LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Fyraltari]

MTo me, the conclusion seems obvious: Celebrimbor intended Narya as a surprise present for his good friend, Annatar.

Oh man, now I'm sad.

[Kornaki]

Oof, sounds like they have messed up the whole full of Numenor pretty badly. Seriously, it had everything you needed already without needing to make changes.

After having seen Ender's Game and Ready Player One in theater, I can confirm that sometimes change to fit the medium better is required. Let's see how it plays out.

[Aedilred]

Leaving aside that it's really silly to complain about the looks of fictionnal people who belong to a fictionnal ethnicity...

The Numenoreans are a people of mixed ancestry already. The people of Haleth's description in particular more-or-less matches Mediterranean phenotypes, so dark-skinned Numenoreans shouldn't be that uncommon.

"It's fantasy/fiction" is a terrible excuse for bad worldbuilding. Especially when it comes to interpretations of Tolkien's work which was so extensively and carefully built.

And this is a question of world-building. It might not just be a question of that, and if people want to say "inclusion is more important than consistent world-building" then sure, I might disagree, but firstly, privilege, and secondly, at least that's being honest about relative priorities.

When it comes to skin coloration (and some other obvious markers of ethnic distinction) as a pure world-building exercise, I think there are a couple of points that are relevant:

• These traits tend to develop at least initially in response to environmental pressures and therefore tend to be geographically distinct. It is unlikely that two groups of people with markedly dissimilar features will arise close to one another. Note that this applies whether the people in question have evolved naturally (as IRL) or have been created directly by divine agents (as in Arda) because unless the creator is being deliberately stupid, they won't create people whose adaptations are wrong for their environment (no fair-skinned gingers in a sun-baked desert, etc.).
• Mixed groups will homogenise over time, within a few generations, unless there is a particular reason why the different groups haven't interbred.
• Individuals tend to leave little visual trace on larger populations: in order to effect large-scale change to a population's appearance, the number of people involved must be significant.
• People who are closely related tend to share at least some visual characteristics.

I don't think any of the above points are controversial, and we would expect them to apply in a fictional world just as in the real one.

With those in mind, let's look at Numenor. We don't know a huge amount about the origins of the Edain, as they arrived in Beleriand already identifiable (albeit in three houses). So far as I'm aware, it is possible that they were originally a single (broadly homogenous) people who divided into three tribes for essentially political reasons, or that they were a confederation of three heterogenous tribes from all over the place. In any case, the drowning of Beleriand will have led to peoples being displaced and moved around and it is safe to assume that the Edain who settled on Numenor could have been of mixed ancestry. So far so good.

But that was roughly three thousand years ago. Even accounting for long Dunedain lifespans, Miriel and Ar-Pharazon are roughly 25th-generation Numenorians (and while the Dunedain are long-lived, it is possible that the population at large does not benefit to the same extent from the extended lifespans of the descendants of Earendil, so the wider population may have another few generations in it). We would therefore expect the ethnic distinctions between the original Edain and/or Numenorians to have been almost entirely erased by this point in history.

We are not aware that there has been any significant, i.e. mass immigration to Numenor since its founding. Nothing that leaves a trace in the legendarium, anyway. While there may well have been individual immigrants or families, their descendants will by now have disappeared into the general mass of Numenorian faces. We would expect Numenor to look pretty homogenous.

And yet we have here two first cousins, one of whom is Whitey McWhite (or rather, Whitey ap White) and the other is mixed-race. I think it's reasonable therefore to ask, in the context of the setting, why.

The obvious (Watsonian) answer is that Miriel's mother was dark-skinned, since she is the unknown factor in their shared ancestry (and because of the way coloration works, if Pharazon were the exception in this respect, you would still expect his skin to be darker than it is). So who was Miriel's mother? The easy answer is "a foreign princess" - and royalty are often exempt from the individuals-not-leaving-much-of-a-trace rule, thanks to small sample sizes and a frequently high proportion of imported spouses. If this is the case, it would still be nice to know who that princess was, and if it's going to have any political implications, but it's an acceptable answer that doesn't require much adjustment of the setting as currently understood. This answer would however imply that the Numenorian population, Miriel is going to look relatively unusual, and given what we've seen in the trailers, I would be surprised if that's what we're going to see.

If Miriel's mother is a native Numenorian, or indeed if Numenorians do have a visually diverse population, this raises the question of why there are distinct population of light and dark-skinned Numenorians (as opposed to Black Numenorians, to be clear) so long after we would normally expect such differences to have been erased. That is something one would expect to have a plot explanation, because apart from anything else it suggests things about the shape of Numenorian society and politics.

The Doylist reasoning for this is obvious, and that's that the showrunners want the visuals of the show to reflect modern America/Britain. But I think we're entitled to ask for a Watsonian answer too - and indeed given which setting we're working with and the attention to detail Tolkien put into the building of it it seems almost disrespectful for there not to be one.

I'm not trrying to gotcha anything here. I hope there is an explanation and if there is a plausible one I will accept (and adopt!) it without argument. But "it's fiction so it doesn't matter" isn't good enough, and, for this setting at least, "inclusion so shut up" isn't really satisfactory either if the creators want me to fall for this show in the way I did for the books and movies.

Looking at some pictures, really shows how badly the various actors are cast in regards to their characters' ages. Celebrimbor looks way, way older than Galadriel, despite her being the far older one, and similiar is seen with the royal family of Numenor...

Incidentally, while the beard and hair disguise it, the actor playing Pharazon is only a couple of years older than the one playing Miriel. I believe, too, that that is his natural hair and beard colour, based on other photos I've seen. If you can see past the grey, they look a lot closer in age than at first glance. And the guy playing Elendil is 15-20 years older than them, oddly enough.

[Mechalich]

These traits tend to develop at least initially in response to environmental pressures and therefore tend to be geographically distinct. It is unlikely that two groups of people with markedly dissimilar features will arise close to one another. Note that this applies whether the people in question have evolved naturally (as IRL) or have been created directly by divine agents (as in Arda) because unless the creator is being deliberately stupid, they won't create people whose adaptations are wrong for their environment (no fair-skinned gingers in a sun-baked desert, etc.).

Also, we know this is how Tolkien set up Middle-Earth. The part of the continent we see in his stories represents the Northwestern region of a much larger landmass, one that is approximately parallel with Europe-Africa-Asia in overall geographical structure. And the people native to the northern regions are paler than those found further south. The distribution of these peoples is perfectly sensible, their allegiance gets nasty and political and we can't discuss it, but who lives where makes sense biologically.

We are not aware that there has been any significant, i.e. mass immigration to Numenor since its founding. Nothing that leaves a trace in the legendarium, anyway. While there may well have been individual immigrants or families, their descendants will by now have disappeared into the general mass of Numenorian faces. We would expect Numenor to look pretty homogenous.

There's a possible option here. Numenor had extensive colonies throughout Middle Earth, some of which reached quite far to the East and South, such as Umbar, and there's nothing to say Numenorean mariners couldn't have gone much further. Also, because the timeline is compressed, we also have the Numenoreans presumably deep into their corrupt phase by this point. Considering how colonization demographics tend to unfold, this could lead to a large population of people in Numenor who are of mixed ethnic descent, with a Numenorean parent (usually the father) and mother from one of the various peoples surrounding the colonial outposts.

Also, if this colonialist demographic shift is set sufficiently far enough in the past, and we presume the Numenoreans, despite being spectacularly corrupt are multiculturally tolerant (which actually, is something that Sauron would want since it would insert influences from cultures he controls into Numenor, so it's not as implausible as it sounds), then a fairly mixed Numenorean population, especially in major port cities, is not that unreasonable.

Now, one thing that it's important with this is that there shouldn't be just 'light' and 'dark' Numenoreans, but a complete range of skin tones reflecting every heritage, including mixed-blooded Numenoreans who trace their colonial ancestry to the more northerly populations in what would later be Gondor and Arnor.

[Sapphire Guard]

I suspect they just won't make them cousins to begin with.

[Aedilred]

Also, we know this is how Tolkien set up Middle-Earth. The part of the continent we see in his stories represents the Northwestern region of a much larger landmass, one that is approximately parallel with Europe-Africa-Asia in overall geographical structure. And the people native to the northern regions are paler than those found further south. The distribution of these peoples is perfectly sensible, their allegiance gets nasty and political and we can't discuss it, but who lives where makes sense biologically.

Yes: "the Middle-Earth that we see is Europe but a different shape" is the obvious and, I think, correct answer to questions about why there isn't more diversity in the populations of the people we see on screen. Not that pre-modern Europe was entirely non-diverse, but it was still orders of magnitude less diverse than modern America or modern (metropolitan) Europe and particularly so in the positions of power that we see on screen.

That answer seems to be being deliberately set aside in the interests of inclusivity of people who are European/American but of variegated ancestry. And while when it comes to movies that purport to be historical I think that is inherently problematic, in a fantasy setting (even one which is supposedly kinda-Earth-but-not-quite) I think that that's ok, or at least that more is gained from doing it than is lost. But it does still require some in-setting justification in order to fly.

[Berserk Mecha]

I suspect they just won't make them cousins to begin with.

I doubt they're going to shy away from incest. Especially not when the rival 'House of the Dragon' show is going to have a huge inbred family. Seems to be something that we've become desensitized to...

[Mechalich]

That answer seems to be being deliberately set aside in the interests of inclusivity of people who are European/American but of variegated ancestry. And while when it comes to movies that purport to be historical I think that is inherently problematic, in a fantasy setting (even one which is supposedly kinda-Earth-but-not-quite) I think that that's ok, or at least that more is gained from doing it than is lost. But it does still require some in-setting justification in order to fly.

Modern multicultural populations are mostly due to a drastic increase in transportation technology. Something that we can see echoed historically in that the most multicultural regions like ancient Rome or Constantinople were positioned in on the Med, where geographic factors allowed people from distant lands to interact at disproportionately high levels. Given this, one potential justification for increased multicultural presentation in Numenor is positing that the Numenoreans (and to a lesser degree the Elves) have some kind of fantastical sailing tech that makes their ships faster, safer, and bigger than they have any historical business being (which, given the similar attributes Tolkien gave them in land-based construction is actually very reasonable) that allowed them to maintain a Victorian Era style globe-spanning Empire otherwise out of line with the tech level.

I doubt they're going to shy away from incest. Especially not when the rival 'House of the Dragon' show is going to have a huge inbred family. Seems to be something that we've become desensitized to...

Unlike sibling marriage, which is almost universally proscribed, first cousin marriage is subject to varying viewpoints and is legal in most nations. Critically, when considering a Tolkien work, it is legal in the UK and was historically fairly common, especially among landed nobility and royal houses. Nothing in the dynastic history of Numenor suggests Ar-Pharazon marrying his cousin would have been the least bit controversial to the people, whereas the act of forcing her into the marriage, and usurping her right to the throne absolutely were.

[Vinyadan]

If Miriel's mother is a native Numenorian, or indeed if Numenorians do have a visually diverse population, this raises the question of why there are distinct population of light and dark-skinned Numenorians (as opposed to Black Numenorians, to be clear) so long after we would normally expect such differences to have been erased. That is something one would expect to have a plot explanation, because apart from anything else it suggests things about the shape of Numenorian society and politics.

I don't think we should expect such differences to have been erased. If you have, let's say, one million black settlers in Forostar and one million white settlers in Orrostar, you shouldn't expect the two groups to completely melt into each other. It's just a matter of geography and the limits on movement we find in a preindustrial civilization, especially since Numenor seemed like a very rich country with little need for inner migrations. To make a real world example, Rome did create cultural unity over wide territories, but never caused the populations of the Empire (or even just Italy) to become physycally homogeneous, and, even if it had lasted 3,000 years, it probably still wouldn't have happened without massive progress. This in spite of colonies, forced resettlement, and slavery. Italy is actually a fairly good example of an area where populations with remarkably different phenotypes have existed side-by-side for as long as we can track, in spite of recurring political and cultural unity.

There's also another matter: let's assume that all black and white settler blend together. Would such a population actually look homogeneous, or would it instead have people that look very different from each other even within the same family? Tolkien does something similar with Boromir, who is quite different from his father and brother. ("He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.")

Also, from letter 230:

With regard to Aragorn's boast, I think he was reckoning his ancestry through the paternal line
for this purpose; but in any case I imagine that Númenóreans, before their knowledge dwindled,
knew more about heredity than other people. To this of course they refer by the common symbol of
blood. They recognized the fact that in spite of intermarriages, some characteristics would appear in
pure form in later generations. Aragorn's own longevity was a case in point. Gandalf I think refers
to the curious fact that even in the much less well preserved house of the stewards Denethor had
come out as almost purely Númenórean.

Of course, coming back to Miriel, it's not that simple, both because of in-world reasons (that tiny portion of Middle Earth we see is located at the height of Europe, with Pelargir at Troy's latitude and Imladris at Oxford's, and the few black people that do show up get a description that to me shows what a rare sight they were to the Rohirrim: "out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues"; plus Tolkien uses "swarthy" in opposition to Numenoreans when discussing peoples within Gondor) and because of real-world reasons (royals tend to be furiously inbred, building a separate community that crosses the borders of the countries they singularly happen to rule, or, if they are forced to pick from within one people, they can end up creating a clan within it that is completely separate from local society).

Anyway, Miriel's father was Tar-Palantir, the last wise king in Numenor and the first Elf-Friend in charge in centuries. So it wouldn't be too odd, if he acted differently from other kings.

Interestingly, there is one man who could pass for a King Regent in Numenorean history, Tar-Anducal. First he married a reigning queen, Tar-Vanimelde, and ruled instead of her, because she had no interest in politics, then, after she died, he openly usurped the throne from his own son and ruled for 20 years, until he died.

[Berserk Mecha]

Unlike sibling marriage, which is almost universally proscribed, first cousin marriage is subject to varying viewpoints and is legal in most nations. Critically, when considering a Tolkien work, it is legal in the UK and was historically fairly common, especially among landed nobility and royal houses. Nothing in the dynastic history of Numenor suggests Ar-Pharazon marrying his cousin would have been the least bit controversial to the people, whereas the act of forcing her into the marriage, and usurping her right to the throne absolutely were.

Ehh... I dunno. Sure, cousin marriage was not unheard of among real-life nobility, but Numenorian nobility is not real-life nobility. Tolkien was fairly conservative but I doubt that he was cool with kissing cousins. The other example that I can think of in the legindarium of one cousin having eyes for another is Maeglin lusting for Idril. And Maeglin was a bit of a sociopath. And even if cousin marriage was respectable among the Numenorians, that does not mean that the readers are supposed to think that the marriage was healthy. Incest is certainly a lesser sin than forcing Miriel to marry him, but it is supposed to be seen as another sin on Ar-Pharazon's long list.

[Aedilred]

Ehh... I dunno. Sure, cousin marriage was not unheard of among real-life nobility, but Numenorian nobility is not real-life nobility. Tolkien was fairly conservative but I doubt that he was cool with kissing cousins. The other example that I can think of in the legindarium of one cousin having eyes for another is Maeglin lusting for Idril. And Maeglin was a bit of a sociopath. And even if cousin marriage was respectable among the Numenorians, that does not mean that the readers are supposed to think that the marriage was healthy. Incest is certainly a lesser sin than forcing Miriel to marry him, but it is supposed to be seen as another sin on Ar-Pharazon's long list.

As Mechalich indicates, I don't see any reason why Tolkien wouldn't have been fine with cousins marrying each other or see any reason why he would take particular issue with it or would expect his readers to. In the early 20th century, in Britain, even if marrying your cousin was falling out of fashion it wasn't something that would have raised any eyebrows as improper. It is a common feature in the 19th-century literature which would have reflected and informed contemporary morals. Queen Victoria (still on the throne when Tolkien was born) married her cousin; so did George V, who was king when Tolkien was doing a lot of his world-building, and so did Elizabeth II for that matter, who was queen when the Silmarillion was published and indeed still is.

I think it may be a transatlantic culture divide: cousin-squick is just much less of a thing on this side of the pond generally than in the US: indeed, it's hardly a thing here at all, and I think has actually increased over time thanks to American cultural pervasiveness. Nobody would call it "incestuous", except perhaps in jest*. And particularly when it comes to the aristocracy and royalty, we might occasionally make fun of them for being inbred, but it's also just, you know, a thing that's taken for granted. In a fantasy world with an explicitly European basis, it is a feature that would be more remarkable by its absence than its presence.

It wasn't unique to the upper classes either, mind. Even well into the industrial revolution, rural people tended to remain fairly sedentary, which meant that a significant proportion of marriageable people within convenient geographic range would be related to you. It's only in the big urban melting-pots that you can really afford to be too fussy.


*Incidentally, while first-cousin breeding (and particularly repeated close-relative breeding a la the Spanish Habsburgs), generally isn't good genetically, there are suggestions that cousin-breeding is more genetically advantageous than between two unrelated parents.

[Zekestone]

Unlike sibling marriage, which is almost universally proscribed, first cousin marriage is subject to varying viewpoints and is legal in most nations. Critically, when considering a Tolkien work, it is legal in the UK and was historically fairly common, especially among landed nobility and royal houses. Nothing in the dynastic history of Numenor suggests Ar-Pharazon marrying his cousin would have been the least bit controversial to the people, whereas the act of forcing her into the marriage, and usurping her right to the throne absolutely were.

The Silmarillion specifically says that it was illegal - the laws of Numenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree.

[Saintheart]

First cousins, no. Hobbits, however, marry second, third, and fourth cousins a lot, as a look at the family trees reveals.

Frodo's parents, Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck----great-grandchildren of Gundahar Bolger and Dina Diggle, Drogo through their son Adalgar (his maternal grandfather), Primula through their daughter Adaldrida (her paternal grandmother).

Merry's parents, Saradoc Brandybuck and Esmeralda Took---great-grandchildren of Gerontius the Old Took and Chica Chubb, Saradoc through their daughter Mirabella (his paternal grandmother), Esmeralda through their son Hildigrim ((her paternal grandfather).

Lotho Sackville-Baggins and Lobelia Bracegirdle----great-grandchildren of Mr and Mrs Grubb, whoever they were... Lotho through their daughter Laura (his paternal grandmother), Lobelia through their daughter Lavender (her maternal grandmother).

Fatty and Estella's parents, Odovacar Bolger and Rosamunda Took----great-grandchildren of Gerontius the Old Took and Chica Chubb, Odovacar through their daughter Donnamira (his maternal grandmother), Rosamunda through their son Hildibrand (her paternal grandfather).

Merry and his wife Estella are third cousins (great-great-grandchildren of the Old Took).

[Aedilred]

The Silmarillion specifically says that it was illegal - the laws of Numenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree.

Not the Silmarillion, surely, since that finishes at the end of the First Age?

I've had a quick scout around based on what I could recall for other instances of cousins marrying in the legendarium. Most of the time, Tolkien doesn't record the names of king's wives, but when he does among the Numenoreans they are usually cousins in some degree. The clearest-cut instance anywhere is probably Nimloth and Dior, who are second cousins. Elrond and Celebrian were cousins a couple of times over as he's related to both her parents (through both of his). Aragorn and Arwen are of course first cousins, albeit many times removed (the foster-siblings thing is more of an issue, one would have thought!)

[Mechalich]

The Silmarillion specifically says that it was illegal - the laws of Numenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree.

Huh, surprising. I wonder why Tolkien made that choice. I suppose, given that the initial Numenorean gene pool was comprised of survivors of the War of Wrath and might well have been tiny - Tolkien was generally fairly cagey about numbers (a wise trait in a fantasy author) but the number might have been only triple digits - that more restrictive than normal laws to prevent inbreeding would be necessary.

[MinimanMidget]

After having seen Ender's Game and Ready Player One in theater, I can confirm that sometimes change to fit the medium better is required. Let's see how it plays out.

Are you really citing those two movies as examples of movies that successfully made changes to the books to fit the medium? Because Ender's Game would be a great example of...not that. Kind of the opposite of that. They repeat "the enemy's gate is down" like a mantra, but not only is the room almost always shown with a fixed perspective, it's a horizontal plane where the enemy's gate is not, in fact, down. They completely missed the point of the line they were parroting, and they missed a great opportunity to make full use of the medium of a movie as opposed to a book.

As for Ready Player One, my personal opinion is that it's a thoroughly mediocre movie, and that it's hard to think of a book more suited to being made into a movie and less in need of changes for the medium, but that's purely my opinion.

[InvisibleBison]

Not the Silmarillion, surely, since that finishes at the end of the First Age?

That quote is from the Akallabeth, which was published in the book titled The Silmarillion even though it's not part of the Quenta Silmarillion proper.

[GloatingSwine]

As for Ready Player One, my personal opinion is that it's a thoroughly mediocre movie, and that it's hard to think of a book more suited to being made into a movie and less in need of changes for the medium, but that's purely my opinion.

Presumably 50% of the putative "faithful" RP1 movie would be someone reciting lists.

(It *is* of course a thoroughly mediocre movie. It's also a thoroughly mediocre book though.)

[Kornaki]

Are you really citing those two movies as examples of movies that successfully made changes to the books to fit the medium?

No. We agree Ender's Game is terrible.
The reason (imo) is because they tried to faithfully put every scene from the book into themovie without thinking about is. Anytime someone is like 'but they didn't go scene for scene from my favorite book' I remember this movie.

As for Ready Player One, my personal opinion is that it's a thoroughly mediocre movie, and that it's hard to think of a book more suited to being made into a movie and less in need of changes for the medium, but that's purely my opinion.

I contend if they had just copied everything from the book, it would have bombed There was way too much stuff going on, and it was way too esoteric. Remember, something like 10x as many people saw the movie theaters as read the book, and you don't have the luxury in theater to look up stuff you didn't get.

[GloatingSwine]

and you don't have the luxury in theater to look up stuff you didn't get.

If you had to look things up you're a fake fan anyway. (I mean that's the whole theme of RP1...)

[MinimanMidget]

No. We agree Ender's Game is terrible.
The reason (imo) is because they tried to faithfully put every scene from the book into themovie without thinking about is. Anytime someone is like 'but they didn't go scene for scene from my favorite book' I remember this movie.

I contend if they had just copied everything from the book, it would have bombed There was way too much stuff going on, and it was way too esoteric. Remember, something like 10x as many people saw the movie theaters as read the book, and you don't have the luxury in theater to look up stuff you didn't get.

Ah, ok. That makes a lot more sense. I can certainly see what you mean with RP1, too, even if I don't completely agree. It probably would've worked better as a TV series, thinking about it.

[Vinyadan]

I think the RP1 movie was good. It really was about escape from reality in its many forms (gambling being there), with an interesting and passably solid setting, mixed with a search for the Grail plot. Plus Spielberg has had a long-time interest in videogames, as both writer and player, and I think it shows in handling themes like farming. And the Shining scenes were also a meditation on transmediality and how a new public may approach a great classic.

Actually, it's been a while, but I think that there's a lot in it to unpack.

[GloatingSwine]

Actually, it's been a while, but I think that there's a lot in it to unpack.

Oh yes.

You could start with how a movie where the main consequence represented by the villains being corporate interest not respecting original creative vision climaxes by unashamedly and gleefully presenting the Iron Giant as a weapon...

[Vinyadan]

You could start with how a movie where the main consequence represented by the villains being corporate interest not respecting original creative vision climaxes by unashamedly and gleefully presenting the Iron Giant as a weapon...

Keep in mind that it is set in a video game. Excessive simplification is pretty typical for the gaming environment, simply because there often isn't enough room to show all a character really is. Take Boromir in Battle for Middle Earth, he's just a guy with a sword.
And then you have players and modders, and perversion of character and misappropriation become the standard

[GloatingSwine]

Keep in mind that it is set in a video game. Excessive simplification is pretty typical for the gaming environment, simply because there often isn't enough room to show all a character really is. Take Boromir in Battle for Middle Earth, he's just a guy with a sword.
And then you have players and modders, and perversion of character and misappropriation become the standard

A Thermian argument doesn't "unpack" anything though.

RP1 the movie is corporate gunge, RP1 the book is gatekeepy fanboy gunge.

[Vinyadan]

A Thermian argument doesn't "unpack" anything though.

RP1 the movie is corporate gunge, RP1 the book is gatekeepy fanboy gunge.

I'd like to continue this conversation, but I didn't understand anything you just wrote.

[GloatingSwine]

I'd like to continue this conversation, but I didn't understand anything you just wrote.

A Thermian Argument (from Galaxy Quest) is when you respond to real world critique about a work of fiction using the internal logic of the fiction.

The setting of Ready Player One does not matter, it does not exist. A real person in the real world decided which of their copyrights to use and how in the movie. They did so in a manner which, ironically, is exactly the thing the villains of their own movie are doing which is so terribly bad.

The movie exists for Warner Bros to shill properties it owns at you.

The book exists to validate the sort of fan who thinks there's such a thing as a "real" fan of things.

[Vinyadan]

?

If you are critiquing the content of a work of fiction, you can't ignore the content of a work of fiction. You can say "even accounting for the setting of the movie, the dissonance was excessive, as it evidenced WB in its role of big corporation etc", but you have to recognise it somehow.

[GloatingSwine]

?

If you are critiquing the content of a work of fiction, you can't ignore the content of a work of fiction. You can say "even accounting for the setting of the movie, the dissonance was excessive, as it evidenced WB in its role of big corporation etc", but you have to recognise it somehow.

The people making it do not live inside the world of it, the nature of that world cannot be used as a justification for their decisions. The world of the movie didn't reach out and control the minds of the WB executives and make them act like they were in charge of IOI. They're just like that because they don't know other way to be, and it makes for a delicious irony when they release something critiquing the very thing they are doing as part of the process of making it without a shred of self awareness.

[Sapphire Guard]

They know exactly what they're doing, they just don't care. Anti- corporate narratives make corps a lot of money.