Who will live, who will die?

[KorvinStarmast]

As I understand it, it's not really that V is non-binary like we might conceive of it, but that elves' concept of gender seems to be that it is essentially irrelevant.

That is roughly my take on it.

As to the oath: if there is a way to exact terrible vengeance on Xykon without destroying him, that would be interesting to see.

[Fyraltari]

That may or may not be the case. (Yes, knowledge of the Gates' existence is not the same thing as knowledge of the Snarl being a thing, but given Thor's approach to these things, that's nothing that can't be worked around. I also wonder if Kraagor had family.)

What do you mean, "may or may not be the case"? Of course the Scribblers knew about the Snarl and could be told about it. That doesn't mean that Thor could get in touch with them. The only one of them we know to be religious is Soon, and he worships the Twelve not Thor, so even if they got access to Commune (I don't think Paladins can cast that, but with a scroll, maybe?) or died they would most likely end up meeting the Twelve.

[Metastachydium]

What do you mean, "may or may not be the case"? Of course the Scribblers knew about the Snarl and could be told about it. That doesn't mean that Thor could get in touch with them. The only one of them we know to be religious is Soon, and he worships the Twelve not Thor, so even if they got access to Commune (I don't think Paladins can cast that, but with a scroll, maybe?) or died they would most likely end up meeting the Twelve.

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

[hungrycrow]

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

Okay, so the Scribblers and three dwarven contractors who probably aren't clerics of Thor either also knew about the gates and could have been told, if for some reason they ever contacted Thor somehow.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Okay, so the Scribblers and three dwarven contractors who probably aren't clerics of Thor either also knew about the gates and could have been told, if for some reason they ever contacted Thor somehow.

"Awright, Thor, we finished our initial survey of Valhalla. Got a lotta bad news for you. For one thing, you've got water damage on the supporting pillars, looks like they haven't been replaced in a long time. That'd be bad enough, but when was the last time you had someone examine these floorboards? Looks like a lot of liquid damage here, too; bet it's all the parties you throw in here. Your foundation is going to need to be redone, and that ain't cheap no matter how you slice it. Bottom line, yer lookin' at about half a million gold worth of work here, and that's if we do the bare minimum. Frankly I'd like to rip out a couple of walls and really redo things, but that's another quarter mil right there."

"Huh. Okay. What if I told you about the forces underpinning the universe?"

"Read the invoice, pal, no discounts for cosmological revelations."

[Fyraltari]

It's a good thing then that other than musing about whether Kraagor even had a family or not, I've been talking about the three dwarves on the last panel discussing the big Gate their employer seems to have considered important for some reason. Hence the parenthetical remark concerning knowing about the Gates versus knowing about the Snarl.

A) You really could have made that clearer.
B) Not all dwarves worship Thor.
C) What makes you think these dwarves can contact Thor or vice-versa to have a chat about it?

It seems to me much easier to think that the reason Thor never sent any mortal emissary to the Dark One's agents before durkon & Minrah is simply because these two were the first time he had such an opportunity rather than it being because of the fall of Azure City.

[Peelee]

I do!

Lock him in the soul gem with Lirian and Dorukon!

That requires destroying him first.

Bind him as a Gate Guardian, able to act only in the defense of a gate. Preferably Lirian's.

How?

Make him sit on a cloud with Eugene for a millennium or two.

How?

Turn him to stone, then build a giant statue of Roy with his foot on Xykon's back. The big boot foot.

How?

Make a flute out of his femur, give it to Elan, and make it audible to Xykon no matter where he is when Elan plays it. Then tell Elan that he is a master flautist.

How?

Eliminate his spellcasting ability.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

That happened once. It did not turn out well.

Drop a cave ceiling on him, not to destroy him, but to pin him in place, unable to cast any spell with somatic or material components.

Still Meteor Swarm means he can probably Still Ghostform. And if he can't, well, Still Meteor Swarm.

[dancrilis]

You've got some ideas on how "horrible vengeance" against Xykon could be enacted without destroying him?

My preferred option is to kick him upstairs - i.e trick him into divinity.

As a deity he would have to put up with all the god rules, he would have to rely on mortal worship, his very nature would depend on beings nearly infinitely less powerful then him etc.

Xykon has likely always since childhood been so powerful he never needed to care about random commoners - making him utterly dependant on random commoners without any real ability to influence them, well a good author (i.e The Giant, and not me) might be able to deliver that in a satisfying way for the audience.

[Peelee]

My preferred option is to kick him upstairs - i.e trick him into divinity.

As a deity he would have to put up with all the god rules, he would have to rely on mortal worship, his very nature would depend on beings nearly infinitely less powerful then him etc.

Xykon has likely always since childhood been so powerful he never needed to care about random commoners - making him utterly dependant on random commoners without any real ability to influence them, well a good author (i.e The Giant, and not me) might be able to deliver that in a satisfying way for the audience.

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.
2.) or even that it's a choice at all.
iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

[dancrilis]

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.

I suspect that if Xykon saw a path to divinity he might jump at it before thinking about the consequences of success too much.

2.) or even that it's a choice at all.

I would doubt it is an option at all - and I don't see how it would be something Roy could or would undertake, but then I am not a published writer.

iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

Maybe - or maybe she tortures dishonourable dwarves in the afterlife because the dwarves believe she tortures dishonourable dwarves in the afterlife, if they thought she treated them wonderfully would she change to fit this new reality (like Loki with lying), I don't know.

For clarity I don't mean care about random commoners individually I mean care about random commoners collectively (I can see how that might not have been clear).

[Ruck]

A.) nothing indicates that's something that one can be "tricked" into.
2.) or even that it's a choice at all.
iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

iv. I don't think vengeance against Xykon would involve making him even more powerful than he is now.

[hungrycrow]

iii.) and even then, other gods don't care about random commoners. Hel seems pretty cruel and the only reason she's suffering now is because she made a bad wager.

This. You don't need to be nice to get worshippers. Either Xykon successfully manages a death cult, does more evil than ever, and is somewhat annoyed by having to work against god rules; or he fails and this is just a very slow way of killing him that kills a bunch more people in the process. I can't see why anyone in story would pursue this plan if it were even a possibility.

[Peelee]

I suspect that if Xykon saw a path to divinity he might jump at it before thinking about the consequences of success too much.

I really think the "consequences of success" are not what you think they are. Oh no, he'd become a god. How horrid.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I really think the "consequences of success" are not what you think they are. Oh no, he'd become a god. How horrid.

I mean, the only good joke I can think of it is Elan noting that it worked in Aladdin!

I'm not 100% convinced that Xykon absolutely needs to be destroyed outright, but that 5% is basically "maybe there's some process through which he gets trapped in an endless cycle of torment that he can't die to get out of." It does not include "maybe he becomes a literal deity and gets exactly the sort of power he's always wanted."

Not to mention that I cannot see Elan regarding that as a happy ending.

[Ruck]

I mean, the only good joke I can think of it is Elan noting that it worked in Aladdin!

I'm not 100% convinced that Xykon absolutely needs to be destroyed outright, but that 5% is basically "maybe there's some process through which he gets trapped in an endless cycle of torment that he can't die to get out of." It does not include "maybe he becomes a literal deity and gets exactly the sort of power he's always wanted."

Not to mention that I cannot see Elan regarding that as a happy ending.

Haha, I had the same thought about Aladdin before I read your post.

I think more generally, the suggestions for other ways Xykon could have horrible vengeance visited upon him mostly involve torturing him endlessly, and I think someone like Roy would have a problem with that. Let the Lower Planes do their job; we just want to end the threat he poses to everybody on the Material Plane.

[hungrycrow]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

[Fyraltari]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

Destroying his phylactery and disintegrating his remains would have the same effect with the added bonus of him going to hell, no?

[hungrycrow]

Destroying his phylactery and disintegrating his remains would have the same effect with the added bonus of him going to hell, no?

There's always some chance he could come back as long as his soul was still around, even if it ends up trapped in hell.

[Metastachydium]

A) You really could have made that clearer.

And you really could have assumed I'm not just too dumb to realize the Scribblers knew about the Snarl, even though they are seen fighting it in the same strip, but here we are.

B) Not all dwarves worship Thor.

Certainly, but "Thor likes dwarves and dwarves like Thor" is hard canon.

C) What makes you think these dwarves can contact Thor or vice-versa to have a chat about it?

By the look of it, that's not as huge an issue as you seem to think it is if they die well (which is apparently the norm).

It seems to me much easier to think that the reason Thor never sent any mortal emissary to the Dark One's agents before durkon & Minrah is simply because these two were the first time he had such an opportunity

Perhaps. My point is, that between Thor's moments of negligence and stuff like the dwarven contractors( or Kraagor's hypothetical family), that is hardly self-evident.

rather than it being because of the fall of Azure City.

Well, I sure do prefer that to the AU!variant where it's not Soon's Gate but Dorukan's, if you catch my drift.

[Fyraltari]

And you really could have assumed I'm not just too dumb to realize the Scribblers knew about the Snarl, even though they are seen fighting it in the same strip, but here we are.

Dude, calm down. I haven't called you dumb, implied that you were or even thought that you were.

You replied to:

None of the Scribblers worshipped him and the gods are forbidden from telling mortals about the Snarl if they don't already know.

with:

That may or may not be the case.

You'll have to excuse me for thinking that, when replying to a sentence about the Scribblers with "maybe that's right, maybe not" and linking to a page that's 99% about the Scribblers, you were still talking about the Scribblers and not the three random no-name joke NPCs in the last panel. I was just confused by this link and even asked you what you meant by that.

Certainly, but "Thor likes dwarves and dwarves like Thor" is hard canon.

Not, what's hard canon is that Thor is much more popular among the dwarves than among the humans, which just mean that there's a higher proportion of Thor-worshippers in the dwarven population than in the human one. I would bet the same is true of Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, so I wouldn't assume that any random dwarf is a Thor worshipper.

By the look of it, that's not as huge an issue as you seem to think it is if they die well (which is apparently the norm).

Again, that's only true if the dwarf is a worshipper of Thor, otherwise they're sent somewhere else. But more importantly, once they're dead, how are they going to contact the goblins? Most people can't afford a Ressurection, and Dwarves are unlikely to Ressurect a loved one who's escaped Hel's clutches. And, that's assumoing these guys are even dead in the first place. Sixty years isn't that long ago in Dwarf Years, for all we know, they're still in the construction business in Some Place Else.

Perhaps. My point is, that between Thor's moments of negligence and stuff like the dwarven contractors( or Kraagor's hypothetical family), that is hardly self-evident.

What's more likely to you: "Out of the tiny number of people who were aware of the Snarl in the last sixty years, this is the first time one could get a proper briefing from Thor because of those very same rules that tied his hand for all of book 6" or "Thor already had a chance to try and solve the biggest problem he's had in 1, 000, 000, 000, 000s of years but didn't for some reason"?

Well, I sure do prefer that to the AU!variant where it's not Soon's Gate but Dorukan's, if you catch my drift.

I do not. What does this mean?

[Dame_Mechanus]

I think more generally, the suggestions for other ways Xykon could have horrible vengeance visited upon him mostly involve torturing him endlessly, and I think someone like Roy would have a problem with that. Let the Lower Planes do their job; we just want to end the threat he poses to everybody on the Material Plane.

Right. Put it another way - I can see Roy not stepping in if Xykon winds up in that position, but it doesn't seem like it'll be his goal. Heck, it won't even be in his top ten. Roy's goal is Xykon's destruction because he is very much of the belief that this is the path to provide the most people with the most benefit. He's open to alternatives depending on the circumstances, but he'd need a really good reason to go that route... and right now he has zero reason to believe that the world wouldn't be safer without Xykon gone.

His job isn't to make his punishment fit his crimes. His job is to administer final death to someone who definitely deserves that as a baseline.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the most likely end for Xykon is getting annihilated by the Snarl, so there's no chance he can come back as a soul splice or something in Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

It's crucial that he cry out "I'm Melting!" as he gets consumed by the Snarl ...

[Metastachydium]

Dude, calm down. I haven't called you dumb, implied that you were or even thought that you were.

(…)

You'll have to excuse me for thinking that, when replying to a sentence about the Scribblers with "maybe that's right, maybe not" and linking to a page that's 99% about the Scribblers, you were still talking about the Scribblers and not the three random no-name joke NPCs in the last panel. I was just confused by this link and even asked you what you meant by that.

I'm calm enough, thank you. I'm just not really good at getting my message across these days (e.g. the colon tumor link was there to lighten the mood). I continue to hold that if something can (likely, at the very least) be read in a way that makes sense and in a way that REALLY doesn't, it's nice to try and ascertain how it could make sense. That said, I can see how my reply could throw you off the trail; I mainly responded to the second half of yours without bothering the delete the rest. Apologies.

Not, what's hard canon is that Thor is much more popular among the dwarves than among the humans, which just mean that there's a higher proportion of Thor-worshippers in the dwarven population than in the human one. I would bet the same is true of Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, so I wouldn't assume that any random dwarf is a Thor worshipper.

Last I checked, the elves have an entire pantheon of their own, complete with several fulltime deities. Dvalin, on the other hand, is a demigod even some of the clan elders are tired of. Between that and the "theological basis" for dwarves hating trees and that we only ever see Thor debating Hel for souls (Loki doesn't count) I think Thor might be a tad bit more popular. (Also, the Giant's comment was in response to and in agreement with (v. "[p]retty much this") a post suggesting that dwarves might be culturally predisposed towards worshipping Thor (to the point of him being somewhat like a dwarven racial deity).)

Again, that's only true if the dwarf is a worshipper of Thor,

Which is common.

But more importantly, once they're dead, how are they going to contact the goblins? Most people can't afford a Ressurection, and Dwarves are unlikely to Ressurect a loved one who's escaped Hel's clutches. otherwise they're sent somewhere else.

Death is temporary! All they need to find is an adventurer who just came to spend the night. Not that Thor couldn't send a cryptic message to his clergy (e.g. through Odin who literally did the same before probably to achieve pretty much the same thing or in the same way Loki instructed Hilgya) that goes like "Raise this random dude".

And, that's assumoing these guys are even dead in the first place. Sixty years isn't that long ago in Dwarf Years, for all we know, they're still in the construction business in Some Place Else.

No, it's not a long time. But Stickverse!dwarves are not really likely to die form old age (see also the quote from the Giant). And those three? They didn't sound like they'll earn their place in somewhere that's not Hel's place through a life of virtue.

What's more likely to you: "Out of the tiny number of people who were aware of the Snarl in the last sixty years, this is the first time one could get a proper briefing from Thor because of those very same rules that tied his hand for all of book 6" or "Thor already had a chance to try and solve the biggest problem he's had in 1, 000, 000, 000, 000s of years but didn't for some reason"?

It's not about likelihood per se, although the latter's more likely than you make it out to be, given what we've seen of Thor &c. Or, rather, it is, but not like that. "Self-evidently the case" is, after all, a degree of probability, it's just not quite the same thing as "more likely".

I do not. What does this mean?

The battle for Azure City is when Redcloak snaps out of his trauma-induced stupor and gets past his prejudices. If the Church of Big Purple going big is not a key factor, then the sole key factor is the Order learning about the Snarl from Shojo, which couldn't have happened had it not been for Elan blowing up the Gate which, in turn wouldn't have happened if the Order hadn't captured that room while they were at carrying out Roy's family vendetta against Xykon, who, but for Redcloak, wouldn't have been there or, for that matter, aware of the significance the place had.

In other words, it would mean that the reason why the meeting took place as it did was that Redcloak and a close relative screwed up their own lives royally.

[WanderingMist]

Only Blackwing will survive the massive random slaughter at the end of the comic when the Snarl is let loose.

[ZhonLord]

Only Blackwing will survive the massive random slaughter at the end of the comic when the Snarl is let loose.

I seem to remember 3.5 familiars being tied to their mage's life force; so wouldn't Blackwing cease to exist if V also does?

[InvisibleBison]

I seem to remember 3.5 familiars being tied to their mage's life force; so wouldn't Blackwing cease to exist if V also does?

As far as I know, the rules are silent as to what happens to a familiar whose master dies.

[brian 333]

As far as I know, the rules are silent as to what happens to a familiar whose master dies.

It goes back to the lifestyle it had before becoming a familiar.

[InvisibleBison]

It goes back to the lifestyle it had before becoming a familiar.

Do you have a source for that?

[Peelee]

Do you have a source for that?

From elsewhere on the internet:

Death of a Master

If a master dies and the familiar survives, part of the master lives on in the familiar. It loses any extra hit points and skills it gained from the master but retains most of its familiar abilities. It is treated as having a master two levels lower (but never below 1st level). If the master is later brought back from the dead, the bond is reestablished, and the familiar gains whatever abilities go along with the master’s new level

Although published before the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Revision, anything not republished from Tome and Blood is still a source for Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 information according to Why a Revision? (DMG (2003), p. 4)

As long as that section of Tome and Blood is not reprinted or superseded by newer material, it still pertains to the rules at large.

[brian 333]

From elsewhere on the internet:

Never saw that one. New info requires new answers to old assumptions.