Warhammer End Times vs Marvel Secret Wars 2015

[TheSummoner]

Mannfred deserves all of the hatred he gets for his role in the End Times, but you know who doesn't get nearly enough? Teclis.

"No, brother, don't go rescue your daughter and stop the most evil non-daemonic thing in existence from being revived. We need her to die horribly so we can ally with the 20 story tall skeleton man so scary that the skaven of all races stopped infighting to try to deal with him. We need to ally with the guy whose spent several thousand years inflicting atrocities on our homeland as well. It has to happen so we can defeat this massive daemonic invasion. I also am going to undo the magical vortex that draws magic out of the world and makes it difficult for daemons to manifest in reality."

[Talakeal]

Mannfred deserves all of the hatred he gets for his role in the End Times, but you know who doesn't get nearly enough? Teclis.

"No, brother, don't go rescue your daughter and stop the most evil non-daemonic thing in existence from being revived. We need her to die horribly so we can ally with the 20 story tall skeleton man so scary that the skaven of all races stopped infighting to try to deal with him. We need to ally with the guy whose spent several thousand years inflicting atrocities on our homeland as well. It has to happen so we can defeat this massive daemonic invasion. I also am going to undo the magical vortex that draws magic out of the world and makes it difficult for daemons to manifest in reality."

Don’t forget about destroying the sacred flame under Middenheim to raise his brother.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, pretty much. I think ending the world out of spite because someone told you that you were unimportant is a very human motivation and not one often seen in fiction.

I also am a bit biased because of head canon, but I played a Lahmian in WHFRPG and several times tried to form an alliance with the Van Carsteins, and every time Mannfred ruined it for no good reason, so this seems totally in character for me.

Thats your GM running Mannfred, not actual Mannfred.

Also, people trust the Lahmians exactly as far as they trust the Skaven. IE, they don't.

I have never denied that Mannfred is a scheming backstabbing ruthless SOB. I deny that he is a complete ineffectual moron who makes the most cartoonish versions of Starscream look like Sun Tzu. If he's going to backstab you, he is going to do it in a way that doesn't come back to get him. And he most certainly isn't going to shank Balthazar AND GET HIMSELF KILLED MIND YOU out of petty spite. Mannfred gains things from his backstabbing.

What I'm saying is, he's a less adept Xanatos if he's being written correctly, because the Mannfred that begins the End Times is one that recently got resurrected (on accident) by Gotrek and Felix killing a Necromancer on his grave. This is a Mannfred who has died once and doesn't want to do so again.

So he sits in Sylvania playing the long, cautious game of being a shadowy puppet master. He's risk averse, cautious and very patient at this stage. Because he doesn't want to die again.

Nothing he does during the End Times is even remotely close to this. Hell, the second time he screwed up Nagash should have just offed him and kept Vlad around, but Vlad makes even less sense for screwing over all of existence so they kept Mannfred around. Who still makes no sense for screwing over all of existence.

Hell, Snikch Flash Stepping behind Balthazar and shanking him makes more sense than what actually happened.

[GloatingSwine]

Mannfred was the guy who pretended to be dead for centuries after the Vampire Wars whilst mad idiots like Konrad ran around Sylvania. Patiently waiting for the best time to stab you in the back is his thing.

[Fyraltari]

Mannfred was the guy who pretended to be dead for centuries after the Vampire Wars whilst mad idiots like Konrad ran around Sylvania. Patiently waiting for the best time to stab you in the back is his thing.

Okay but "currently holding the world together" is the literal worst time to stab a guy in the back.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. Everyone expected Manfred to stab someone in the back at some point. That's what he does. But not when stabbing in the back means the world ends and he knows it.

[dancrilis]

Mannfred was poorly written in End Times this cannot be denied, but I think I will offer a partial defence for destroying the world - Nagash was back, and Nagash is likely* in the running for most evil character to ever grace fiction (and with the power to back that up).

There is no escape from Nagash (certainly not death) - Mannfred might have figured that the world (and himself) being unmade by the forces of chaos was its (and his) only escape from what may have been the aftermath.

*I of course have not read all of fiction so if people have a suggestion for who is worse I am happy to read about it.

[Blackhawk748]

Mannfred was poorly written in End Times this cannot be denied, but I think I will offer a partial defence for destroying the world - Nagash was back, and Nagash is likely* in the running for most evil character to ever grace fiction (and with the power to back that up).

There is no escape from Nagash (certainly not death) - Mannfred might have figured that the world (and himself) being unmade by the forces of chaos was its (and his) only escape from what may have been the aftermath.

*I of course have not read all of fiction so if people have a suggestion for who is worse I am happy to read about it.

See that's fine, except for the fact that Mannfred is the one responsible for the resurrection of Nagash in the first place, and wanting to escape Nagash wasn't his motivation for stabbing Balthazar. It was petty childish spite. Which is the problem.

[dancrilis]

See that's fine, except for the fact that Mannfred is the one responsible for the resurrection of Nagash in the first place, and wanting to escape Nagash wasn't his motivation for stabbing Balthazar. It was petty childish spite. Which is the problem.

Agreed - but he didn't raise Nagash for the joy of raising Nagash if I remember, but bringing back Nagash was likely somewhat out of character to begin with - 'lets bring back the guy who is so much more powerful then me that it isn't even funny and also who is kindof a massive jerk' was likely never a smart play.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Plus Nagash has perfectly serviceable loyal lieutenants. Could have used Arkhan for everything.

[Dragonus45]

Mannfred was the guy who pretended to be dead for centuries after the Vampire Wars whilst mad idiots like Konrad ran around Sylvania. Patiently waiting for the best time to stab you in the back is his thing.

Then why would he pick literally the worst possible time out of all possible times to ever stab anyone in the back under any circumstances to stab someone in the back?

[GloatingSwine]

Then why would he pick literally the worst possible time out of all possible times to ever stab anyone in the back under any circumstances to stab someone in the back?

Because it was the End Times, and the End Times were dumb and bad.

[M1982]

Then why would he pick literally the worst possible time out of all possible times to ever stab anyone in the back under any circumstances to stab someone in the back?

It was the End Times, so he knew that it was now or never because everything was going to end. It's right in the name!. ;)

[Fyraltari]

It was the End Times, so he knew that it was now or never because everything was going to end. It's right in the name!. ;)

My favourite part of The End Times is when Mannfrend said "It's Ending Time!" and then ended all over Balthasar Gelt.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah. Plus Nagash has perfectly serviceable loyal lieutenants. Could have used Arkhan for everything.

And Arkhan generally did a good job during the End Times. Not stellar, but was consistently reliable. Which is something Nagash values.

Hell, he revived Vlad. Just use him!

[GloatingSwine]

And Arkhan generally did a good job during the End Times. Not stellar, but was consistently reliable. Which is something Nagash values.

Hell, he revived Vlad. Just use him!

Well he did, but Vlad the Chad did the whole heroically sacrificing himself to free his wife from possession thing.

[Blackhawk748]

Well he did, but Vlad the Chad did the whole heroically sacrificing himself to free his wife from possession thing.

Then just revive him again! Or, if Nagash was just gonna use Vlad over Manny (which I totally would) just bring back Isabella too so you have a happy General. Well, pair of Generals because Isabella is pretty great herself.

[MCerberus]

I would like this thread to note that a separate medium has found the true Warhammer end time.

"A grudge too far" - The dawi tide

[Blackhawk748]

I would like this thread to note that a separate medium has found the true Warhammer end time.

"A grudge too far" - The dawi tide

I believe that is part of the overall Order Tide, which has been more recently subsumed into the Green Tide.

Its a bit of a mess currently.

[MCerberus]

I believe that is part of the overall Order Tide, which has been more recently subsumed into the Green Tide.

Its a bit of a mess currently.

THEY HAVE WRONGED US

[Devlerbat]

I can certainly see complaints with the main story of the 2015 Secret Wars, but it did provide a lot of fun side stories in its tie-ins in my opinion.