Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood

[Rodin]

There is one plot that Brotherhood elides completely until it becomes relevant again, then does a quick flashback to explain it. Kind of robs some impact, but you don't miss out on that much.

If this is the plot I'm thinking of it's the one place where I recommend watching an episode from the original series (Episode 9) before you hit the point where Brotherhood introduces the character (Episode 15).

Not only does it give a good "Who the hell is this and why have they suddenly shown up?" background on the character, but it also makes Ed and Al's first encounter with them in Brotherhood hilarious.

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Especially the meta joke where Ed says "No really, WE HAVEN'T MET BEFORE" because the events Yoki is referring to never happened in this continuity.

Brotherhood just sort of assumes you know the backstory and glides past it. It's not terribly important (since you get the Cliff's notes in a flashback) but the original episode is worth watching and the events from it come up more than once in Brotherhood.

[Psyren]

If someone combined the front part of 2003 FMA with the middle and back parts of Brotherhood I'm convinced you'd have the greatest anime of all time. But Brotherhood is still stellar on its own.

And while 2003 gets a lot of hate after Lab 5, I personally enjoyed it. Dante's creepy theme music is still one of my favorite villain motifs in anything, and for being a non-canon baddie she was actually pretty interesting even if things fall apart a bit when you examine them closely.

In the closing song (which is stuck in my head), we see Elric and Alphonse deconstructing. We also we Winry, sway for a moment and then recover. Did something happen to her, or is that just "Holy ****, my friends just deconstructed"?

Do you mean this song at around 0:50? Because that's an opener, not a closing song.

And yes, the wind and deconstructions are both literal and metaphorical.

[LaZodiac]

If someone combined the front part of 2003 FMA with the middle and back parts of Brotherhood I'm convinced you'd have the greatest anime of all time. But Brotherhood is still stellar on its own.

And while 2003 gets a lot of hate after Lab 5, I personally enjoyed it. Dante's creepy theme music is still one of my favorite villain motifs in anything, and for being a non-canon baddie she was actually pretty interesting even if things fall apart a bit when you examine them closely.



Do you mean this song at around 0:50? Because that's an opener, not a closing song.

And yes, the wind and deconstructions are both literal and metaphorical.

The first ep of Brotherhood (and a lot of recent anime now that I think about it) end with the op theme. It's a neat touch!

[Anonymouswizard]

The first anime was very ehhhhh. I can see why it was popular, but the manga pretty much does every theme it touches on better. Particularly the entire 'was it equivalent exchange' bit. It had serious potential, but kind of needed some more episodes to fill out the plot and themes. The film for the 2003 series is also promising but very rushed, and as such features. It felt like the first four and last two episodes of a thirteen episode series.

Which is a shame, because it's better set up to explore the idea of using others, it's villains are just as interesting as the manga's (except for Wrath, anime Wrath is boring), and there's some interesting worldbuilding ideas in there. But basically none of it comes up in the first half of it, so there's no real time to delve into it.

The biggest disappointment is when

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Ed gets back to Amestris in The Conquerer of Shamballa and uses Alchemy without hesitation. Yes he's used to doing so, but he also now knows that all alchemy is powered by human souls. That should have been addressed, at least somewhat.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, it's not an objectively correct order, but I feel the original FMA series allowed for two specific plotlines to hit with more oomph.

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Besides the Tucker/Nina storyline, you spend a lot more time with Hughes in the original, and Ed and Al form a very close, personal bond with the man over the course of 25 full episodes before his death. The original anime is the reason why his death, and the funeral scene, have such a huge impact so many years later, and I think a big chunk (though not even close to all) of the emotional impact is lost in Brotherhood, since he has nearly a third of the screentime.

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You know, that makes a lot more sense to me now! I've only seen Brotherhood, and had always felt like Hughes' death was juiced for more emotional weight than it'd really earned. Knowing that this was covered in FMA in much greater detail, and that at the time the Brotherhood creators were thinking "FMA already did the early stuff so well, we should just summarize instead of retreading it, it's fairly fresh in viewers' minds so they'll remember most of it" makes a ton of sense.

Needless to say, I fully support this. Brotherhood is fantastic and I hope you enjoy. Congratulations on both getting convinced to try it, as well as holding off this long.

No kidding! I didn't realize you were a Fullmetal Alchemist fan. Do you have a favorite character, by any chance? /s, hopefully obviously

I agree with Prime32, but also I underline people who disagree with me also have valid opinions, logics, and values.

I feel trying to watch a machete type order is trying to digest too much and with the goal of pretending one can feel the right thing with just one watch. No this is like the sixth sense, not because there is a twist, but because the characters grow on you the more you watch them, and one does not need linear sequential time for this growing occurs all the time for these characters have a consistent charming core. The show does encourage rewatched so you have the freedom to enjoy both of them more than once.

Yeah, I only watched Brotherhood and it didn't cause any problems for me (though like I mentioned above, knowing the extra context makes the experience richer). Maybe a better approach is to watch Brotherhood all the way, and then if you're looking for "bonus" content you can watch the early FMA stuff that was still following the manga to fill in some gaps?

[pendell]

I've only watched Brotherhood because it's available on crunchyroll while the others aren't. I was deeply impressed with the show, and liked it even better the second time around. There's a lot of action, good characterization, an engaging plot, and some truly vile villains. It's also thought-provoking, which is always a sure way to my favorites category.

Never having seen the original FMA, I can't be disappointed at the extent the reboot diverged from the original. The reboot stands well on its own two feet, without reference to the earlier show.


If I had one criticism, it is that the show seemed too long .. I won't go into details but the "Promised day" seemed to take almost an entire season. I suspect they were trying to stretch it out to make more episodes, but it would have benefited from a little more brevity, story-wise.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Never having seen the original FMA, I can't be disappointed at the extent the reboot diverged from the original. The reboot stands well on its own two feet, without reference to the earlier show.

The original is the one that diverged. From what I understand, Brotherhood was the more faithful adaptation (if only because they had the whole manga to work with). Which is probably why

I won't go into details but the "Promised day" seemed to take almost an entire season.

I suspect they were trying to stretch it out to make more episodes, but it would have benefited from a little more brevity, story-wise.

It feels long in the manga too.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also I believe the manga and Brotherhood ended in the same month, so I suspect the last arc was primarily put together from rough drafts.

It's also to note that the original anime's second half was apparently written by Hiromu Arakawa, which is why it mostly retains thematic consistency with the first quarter of the manga. It's just executed comparatively poorly.

[Lemmy]

The only real issue with Brotherhood is that it rushes through the first half because its producers assumed most of the audience has already seen the original anime (they're correct).

The best experience, IMO, is to watch the original up to episode 25, in which...

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Hughes dies.

...Then go with Brotherhood from then on, starting at episode 10 (I think. It might be episode 11).

[Anonymouswizard]

Or you could just read the manga for the best experience. No bad filler, just what the story needs to set up the later three quarters of the story.

[Rynjin]

While very valid, I also think it's worth mulling over how the anime experience can be "optimized" for greater enjoyment.

[Lemmy]

Or you could just read the manga for the best experience. No bad filler, just what the story needs to set up the later three quarters of the story.

Sure... But the thread is about the anime.

Besides, as good as the manga is (and it is probably the best version of the story), it still has the same disadvantages compared to the anime as every other manga... No color, no animation, no voice acting... You know... The things that make people watch anime in the first place.

[Psyren]

I was compelled to rewatch (due to my SO, not this thread) and it definitely still holds up.

One question I had:

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So at the conclusion of the series, Ed trades his alchemy in exchange for Al's body. Then the two brothers part ways, one heading east and the other west, to continue gaining knowledge.

If Ed can't do alchemy anymore, how will he bring back any of his knowledge? Just taking copious notes? Or perhaps the Not-France country to the west of Amestris' Not-Germany will be doing actual science instead of alchemy and maybe he can bring back some of that...?

I did find it interesting that both FMA03 and FMAB end with Ed losing his alchemy in exchange for Al's body, so maybe the original creators had that note from Hiromu.

[LaZodiac]

I was compelled to rewatch (due to my SO, not this thread) and it definitely still holds up.

One question I had:

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So at the conclusion of the series, Ed trades his alchemy in exchange for Al's body. Then the two brothers part ways, one heading east and the other west, to continue gaining knowledge.

If Ed can't do alchemy anymore, how will he bring back any of his knowledge? Just taking copious notes? Or perhaps the Not-France country to the west of Amestris' Not-Germany will be doing actual science instead of alchemy and maybe he can bring back some of that...?

I did find it interesting that both FMA03 and FMAB end with Ed losing his alchemy in exchange for Al's body, so maybe the original creators had that note from Hiromu.

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Possibly. It was mentioned she worked at least some degree on the original anime as well.

But yeah, Ed's just gonna take a lot of notes, maybe look at sciences that aren't purely magi-science based.

[Fyraltari]

One question I had:

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So at the conclusion of the series, Ed trades his alchemy in exchange for Al's body. Then the two brothers part ways, one heading east and the other west, to continue gaining knowledge.

If Ed can't do alchemy anymore, how will he bring back any of his knowledge? Just taking copious notes?

Yes? Why wouldn't that work? That's a big part of how learning stuff works.

[Anonymouswizard]

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Yeah, the fact that Ed's just taking notes and going to pass them onto Al, Izumi, and others seemed fairly obvious to me. Honestly Ed was never the better alchemist, but always the better scholar, so he'll likely pick up the theory of both foreign alchemy and nonalchemical science quickly.

I've always been more interested in what Ed does after his travels. I've generally assumed he became a schoolteacher, but I can very much see Roy specifically recruiting him as a researcher or ethics inspection.

[Psyren]

Yes? Why wouldn't that work? That's a big part of how learning stuff works.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial, but it's kind of sad.

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Like that dwarf lady in Dragon Age devoting herself to learning magic despite never being able to use it. Actually it's worse, because he used to be one of the best alchemists in the country. A job where he's constantly reminded of the thing he lost (and where Al won't even be nearby to remind him of what he gained in return) seems a bit on the traumatic side.

If nothing else, I'd have him bring the chimera along instead of Al. Al can at least protect himself in case those other countries are less than friendly toward Amestrians. (Not exactly a remote possibility.) Though who knows, maybe Winry will take the time to slap a few gadgets into his automail before he goes.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial, but it's kind of sad.

No, it's not.

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There's plenty to learn that isn't alchemy. Alchemy brought nothing to this family but sorrow. Ed doesn't regret giving it up. Like he says when fixing the roof, with alchemy he could fix it up in a flash, but sometimes it's better to take your time.

[LaZodiac]

I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial, but it's kind of sad.

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Like that dwarf lady in Dragon Age devoting herself to learning magic despite never being able to use it. Actually it's worse, because he used to be one of the best alchemists in the country. A job where he's constantly reminded of the thing he lost (and where Al won't even be nearby to remind him of what he gained in return) seems a bit on the traumatic side.

If nothing else, I'd have him bring the chimera along instead of Al. Al can at least protect himself in case those other countries are less than friendly toward Amestrians. (Not exactly a remote possibility.) Though who knows, maybe Winry will take the time to slap a few gadgets into his automail before he goes.

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Edward Elric gave up his alchemy without a second thought, and a being describable only as God told him "You did it. That's the right answer".

Dude's never going to feel genuinely traumatized about losing the ability to do alchemy. Jokingly, when he's up on the roof hammering in nails, but never in any serious way.

[Psyren]

No, it's not.

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There's plenty to learn that isn't alchemy. Alchemy brought nothing to this family but sorrow. Ed doesn't regret giving it up. Like he says when fixing the roof, with alchemy he could fix it up in a flash, but sometimes it's better to take your time.

Eh, I find that trope/cliche boring. Almost every fantasy setting, its protagonists, or both end up that way.

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We never needed magic all along! Look how fulfilling it is to hammer in all these nails one at a time by hand instead.

Yeah, obviously you don't need it. But magic is cool, and it's not inherently evil either.

If doing everything the hard way is so much fun, why doesn't everyone just give up alchemy then. Oh wait, Alphonse gets to keep his. Guess he's okay with his family's "sorrow" then.

Mustang's approach was much more practical:

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When presented with a philosopher's stone and told "hey, you can get your eyesight back, and these souls aren't really useful for anything else" he replies "Hell yeah, and while you're at it, can you heal my paralyzed subordinate? Gosh, magic is awesome." And it's not presented as anything other than it is - sensible.

He probably could have traded his door for his eyesight back too. Turns out that being able to use magic AND see makes more sense. Who knew?

[Fyraltari]

Eh, I find that trope/cliche boring. Almost every fantasy setting, its protagonists, or both end up that way.

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We never needed magic all along! Look how fulfilling it is to hammer in all these nails one at a time by hand instead.

Yeah, obviously you don't need it. But magic is cool, and it's not inherently evil either.

If doing everything the hard way is so much fun, why doesn't everyone just give up alchemy then. Oh wait, Alphonse gets to keep his. Guess he's okay with his family's "sorrow" then.

Mustang's approach was much more practical:

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When presented with a philosopher's stone and told "hey, you can get your eyesight back, and these souls aren't really useful for anything else" he replies "Hell yeah, and while you're at it, can you heal my paralyzed subordinate? Gosh, magic is awesome." And it's not presented as anything other than it is - sensible.

He probably could have traded his door for his eyesight back too. Turns out that being able to use magic AND see makes more sense. Who knew?

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The point is not that alchemy is evil, the point is that he's not going to miss it.

[Psyren]

*snip*

(You may want to spoiler that)

By "kind of sad" I meant the (overused imo) trope, not his mindset. I agree he's not sad at all.

For me the important thing was

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being willing to give it all up, not necessarily being forced to live without it.

[Anonymouswizard]

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The point is not that alchemy is evil, the point is that he's not going to miss it.

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This. Edward proposed the deal, got what he wanted, and is happy with that. He got what he wanted without crossing the line he wanted to avoid crossing, and relatively quickly finds a new purpose in life.

Ed was put in the position where he had to make a choice, and he made the choice which linked up with his previous choices. Notably I think that 2003 Ed would have made the other choice, he had more flexible morals since at least Lab 5.

[TurboGhast]

The only real issue with Brotherhood is that it rushes through the first half because its producers assumed most of the audience has already seen the original anime (they're correct).

The best experience, IMO, is to watch the original up to episode 25, in which...

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Hughes dies.

...Then go with Brotherhood from then on, starting at episode 10 (I think. It might be episode 11).

I'd disagree. One of the strengths of the series as a whole is cohesion, and that events which appear minor come up again with significant effect. By the time you're that far into the first anime, it's already introduced plenty of concepts that it follows up that have no counterpart in Brotherhood.

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The toxic red water as a catalyst for philosopher's stones, the brothers who impersonated the Elric brothers, and Bradley's secretary being a homunculi.

As a result, IMO it's better to just pick one to watch first, finish it, then watch the other one.

[Psyren]

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This. Edward proposed the deal, got what he wanted, and is happy with that. He got what he wanted without crossing the line he wanted to avoid crossing, and relatively quickly finds a new purpose in life.

Ed was put in the position where he had to make a choice, and he made the choice which linked up with his previous choices. Notably I think that 2003 Ed would have made the other choice, he had more flexible morals since at least Lab 5.

'03 Ed indeed ends up very different. Notably, he learns

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thanks to Greed sometimes it's okay to kill, which FMAB Ed never actually has to do.

Neither philosophy is inherently wrong, but they lead to very different characters.

I'd disagree. One of the strengths of the series as a whole is cohesion, and that events which appear minor come up again with significant effect. By the time you're that far into the first anime, it's already introduced plenty of concepts that it follows up that have no counterpart in Brotherhood.

Spoiler: The Most Glaring Examples

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The toxic red water as a catalyst for philosopher's stones, the brothers who impersonated the Elric brothers, and Bradley's secretary being a homunculi.

As a result, IMO it's better to just pick one to watch first, finish it, then watch the other one.

Eh, I think those small discrepancies are a small price to pay for getting the full buildup leading to

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the two most major deaths in the early part of the story.

Also, the two "Elric Brothers" episodes, while not canon to the manga, are a decent adaptation of the plot of the light novel "Land of Sand". So just view it as a bonus side story and you're golden. (Or skip it. The important bits from '03 are in the spoiler.)

[Ionathus]

Mustang's approach was much more practical:

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When presented with a philosopher's stone and told "hey, you can get your eyesight back, and these souls aren't really useful for anything else" he replies "Hell yeah, and while you're at it, can you heal my paralyzed subordinate? Gosh, magic is awesome." And it's not presented as anything other than it is - sensible.

He probably could have traded his door for his eyesight back too. Turns out that being able to use magic AND see makes more sense. Who knew?

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On the subject of Mustang, I appreciate that the show allowed both perspectives to persist. Ed and Al get to refuse using a Philosopher's Stone (for personal gain) out of sheer revulsion, and Mustang gets to create some good out of a terrible situation. Letting both of those decisions play out, and not second-guessing or giving one of them more approval from the narrative, is a rare decision in storytelling. It's very seldom that the protagonist ever disagrees with an ally and one of the two positions isn't ultimately shown to be flawed. I liked it.

[Psyren]

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On the subject of Mustang, I appreciate that the show allowed both perspectives to persist. Ed and Al get to refuse using a Philosopher's Stone (for personal gain) out of sheer revulsion, and Mustang gets to create some good out of a terrible situation. Letting both of those decisions play out, and not second-guessing or giving one of them more approval from the narrative, is a rare decision in storytelling. It's very seldom that the protagonist ever disagrees with an ally and one of the two positions isn't ultimately shown to be flawed. I liked it.

Agreed.

Interesting note:

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Brotherhood has two key changes to this epilogue scene vs. the manga:

1) They added the scene of Breda quizzing Mustang on foreign affairs to help him prepare for the job of Fuhrer. It's a nice touch that shows how Mustang's leadership is shaping up to be vastly different than Bradley's.

2) Mustang opting to use the stone is present in both versions, however Brotherhood has him add the stipulation that Marco heal Havoc before himself. I thought this was a great character moment, definitely what Mustang would do in this situation, and an improvement over the manga overall.

[Gnoman]

There is one thing that I'd like to have addressed that wasn't.

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Namely, since Mustang didn't immediately become Fuhrer (unless I'm remembering wrong, General Grumman? got the job instead), we don't know if Mustang was able to hold to his plan of abolishing military rule. Not to mention his other stated goal of placing himself and all his friends on trial for crimes against humanity.

[LaZodiac]

There is one thing that I'd like to have addressed that wasn't.

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Namely, since Mustang didn't immediately become Fuhrer (unless I'm remembering wrong, General Grumman? got the job instead), we don't know if Mustang was able to hold to his plan of abolishing military rule. Not to mention his other stated goal of placing himself and all his friends on trial for crimes against humanity.

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The idea is that Grumman is basically a puppet ruler, I believe, with Mustang's coalition controlling things behind the scenes. It's part of why Mustang gets his eyes back at all- a symbolic representation that he is going to move forward as the new manipulator of the world, and in order to see his vision through to the end he needs his eyes to see. In a way it's kind of sinister. Mustang is a good guy, but he uses everyone around him to get the win, including being the only person who made the sacrifice inherent to human transmutation... and got his cost back.

Does the fact that he intends for him and all his men to be put up for war crimes once they've made the world a better place counteract the fact that his path to fixing the world IS so morally gray? And will he even do that, given what we've seen him do? I'd say yes, but what trial in the world is going to convict Mustang and his men for what they've done, after what else they've done? Ultimately, it's addressed BY not addressing it; taken everything in the series, where do you think it'll go from here? Will Mustang really do it, or will he weasel his way out to be on top like he's done with everything else?

This is all positive, by the way. I think the fact that Mustang is... a character with a lot of moral conflict to him, is one of the best things in this series.

[Fyraltari]

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what trial in the world is going to convict Mustang and his men for what they've done, after what else they've done?

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An Ishbal tribunal might. Also, how much of what has happened is classified information? I think the official story is that Mustang, the Elric brothers and Co. lead a counter insurgency against a plot against Bradley.