Who will live, who will die?

[Fyraltari]

How is death exactly a punishment, especially for a favored(?) high priest? They get to join their god. This is actually pretty common in D&D, e.g. drow High Priestesses get to become handmaidens of Lolth.

Complete oblivion by getting tangled, sure, but death, pfft.

Right-Eye stares at him for a couple thousand years?

[Metastachydium]

I guess we'll see.

True enough!

Right-Eye stares at him for a couple thousand years?

Last I checked, Redcloak was the Evil one.

[Fyraltari]

Last I checked, Redcloak was the Evil one.

I don't see your point?

[hungrycrow]

I don't see your point?

Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

[Fyraltari]

Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

Meh, if he doesn't wanna stay, a few mirrors will do the trick.

[Metastachydium]

I don't see your point?

Staring at Right-Eye forever might be a fitting punishment for Redcloak, but Right-Eye having to stare at Redcloak forever would be unfair.

That, and I also don't really see Right-Eye purposely torturing Redcloak for millenia.

a few mirrors will do the trick.

Now, that is both vicious and incredibly appropriate.

[Dame_Mechanus]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

I had been operating on old statements in which the Giant had indicated that V had a distinct gender but it was ambiguous, and pronouns such as "he" or "she" could both be used for V and said more about the person speaking than about V's actual gender. More recent answers indicate that the Giant's thinking on this has shifted and "they" would be a more appropriate pronoun to use. Mea culpa.

For Xykon, I think there's a bigger chance that he'll survive but be imprisoned forever in some way - for example, if his phylactery ends up somewhere where it's safe but Xykon is automatically destroyed as soon as he regenerates. I'd put that at about 5-10%. Chances of Xykon just walking away are close to 0% in my opinion.

That's basically where my figure comes from, yeah. It's still not a great ending, though; the blood oath remains unfulfilled if he's locked in a forever-destroyed loop, so there would have to be a whole lot of narrative juggling to make it work, even more than needed to get us to the point where the Godsmoot is technically still ongoing but a solved problem from the Order's perspective. So, you know... maybe, but unlikely in the extreme.

As Hilgya points out, most deaths are just 10 minutes cleric spell away, and as we have seen, to Durkon and Minrah death just means a chance to start chugging down beer in Valhalla.

Hence why I specifically opened by stating that for the purposes of this thread, "dying" is assumed to imply "and not coming back." Could I imagine an ending where Roy got popped by Xykon as he destroyed the lich, said a few last words to his father, and got resurrected by Durkon almost immediately? Easily. But that's not really what my predictions are based around. We're talking final death, not just "hit -10 HP."

I'm also vehemently opposed to the idea that O-Chul must die to motivate the Monster. He did plenty of that already through not dying and being there for the Monster. (Further, we're talking about O-Chul. If anyone thinks stuffing him into the fridge has any chance to do him lasting harm, they should know that they are wrong and they should feel wrong.)

Hey, I didn't say he must! Just that it seems within the realm of plausibility. "Not expected but not shocking," in other words.

What do you think is required for a happy ending from Elan's perspective, other than defeating the bad guys and dying heroically, and going on to personal happiness?

Well, most of the people he cares about living, for starters. Elan is not a "make a heroic sacrifice to save someone's life" sort; that's Durkon and Roy and O-Chul and Lien. These are the people who occupy the "fight a good fight and die honorably" space in the narrative. Elan occupies the "and now you get a cake and a parade because you're a hero!" space in the narrative. And while I can certainly see Elan accepting a bittersweet ending if he needed to... again, he gets a happy ending.

That doesn't mean he's going to be perfectly happy with everything - even the happy ending he envision in Girard's pyramid involve all of the loss and heartache he'd experienced up to that point, and he would definitely prefer if Nale hadn't been murdered by their father, for one thing. But there's not just one possible happy ending, and he gets one that he would consider a happy ending.

[Edreyn]

If Redcloak will fail Dark One, he will still end up in his realm, but I doubt it will be a nice stay. That's what actually happens to the majority of Lloth worshipers.

[pearl jam]

I had been operating on old statements in which the Giant had indicated that V had a distinct gender but it was ambiguous, and pronouns such as "he" or "she" could both be used for V and said more about the person speaking than about V's actual gender. More recent answers indicate that the Giant's thinking on this has shifted and "they" would be a more appropriate pronoun to use. Mea culpa.

I'd forgotten that the official status had changed as well. Easy enough to do since it's not directly addressed on panel.

[ZhonLord]

If Redcloak will fail Dark One, he will still end up in his realm, but I doubt it will be a nice stay. That's what actually happens to the majority of Lloth worshipers.

To quote Jirix: "Because I don't know about any of you, but I don't intend of getting back to that great army and being stuck on latrine duty!"

If it's the souls of every Dark One worshipper who's died since his ascension to godhood, that's a pretty big latrine to be cleaning for all eternity....

[Provengreil]

I'd forgotten that the official status had changed as well. Easy enough to do since it's not directly addressed on panel.

in fairness, the comic itself has gone long enough that society itself has experienced a shift in these matters.

Unrelated, slot me in team: redcloak won't enjoy dying if he doesn't pull of The Plan first. An evil deity believing he's lost his only chance at equality would not a kind overlord make, I think.

[Bovine Colonel]

I think Oona's chances for survival have dropped dramatically with the most recent comic. When the dolphins eventually eat the bridge, Oona and Redcloak will end up on opposite sides of the river.

[ZhonLord]

I think Oona's chances for survival have dropped dramatically with the most recent comic. When the dolphins eventually eat the bridge, Oona and Redcloak will end up on opposite sides of the river.

I think Oona's planning on going down with the bridge, personally. Fighting to keep it intact until the very last possible second.

[Ruck]

V is non-binary, and usually referred to by the pronoun "they", I think.

As I understand it, it's not really that V is non-binary like we might conceive of it, but that elves' concept of gender seems to be that it is essentially irrelevant. I don't think V has preferred pronouns and will respond to essentially any/all intended to address them. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall the Giant saying something in a recent Q&A to the effect that even though he described V as genderqueer in a book commentary, V wouldn't use that term because elves just don't think about or talk about gender in the way humans do. I could be wrong, though. (I still generally use "they" for Vaarsuvius, as their gender seems to not fall into the typical binary with a preference for being addressed as he or she.)

I am somewhat more confident that "this story will have a happy ending... for Elan, at least" does not involve Elan dying.

I think V is the only Order member besides Belkar with a shot of dying, although I lean more toward some other fate that involves them setting off on a redemptive quest.

50/50 sounds about right for Redcloak.

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

[Fyraltari]

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

Also, even if Eugene spending eternity on that cloud could be seen as a fitting fate. Julia, Roy and their hypothetical future respective descendants don't deserve it.

[brian 333]

If/when the world is unmade by the gods or destroyed by The Snarl, Eugene's blood oath will be concluded, so it's not forever. Ironically, if Roy wins and Xykon remains alive, Eugene may get stuck there for a lot longer than if Roy fails.

As for Roy, Julia, and the rest of Eugene's descendants, the Deva already let Roy through the gate. Trying is enough. Julia is setting up for a Neutral afterlife, and I can't see those guys taking the blood oath more seriously than Celestia. I cannot imagine any hypothetical children they may have being judged by harsher standards.

Eugene screwed himself. He set things up so his children had to be responsible for his oath. As long as the Lawful ones give a good faith effort to trying to fulfill the oath, they should be okay. Eugene only screwed up their lives, not their afterlives.

[Fyraltari]

As for Roy, Julia, and the rest of Eugene's descendants, the Deva already let Roy through the gate. Trying is enough. Julia is setting up for a Neutral afterlife, and I can't see those guys taking the blood oath more seriously than Celestia. I cannot imagine any hypothetical children they may have being judged by harsher standards.

Eugene screwed himself. He set things up so his children had to be responsible for his oath. As long as the Lawful ones give a good faith effort to trying to fulfill the oath, they should be okay. Eugene only screwed up their lives, not their afterlives.

Yes, so as long as Xykon remains undead, Roy, his decendants and Julia's descendants* have to try to destroy him if they want to go to Celestia.

So a situation where Xykon is somehow not destroyed but trapped for eternity, as was proposed earlier would leave them out.


*I am granting Julia's "free pass" into the TN afterlife even if I'm not convinced.

[H_H_F_F]

I agree that Oona just got way more likely to be a goner. Far from being a sure thing, but far more likely than previously estimated.

[hroþila]

Yes, so as long as Xykon remains undead, Roy, his decendants and Julia's descendants* have to try to destroy him if they want to go to Celestia.

So a situation where Xykon is somehow not destroyed but trapped for eternity, as was proposed earlier would leave them out.


*I am granting Julia's "free pass" into the TN afterlife even if I'm not convinced.

That depends on whether the impossibility of actually fulfilling the oath would be taken into account - Eugene's descendents might be exempted if wherever Xykon ends up to is considered completely inaccessible to mortals or whatever. Kinda like the recurrent debate on what happens if a non-Greenhilt destroys Xykon.

[dancrilis]

And Xykon has to die so Eugene can get a full evaluation and learn his life was not nearly as Lawful Good as he'd like to believe.

Does he?

Spoiler: The text of the blood oath can be read in Start of Darkness

Show

I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that —AAAAH! What the hell?? —swear on the blood that—AAAH!— flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in—AAAH!—in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted— —GUH! Goddamn it!—enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the— gnnh!—sorcerer.

It does not mention that Xykon needs to be destroyed (or that Eugene's heirs would share his punishment).

Spoiler: SOD, something I just noticed

Show

Potentially interestingly the night Eugene met Sara it seems that Xykon was actually at the same pub, if she hadn't shown up they might have bumped into each other.

[lio45]

This is your opinion and I respect it, but know that I do not share it.

It's pretty much a given that Redcloak "will get punished" in the story, i.e. things won't go the way he wants. He doesn't "need" to die at all. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

Xykon, on the other hand, being very powerful, absolutely can't be left out there as a potential force (the way Tarquin was, for example) for the story to have a reasonable close, so we can be sure he'll get destroyed or neutralized in some manner.

[Ruck]

Does he?

Spoiler: The text of the blood oath can be read in Start of Darkness

Show

I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that —AAAAH! What the hell?? —swear on the blood that—AAAH!— flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in—AAAH!—in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted— —GUH! Goddamn it!—enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the— gnnh!—sorcerer.

It does not mention that Xykon needs to be destroyed (or that Eugene's heirs would share his punishment).

Well, the fact that you already cited something it didn't mention that turned out to be true undermines your own argument. You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

[Psyren]

Whatever evil Redcloak did, he did expose the greater injustice of the system itself. He's actually right when he said "you wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City." I don't think that's nearly enough to make up for what he's done, but I also think the comic hasn't spent enough time on acknowledging that fact, and we'll probably revisit it before the end.

[brian 333]

...You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

I do!

Lock him in the soul gem with Lirian and Dorukon!

Bind him as a Gate Guardian, able to act only in the defense of a gate. Preferably Lirian's.

Make him sit on a cloud with Eugene for a millennium or two.

Turn him to stone, then build a giant statue of Roy with his foot on Xykon's back. The big boot foot.

Make a flute out of his femur, give it to Elan, and make it audible to Xykon no matter where he is when Elan plays it. Then tell Elan that he is a master flautist.

Eliminate his spellcasting ability.

Drop a cave ceiling on him, not to destroy him, but to pin him in place, unable to cast any spell with somatic or material components.

[theangelJean]

My guess is it'll be like Narnia and end in weird unsatisfying allegory.

Likely.

I don't get where this idea comes from.

Allegory? Maybe. We have allegory in the story, but Mr. Burlew is also very much aware of the function and shape of a story, so I am guessing that he will prioritise the ending's function as "conclusion" over making it into an allegory of itself.

But unsatisfying? I get that there are a lot of critics here, but do people really find the comic to be unsatisfying, to the point where they expect the ending to be similarly so? Is the end of each strip unsatisfying? How about the ending of each book, or any of the subplots or side stories? I'd say a lot of Rich's skill is in making his stories into carefully-shaped chunks with a "point" to each segment and a definite ending. Which currently also leaves us wanting to know what happens next, but the story isn't finished yet.

And weird? No. Wacky, definitely. Niche, in the same way as the subject it started out parodying (which some nasty people probably do call "weird"). Slightly outside expectations, most probably - that's one of the best things about the comic. Delving into new situations which are a logical result of previously established parts of the story, sure. But sheer out-of-nowhere inconsistent type of weird, isn't a big part of this story.

Now Narnia, that was definitely all three.

[pearl jam]

Can someone point to an example of allegory in OOTS? Metaphor, of course. But allegory?

[hungrycrow]

Whatever evil Redcloak did, he did expose the greater injustice of the system itself. He's actually right when he said "you wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City." I don't think that's nearly enough to make up for what he's done, but I also think the comic hasn't spent enough time on acknowledging that fact, and we'll probably revisit it before the end.

It's true that they wouldn't be having be having peace negotiations if Redcloak hadn't first declared war, but Thor would have sent diplomats no matter what because of the whole color thing.

[Metastachydium]

Thor would have sent diplomats no matter what because of the whole color thing.

The first Bearer was a contemporary of the Scribblers, if I remember correctly. And then, despite the matter being kind of urgent, he waited for Durkon to die before initiating talks.

[Fyraltari]

The first Bearer was a contemporary of the Scribblers, if I remember correctly. And then, despite the matter being kind of urgent, he waited for Durkon to die before initiating talks.

None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.

[Metastachydium]

None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.

That may or may not be the case. (Yes, knowledge of the Gates' existence is not the same thing as knowledge of the Snarl being a thing, but given Thor's approach to these things, that's nothing that can't be worked around. I also wonder if Kraagor had family.)