We don't know when (because we have no point of view of the evil side) but Azog the defiler styled himself King there around the time the Dwarves were driven out of the Lonely Mountain. the goblins were never really driven out themselves. Even Balin's expedition was only succeful in establishing a foothold rather than retaking the kingdom. He ruled from the archive room!

Another neat thing is that one goal of his expedition was to find the Ring (one of the seven) that was given to their clan as he erroneously believed that Thror had it with him when Azog killed him (If he'd asked Gandalf, he would have known that Thror had given the Ring to his son Thrain and that sauron had stolen it from him.)

As for the Balrog, we don't actually know what his relationship with the goblins was. Unlike in the movie tthey seem to cooperate with him (though still terrified of him) as they charge the Fellowship together. However, some of the goblins are Black Uruks bearing the symbol of the Eye. Whetehr that means that the whole tribe had pledged service to Mordor of if those were ambassadors to the Balrog* isn't clarified. Finally the group that attacks the Fellowship and kills Boromir isn't just made of Isengardian Uruk-Hai, but of Isengardain (some of whome are Uruk-Hai), Mordorians and Orcs from the Misty Mountains. Out of the tree, this last group does not care at all for the Ring or the War and only wants to avenge the captain the Fellowship killed*. They make no mention of the Balrog, but they may simply not be aware he was dead.

*Gandalf suspects Sauron was trying to recruit Smaug way back when, doing the same with Durin's Bane makes sense.
**In the movie, this is replaced by an Orc wanting to eat Merry and Pippin's legs.

eDIT: Also, yes Balin's expedition apparently had no run-in with the Balrog. Except maybe at the very end. drums in the deep. They are coming.

[Vinyadan]

See that's neat! And the kind of thing that would have been cool to find out in the dang movie!

Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I have another question. The dwarves that the Fellowship finds in the room are decomposed, looks like naturally so, not eaten or anything. So that must have been some time ago. But they recorded the goblins who presumably killed them, and then the goblins are still there when the Fellowship comes in. We're the goblins just more successful at reclaiming Moria? They were also terrified of the Balrog, so it seems like Moria was still a perfectly fine place to live even with the Balrog so long as you hid when it came around, or so.

Or is it just a plot coincidence that goblins happened to be present when the Fellowship went in?

Concerning that cohabitation, there's the question of how much control Sauron had over Moria, Caradhras, and the Balrog. It's a question that is never completely answered in the book, but Gandalf suspected that the storm on the mountains was a courtesy of Sauron; near Moria, the Fellowship was attacked by wolves that Gandalf considered intelligent and addressed as "Hound of Sauron", and whose bodies disappeared after the fight; Moria contained Uruks of Mordor; and Sauron's emissary promised Dain that Moria would return to the Dwarves, if he sided with him (a possible lie, but it implicitly asserted Sauron's control over it, and the fact that he was one of the very few powers that could get the Balrog to leave).

So Sauron and the Balrog were probably fully aware of each other, and, for the Balrog, it was like being back to the Old Days, with a new Dark Lord in charge and a fortress full of minions. At the same time, the Orcs would have been aware of just how outclassed they were by the Balrog, and how cruel, different, and powerful he was. Sam and Frodo overheard some conversations between the Orcs where the subject were the Nazgul, and it's clear that they hated them, but were also terrified of them and recognised their immense power (while rejoicing of the death of their leader and using them to scare each other into compliance). The relationship with the Balrog was probably similar. Gandalf says that the Orcs were afraid and went silent when the Balrog entered the room he was trying to lock, and they were afraid later when he revealed himself to the Fellowship, but they did not hide and instead, after some time, they yelled and kept going.

[warty goblin]

The Book of Mazarbul doesn't mention the Balrog directly at all, but what we read of it is very fragmented. It does mention the drums in the deep, which are associated with the Balrog in some way, but do not seem to be beaten by the Balrog; they continue after the Balrog falls.

The whole Moria sequence is slightly opaque in the book. Pippen drops a stone down a well, the sound of a hammer echoes up the well, then later the Balrog attacks the chamber of Mazarbul, but only after the fellowship drives the orcs back. What exactly was hammering, and what that hammering was doing is never explained, leaving the whole thing delightfully mysterious.