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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    They know exactly what they're doing, they just don't care. Anti- corporate narratives make corps a lot of money.
    Can you extrapolate?
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    As a lifelong reader of Tolkien and lover of Middle Earth, I am much more concerned with what story they choose to tell and how they tell it, and not at all with the skin tone or genetic features of the actors. I don't think there is any good reason for people to be upset about that. As a kid, I loved Bakshi's film- it did not bother me one tiny bit that Aragorn had darker skin and looked somewhat Native American (or Mediterranean?)- in fact, I barely registered it. It is about how he acted- John Hurt's performance was great (is he never not?), whatever many flaws are in that film. He was Aragorn from the book.

    So let's see how this show is actually written and the story they choose to tell before we decide that it can't possibly be representative of Tolkien's work. Not that I have particularly high hopes, but we still don't know. Naturally, there will and should be more active roles for women in this story, particularly Galadriel, and I think that's fine. Tolkien's writing and people's enjoyment of it are not going to disappear. This is just looking at it through a new gem-facet. Honestly, living myths and stories do change with each generation's retelling. They incorporate anachronistic elements that reflect the time and society of the tellers, despite being set in a remote past. As a historian, you study and preserve what is written to understand the world of the writers, and want depictions to represent what was. But as a story teller, you must help relate the story to the world of the audience- myths are not history, they are stories. The show will be telling a tale from Middle Earth intended for today's audience. Don't see it as a historical documentary depicting myths of Middle Earth as they might have been told by the people of the Fourth Age (who, we must remember, never really existed), or even by the people of Tolkien's own early 20th century society. That telling is preserved in the writing itself.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Can you extrapolate?
    I think he's referring to themes and subtext (or in some cases it's just plain text) present in other Amazon shows centered around corporate villainy, like The Boys and The Expanse. There's a bit of irony in one of the largest tech corporations on the planet (FAANG!) enthusiastically greenlighting shows whose underdog protagonists are fighting against corporate greed, a cause we implicitly support by paying to watch.

    I'm having a bit more trouble drawing a line from that thought back to LotR though.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    yeah, it was about the ready player 1 stuff. From Matrix Resurrections to Cyberpunk to the new Resident Evil, giant corporations have no hesitation in selling anti corporation narratives, they sell, that's all that matters.

    Back to ROP, it's fairly clear that they don't feel bound to book lore, at least insofar as timelines go (and, to a lesser extent, family trees.) Those two things make up a good chunk of the appendices, so from here it's probably best to view this as an independent work and judge its merits or demerits from there.

    Whether the changes will work, we'll have to see.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    "Capitalism has the ability to subsume all criticism into itself. Even those who would critique capital end up reinforcing it instead."

    Being anti-establishment has been a hip, cool thing since at least the sixties, and you could buy anti-capitalist merch for about as long.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I think he's referring to themes and subtext (or in some cases it's just plain text) present in other Amazon shows centered around corporate villainy, like The Boys and The Expanse. There's a bit of irony in one of the largest tech corporations on the planet (FAANG!) enthusiastically greenlighting shows whose underdog protagonists are fighting against corporate greed, a cause we implicitly support by paying to watch.

    I'm having a bit more trouble drawing a line from that thought back to LotR though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    yeah, it was about the ready player 1 stuff. From Matrix Resurrections to Cyberpunk to the new Resident Evil, giant corporations have no hesitation in selling anti corporation narratives, they sell, that's all that matters.

    Back to ROP, it's fairly clear that they don't feel bound to book lore, at least insofar as timelines go (and, to a lesser extent, family trees.) Those two things make up a good chunk of the appendices, so from here it's probably best to view this as an independent work and judge its merits or demerits from there.

    Whether the changes will work, we'll have to see.
    Ahhh, gotcha. I thought it was about real-world narratives and was thinking "I'm like 90% sure my 'the Waltons have enough money' beliefs specifically do not help give them more money".

    Also, mention of The Boys makes me sad at how much I love that show and how very little we'd be able to discuss it on this forum.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-07-27 at 09:11 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ahhh, gotcha. I thought it was about real-world narratives and was thinking "I'm like 90% sure my 'the Waltons have enough money' beliefs specifically do not help give them more money".

    Also, mention of The Boys makes me sad at how much I love that show and how very little we'd be able to discuss it on this forum.
    Yeah every time I thought of making a Boys thread I was like "uhhhhh, nah"

    But hey, at least it's not the Boys comic
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah every time I thought of making a Boys thread I was like "uhhhhh, nah"

    But hey, at least it's not the Boys comic
    I am not a fan of Amazon as a company but I find myself watching Prime Video more than Netflix or Disney+. Between "The Boys", "Invincible", "The Expanse", and "Kids in the Hall" Amazon Prime seems less risk averse. It also has more movies I am interested in watching like old Bruce Lee films.

    I guess it comes down to which soulless corporate entity you are willing to get your entertainment from.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    I am not a fan of Amazon as a company but I find myself watching Prime Video more than Netflix or Disney+. Between "The Boys", "Invincible", "The Expanse", and "Kids in the Hall" Amazon Prime seems less risk averse. It also has more movies I am interested in watching like old Bruce Lee films.

    I guess it comes down to which soulless corporate entity you are willing to get your entertainment from.
    "Which?" I have all three This is a pretty good time to be into nerd culture I'd say. I also have Paramount+, WOW Presents, even Philo for the BBC stuff.

    The only one I have zero interest in is Apple TV.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah every time I thought of making a Boys thread I was like "uhhhhh, nah"
    Same. It usually fell apart when I tried to write the body of the text and had to stop somewhere around "So superheroes...."
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But hey, at least it's not the Boys comic
    Man, I just got the comics because I loved the series so much. Talk about culture shock. I think this series is the poster child for "the movie/show was better than the book".
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Which?" I have all three This is a pretty good time to be into nerd culture I'd say. I also have Paramount+, WOW Presents, even Philo for the BBC stuff.

    The only one I have zero interest in is Apple TV.
    I can't get Philo, sadly. Not for lakc of trying. It's supposed to have a massive library for the original Law and Orderf.

    Feel the same way about Apple TV.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-07-27 at 10:55 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Don't have Amazon Prime and have no plans to get it, so like with WOT, post release I'll just be watching from here.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Man, I just got the comics because I loved the series so much. Talk about culture shock. I think this series is the poster child for "the movie/show was better than the book".
    Garth Ennis is on record as absolutely despising superhero comics. The Boys (comic) was his massively cynical takedown of the entire industry, with gallons of excessively edgelord sensibility ladled on top for good measure.

    Amazon smartly kept the core of that while trimming a lot of the fat. It's part of the reason I was (and remain) so optimistic for their Wheel of Time adaptation, especially now that a lot of the COVID headaches are done with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I can't get Philo, sadly. Not for lack of trying. It's supposed to have a massive library for the original Law and Order.
    Aren't those on Peacock too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Feel the same way about Apple TV.
    If they get a few more killer apps they might change my mind. Mythic Quest came VERY close (Always Sunny in Philadelphia meets The Office meets World of Warcraft sounds like an amazing pitch) but I just can't justify a whole subscription for one show.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    I just thought that, if Arwen pops up, Kaya Scotelario could be a good substitute for Liv Tyler.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Garth Ennis is on record as absolutely despising superhero comics. The Boys (comic) was his massively cynical takedown of the entire industry, with gallons of excessively edgelord sensibility ladled on top for good measure.
    Oh, I've noticed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Amazon smartly kept the core of that while trimming a lot of the fat.
    On top of adding in a good bit more allegory. Even if it's about as subtle as a freight train, it's still hugely enjoyable. Though with all the people I see ranting about season 3's finale, I think maybe the seasons theme was too subtle for many?
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Aren't those on Peacock too?
    Not seasons 3-12, which are what I'm missing at the moment. Logan/Briscoe/Schiff and Briscoe/McCoy/Schiff are some of the best of Law and Order. Plus Jamie Ross and Abbie Carmichael were fantastic ADAs. I'm missing all of those seasons.

    On the bright side, I don't have Detective Curtis mucking up any episodes I have available, but still. The tradeoff is more than worth putting up with him.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-07-27 at 01:41 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I just thought that, if Arwen pops up, Kaya Scotelario could be a good substitute for Liv Tyler.
    It depends on how old the Arwen is. According to Tolkien, she was born in 241 of the Third Age, after all of the Second Age events we expect to see. If Amazon really warps time, we could see her as an infant. Or we could have a frame story, starting in the Fourth Age.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    It depends on how old the Arwen is. According to Tolkien, she was born in 241 of the Third Age, after all of the Second Age events we expect to see. If Amazon really warps time, we could see her as an infant. Or we could have a frame story, starting in the Fourth Age.
    Time warping is one issue, but unless I missed something, we haven't even seen a hint of Celeborn...
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    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    There is a lot of rumours he is either dead or just not in the show and that Galadriel gets it on with another character.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Eh, rumours.

    The absence is certainly notable, though.

    Weird how little we know, given how close we are to release. There's been a remarkable number of mishaps in the marketing so far, and we're almost there.
    Last edited by Sapphire Guard; 2022-07-29 at 07:17 PM.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    I'm trying to remember what role Celeborn actually has and I'm coming up with nothing. Aside from governing Lothlorian, isn't he just kind of there next to Galadriel?

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Weird how little we know, given how close we are to release.
    Two possibilities:

    (1) It's a legit good show and the showrunners really want to keep the whole thing under wraps as long as possible; or

    (2) It's a show made with choices to make Tolkien fans, let alone Jackson fans, claw their own eyes out - but seeing as there's no more time to fix it and no more money to fix it, they're hoping to get enough silly people to watch it on opening day and then weather the screaming outrage, because it (a) gets more views and (b) they'll have already made their money by then. You know, the way most streaming shows are presented to audiences these days.

    I can hope for a timeline where it's item (1), i.e. Reacher, but the preponderance of stuff flowing down the World's Longest River of Sewage tells me it's item (2).

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk Mecha View Post
    I'm trying to remember what role Celeborn actually has and I'm coming up with nothing. Aside from governing Lothlorian, isn't he just kind of there next to Galadriel?
    Celeborn does a couple of important things:
    • As possibly the most important of the Sindar in Middle-Earth at this time, he acknowledges the suzerainty of High King Gil-Galad. This is hugely politically important since it cements peace between the Noldor and Sindar throughout the Second Age (and arguably the Third Age as well).
    • He led armies under Celebrimbor during the Sack of Eregion, and may have been the first elven commander to join battle in the overall war.
    • After Eregion fell, he led the survivors out of the realm and north to link up with Elrond, alongside he presumably continued to fight during the several years they were besieged in what would become Rivendell.
    • Galadriel came looking for him at the end of the war, and brought their daughter Celebrian with them when she did so. The family reunited at Rivendell and Celebrian met Elrond for the first time - a critical event since the two eventually married.


    Canonically, Celeborn and Galadriel are spending time apart immediately prior to the forging of the rings of power because Celeborn is prejudiced against the dwarves and doesn't want to travel through Moria to visit Galadriel (or Celebrian, who is herself ~1000 years old by this point and residing with her mother's side of the family) in Lorian, so he remained in Eregion. That means he's one of the most important nobles in the court of Celebrimbor, which means he ought to be in the show even if there's no plans to have him actually say anything in Season One. Possibly he is, the Comic-Con trailer shows a shot of Celebrimbor dining with a bunch of dignitaries, which indicates at least some time will be spent in the court of Eregion.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Hmm... I'm thinking that I should re-read Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. ...Maybe the appendices for LotR, too.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk Mecha View Post
    Hmm... I'm thinking that I should re-read Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. ...Maybe the appendices for LotR, too.
    I was admittedly work off of the wikis. A lot of the information about the Second Age is scattered across a huge variety of sources, and is occasionally contradictory. This is in some ways good for Amazon because it provides flexibility with regards to things like locations and specific events. However, Tolkien tracked lineages very carefully, which means the question of who is related to who, and what that implies is answered more thoroughly than any other topic regarding the Second Age.

    For instance, we can infer that Celeborn is extremely important among the Sindar because he's close kin to Thingol, being his grand-nephew by way of his younger brother Elmo (in the most detailed version of his backstory) and by the Second Age everyone else in that lineage is either dead or presumably gone into the west, therefore Celeborn stands alone as the closest remaining king of the all-important king of the Sindar. Which means he'd be important even if he never did anything of consequence himself.

    In any case, I feel any intent to leave Celeborn out to somehow 'free up' Galadriel for romantic subplots is blatantly misguided and also totally unnecessary since Galadriel's own daughter Celebrian is around, single (she doesn't marry Elrond until >1800 years after first meeting him, which must be some kind of record), and completely unburdened by a cumbersome backstory, making her perfect to carry that aspect of the plot. She is the rare female character in Tolkien with a perfect opportunity for dramatic expansion into a fuller role. But if they cut Celeborn out there's no good way to include her.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    In any case, I feel any intent to leave Celeborn out to somehow 'free up' Galadriel for romantic subplots is blatantly misguided and also totally unnecessary since Galadriel's own daughter Celebrian is around, single (she doesn't marry Elrond until >1800 years after first meeting him, which must be some kind of record), and completely unburdened by a cumbersome backstory, making her perfect to carry that aspect of the plot. She is the rare female character in Tolkien with a perfect opportunity for dramatic expansion into a fuller role. But if they cut Celeborn out there's no good way to include her.
    That's a great idea, I'd love if they did that (not a lot of hope for that). I'd love to see the love story of Celebrian and Elrond (in a compressed timeline lol). Maybe if they mess with the timeline a bit, it would be interesting to see Elrond's behavior and personality change following her tragic end. Or maybe they'll do a season 2 "The House of Elrond", where we get that whole story, and maybe see Elladan and Elrohir, too, and Elrond and Celebrian raising their children, fostering the Rangers of the North, and young Aragorn meeting Arwen for the first time? Not sure I'd want them to get that close to LotR timeline, but still...

    Immortal beings would understandably take their time in the courting process, I suppose...no need to rush into marriage when nobody's going anywhere, and vowing to be exclusive to one person for eternity, literally, is a pretty big vow. lol
    Obviously, Tolkien was Catholic, and his fiction is nothing but courtly love, but we know Elves spend a lot of their time relaxing, partying, drinking, and singing...I can imagine there's other stuff that goes on, too, it'd be a big ask to settle down, I'd think. lol

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    The idea that you need to 'free up' a female lead for a romance subplot in itself is problematic, though. Having her be in a long distance committed relationship is probably the most revolutionary thing they could do.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The idea that you need to 'free up' a female lead for a romance subplot in itself is problematic, though.
    I'd have used the word "stupid" instead of "problematic," but yeah, agreed.

    Especially since there's a much easier solution if they really want a romance subplot for Galadriel specifically (which they shouldn't, but still): just have her not have gotten together with Celeborn yet. Sure, it's a huge stretch from the canon, given they actually married in the First Age, but it's much less of one, and much less likely to piss off a lot of fans of the source material, than ignoring Celeborn entirely and having Galadriel have a romance subplot with someone else.

    Though of course, this is all speculative at this point. Hopefully they're just not doing the latter at all, whatever they're doing, and that rumor is just so much internet nonsense.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Last edited by Divayth Fyr; 2022-08-03 at 03:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Well, stupid fight scenes are a way to dampen my excitement.
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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
    Looks like Galadriel will outperform Legolas.
    I now have zero interest in watching this. Turning Galadriel into Taurolas is just idiotic.

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    Default Re: LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

    Eh, it just seems like regular elf wuxia to me. I don't find it particularly offensive.

    (Hell, it might be good if this gets popular, we'll have more DMs willing to just let martials do this kind of stuff with a skill check.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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