She-Hulk - New Trailer

[Dragonus45]

The pushing Jen off the cliff was the equivalent to me pushing a friend into a pool. It's just a thing rowdy friends do.

Yea it reminds me a lot of the scene where he should bumped Thor through several blocks of NYC in the first Avengers movie.

[Dr.Samurai]

That's not what she says, though. What she says is that if she doesn't control her anger in those situations, she faces consequences in a way that Bruce didn't before he became the Hulk.

Emphasizing one part of her speech does not change the point being made behind the speech. Paraphrasing from memory, she says something like: That's the thing Bruce, I already know how to control my anger because I have to do it all the time. Every time I get catcalled, or mansplained to, if I don't control my anger I'll get called emotional or literally get murdered, so yeah I can control my anger because I've had to do it infinitely more times than you.

The point being made is quite clear. Men infuriate women constantly and women are not allowed to be infuriated because it might get them killed, so she has had to control her anger "infinitely more times" than Bruce, hence/thus/therefore/consequently/for that reason... she's in control of her Hulk powers and he is not.

This, by the way, is the part of the stuff I find so demeaning to women. It's like... she doesn't mention one thing that makes her mad that doesn't have to do with men. The implication of course is that men are getting by without these daily infuriating events while women are these tortured creatures tormented daily by men. And meanwhile all the women I know are not fixated on this meme being pushed in literally every single piece of media right now, and it's unfortunate that women characters have to be portrayed as obsessively haunted by the presence of men. (The other part in this episode is when the group of women find her, assume she's been the target of domestic abuse and... beautify her lol. Like, her clothes are torn, she's dirty and bleeding. No call to the police. No question about if she was in an accident or if something worse happened. Just... oh domestic abuse and here's some makeup and a pair of shoes now be on your merry way. Then they leave her alone to stumble into a pack of marauding men out on the prowl lol.)

Even this thread contains an example of the way men's anger and women's anger are treated differently: in a fit of pique, Bruce pushes her off a cliff.

This is precisely my point. She's an invulnerable immortal and I'm still supposed to take a joke played for laughs as violence, and if I don't it's demonstrative of some sort of discrimination.

Meanwhile, from this very thread, Bruce is described as a "kidnapper" and as "projecting hard". It can't be that he knows firsthand the horror of hulking out, how it ruins your life, gets other people hurt or killed, and how it takes years to get somewhere stable and you still might not have full control. It's not that Bruce is desperately trying to save his cousin from one regrettable and life-altering disaster now that she's a Hulk. Nah, he punched her off a cliff, what a jerk.

The hero is gone from Hulk/Bruce. He's just a schmuck that explains things to a woman for no reason and makes horse noises at her.

She's fully aware that Bruce's life is worse than hers. That's why she doesn't want to be a superhero.

Being fully aware would, presumably, come with some sort of empathy or respect or something to indicate that she understands where Bruce is coming from, instead of tearing him down and doubling down later.

Also, she doesn't have to be a super hero. She's in full control. She didn't have to transform in the courtroom, whereas Bruce would have automatically transformed due to danger. But she chose to. And not even because she thought people were in danger, but because of peer pressure. Somehow I don't think the tension is going to match "I can't control this hulk monster, but if I don't fight this bad guy, people might get hurt, but if I do, people might still get hurt".

The thing Bruce is trying to convince Jen of, basically the spiderman great power speech, is the same thing Jen says...at the start. So the conflict is kind of artificial and contrived.

Exactly right, it's a forced conflict.

@Cikomyr - I'm skeptical of what this "re-establishing" might look like. But we'll have to wait and see. I'm also skeptical that we're not meant to agree with anyone. It is quite possible, but my experience in threads like this is that critiques of characters like this are generally born out as more episodes/sequels are released.

That said, based on Palanan's post, it sounds like opportunities to dunk on heroes will be limited in this next episode, so that's good.

[Vinyadan]

makes horse noises at her.

Did he call her "my cousin Whinny"?

[theNater]

The pushing Jen off the cliff was the equivalent to me pushing a friend into a pool. It's just a thing rowdy friends do.

I don't know who needs to hear this, but as a general rule:

If your friends are pushing you into pools when they get angry, they need to stop. That's not okay.
If you are pushing your friends into pools when you get angry, you need to stop. That's not okay.

Rowdy roughhousing is fine as long as everybody's having fun, but it's not an appropriate response to anger.

[Tyndmyr]

The point being made is quite clear. Men infuriate women constantly and women are not allowed to be infuriated because it might get them killed, so she has had to control her anger "infinitely more times" than Bruce, hence/thus/therefore/consequently/for that reason... she's in control of her Hulk powers and he is not.

Men are murdered at a higher rate than women are. About four times higher.

Maybe in universe is different, but if so, it most definitely wasn't covered.

They probably could have told a story about the challenges Jen had faced, showing some of them, but they skipped over that. Perhaps that's what they attempted to do by her colleague offering to give the closing speech instead, or the guys at the bar, but surely neither of those come close to murder. Both are hardly brief annoyances.

The other part in this episode is when the group of women find her, assume she's been the target of domestic abuse and... beautify her lol. Like, her clothes are torn, she's dirty and bleeding. No call to the police. No question about if she was in an accident or if something worse happened. Just... oh domestic abuse and here's some makeup and a pair of shoes now be on your merry way. Then they leave her alone to stumble into a pack of marauding men out on the prowl lol.

Yeah, that was also odd. Like, who reacts in that way? Like your most pressing problem is a lack of beauty, not, yknow, the assault they presumed happened? That again crosses over into oddly sexist/awful. I think actual people would be asking if you need help, offering to call someone, etc. That scene didn't feel real.

[Sholos]

The pushing Jen off the cliff was the equivalent to me pushing a friend into a pool. It's just a thing rowdy friends do.

Also echoes of the time he punched Thor in Avengers for getting more kills.

I find myself wondering if the people challenging Jen's description of simply living as a woman have actually talked to any women about their experiences. Maybe go ask a friend how many times she's held her temper out of fear of someone's (mostly men's) reaction.

[Devonix]

Also echoes of the time he punched Thor in Avengers for getting more kills.

I find myself wondering if the people challenging Jen's description of simply living as a woman have actually talked to any women about their experiences. Maybe go ask a friend how many times she's held her temper out of fear of someone's (mostly men's) reaction.

I will say that there are a bunch of different situations and circumstances for anger to discuss. Don't like bringing it up, myself, but through my life I've had to hold it in or otherwise fall into the " Angry Black Man " situation just by revealing my frustration about things going on around me.

[Cikomyr2]

Men are murdered at a higher rate than women are. About four times higher.

We dont want to talk about gendered violence, because i otherwise i could bring up rape statistics. And nobody wants to go there.

[Divayth Fyr]

I find myself wondering if the people challenging Jen's description of simply living as a woman have actually talked to any women about their experiences. Maybe go ask a friend how many times she's held her temper out of fear of someone's (mostly men's) reaction.

And then go ask a male friend the same. Why are we even trying to make it seem holding one's temper is a gender-specific thing? Just to defend the dump that is this shows writing (when it comes to this aspect at least)?

[Devonix]

Jen is approaching this from her own experience, and in a stressful situation. She's stating her own issues,

[Rodin]

Jen is approaching this from her own experience, and in a stressful situation. She's stating her own issues,

And is doing so from working as a woman in a traditionally male-dominated job. I've had pretty much the exact rant Jen does from a relative when talking about a class action lawsuit filed against her company for gender discrimination.

Like the speech or not, it's not at all unrealistic for Jen to feel this way and it's not bad writing for her to express it.

[Sholos]

And then go ask a male friend the same. Why are we even trying to make it seem holding one's temper is a gender-specific thing? Just to defend the dump that is this shows writing (when it comes to this aspect at least)?

I absolutely guarantee you will hear FAR more stories of this from women vs men. Holding your temper well isn't more inherent to either men or women, but women are both socialized and have it come up more on average.

[Dr.Samurai]

Did he call her "my cousin Whinny"?

I made a My Cousin Vinny reference at work today and now I think you subliminally made me do that lol.

And then go ask a male friend the same. Why are we even trying to make it seem holding one's temper is a gender-specific thing? Just to defend the dump that is this shows writing (when it comes to this aspect at least)?

It's not to defend the show. Some people actually think that one gender has a unique position when it comes to suffering in life, and accept Jen Walters' claims in that scene with a straight face.


Anyways, my major annoyance is the takedown of Bruce. But the gender thing (while completely expected at this point) is still a little irritating and this recent exchange in this thread is precisely why. Instead of relating to one another, like Bruce and Jennifer could have, we're trying to one-up the other side with trauma in some weird and bizarre competition to show that one side suffers as much as or more than the other side. For some type of weird clout. Meanwhile, we all suffer in life, in the same ways, in different ways, in disproportional ways. But we're all on team Humanity, and we take on life partners and share in that struggle together. But people out there would have you think that one side is on easy street while the other side is unfairly burdened. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Anyways, I'm off to vacation, so I'll check back in after a week and see what this thread devolves into lol. I'll be going with a torn shoulder, a new bicep tear, and a hernia that just started giving me pain last week. All thanks to my previous career (and one current part time job) which requires lots of physical labor. But hey, some people get catcalled so I'll thank my lucky stars that all I have to deal with is permanent injury to my body. Peace!

PS: To the comment about men and holding tempers... I don't know if people know this but, unlike with women, every single confrontation between two men has a threat of violence behind it. This is biological and evolutionary. Violence is always on the table as conflict resolution between men, no matter how civilized. When a woman is victimized by a man, it feels more unfair to us and unjust (in part) because there is a physical disparity between the two. It's normal for us to be angry about it and for society to shun this. IT DOES NOT MEAN, however, that men are not victimized by other men and also don't have to check themselves and eat crow on the daily as well. But we do view this differently when it is man v man than if it is man v woman. The confusion here is to believe that man v woman happens more often and/or men don't have any sort of considerations in interactions with other men. There are some real POS out there, and we all have to deal with them in one way or another. And it's not to diminish anything that women deal with disproportionately, but it is to put it into context. It's not a zero sum game. Bruce can be coming from a place of real concern and traumatic experience without Jen having to feel like she needs to win a competition against him. That's what makes that particular scene jarring to me.

[JadedDM]

don't know if people know this but, unlike with women, every single confrontation between two men has a threat of violence behind it. This is biological and evolutionary. Violence is always on the table as conflict resolution between men, no matter how civilized.

Yeah, no, that's totally untrue. I don't know what kind of men you're hanging around that every single encounter with one has the threat of violence in the air, but I assure you, that's not normal. It's also neither inherent or innate, speaking as a man myself.

[Tyndmyr]

We dont want to talk about gendered violence, because i otherwise i could bring up rape statistics. And nobody wants to go there.

That wasn't part of her speech. It could have been, perhaps, but the writers chose to go with fear of violence, specifically murder.

And they chose to have her give that speech to Bruce, whom the audience knows has had to struggle with rage for a long time. It's a very awkward sort of explanation.

And, as mentioned by others, these are pretty universal fears/dislikes. If you have never had cause in your entire life to contemplate the possibility of violence, and change your words or actions to avoid it, you have had an unusually fortunate life. If you've never had some idiot explain the thing you do to you, you're very lucky.

It is not unreasonable for Jen to have experienced these things, but it's very odd for her to assume that they are exclusive to women, and that Bruce in particular has never encountered them. The show also comes up short in that it doesn't take the time to show us any of these threats. Telling is always less effective than showing, and the examples we see Jen face are quite trivial. This all contributes to this particular speech coming across as very odd or self absorbed.

PS: To the comment about men and holding tempers... I don't know if people know this but, unlike with women, every single confrontation between two men has a threat of violence behind it.

Not all of them, I think. It *can* happen, certainly, and I suspect that vast majority of people have had at least one such encounter, but I have certainly had disagreements that I was absolutely certain would not escalate to the physical.

Pretty much everyone has feared physical danger in their lives and learned to cope with that, but it's not omnipresent.

I hope you have a nice vacation and the injuries don't act up.

[GloatingSwine]

And they chose to have her give that speech to Bruce, whom the audience knows has had to struggle with rage for a long time. It's a very awkward sort of explanation.

Actually we kinda don't. We don't really know much about Bruce at all from the movies because of the rights spat preventing solo Hulk movies and him never getting any character development because of it.

We have, in fact, never seen Bruce struggle with anger, rage, or indeed any other hulk-provoking emotion other than fear, and that was fear of the Hulk. We haven't even seen him put in a position where he was made angry about anything except for the magic evil stick in Avengers 1 (and even then he was just suffering from elevated levels of sarcasm).

We extrapolate onto this version of Bruce properties from other versions of the character, but he doesn't actually demonstrate them at any point.

[Keltest]

And, as mentioned by others, these are pretty universal fears/dislikes.

I think thats kind of the point. Most people already have to restrain themselves from having a temper tantrum over every little thing or things will escalate out of control. Jen retains control because she has a normal, healthy level of control over her emotions learned over her lifetime, and Bruce does/did not.

In the comics at least, Bruce is a heavily damaged individual and it is absolutely Bruce that is wrong with the Hulk and not the other way around. Its entirely possible this was a rather clumsy attempt to allude to that given that they cant just have another Hulk movie or series to examine that.

[Cikomyr2]

I think thats kind of the point. Most people already have to restrain themselves from having a temper tantrum over every little thing or things will escalate out of control. Jen retains control because she has a normal, healthy level of control over her emotions learned over her lifetime, and Bruce does/did not.

In the comics at least, Bruce is a heavily damaged individual and it is absolutely Bruce that is wrong with the Hulk and not the other way around. Its entirely possible this was a rather clumsy attempt to allude to that given that they cant just have another Hulk movie or series to examine that.

Ironically, id argue a movie focused on Banner in a vacuum would be a disservice to his character study when we can have a series with another Hulk powered individual who highlights the degree by which Banner was initially unsuited to be Hulk and manage The Big Guy.

Doing a character study of Banner while at same time following more-adjusted Jen provides a good contrast about what is inherently Hulky, and whats not. It also provides a solid counterbeat to the main Jen storyline.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually we kinda don't. We don't really know much about Bruce at all from the movies because of the rights spat preventing solo Hulk movies and him never getting any character development because of it.

The 2008 Hulk film is part of the MCU. The rights thing does kind of suck, because a follow up solo film would have been nice, but we do have a decent basic Hulk story in that, and he most definitely has to deal with other threats, mostly the military.

In the comics at least, Bruce is a heavily damaged individual and it is absolutely Bruce that is wrong with the Hulk and not the other way around. Its entirely possible this was a rather clumsy attempt to allude to that given that they cant just have another Hulk movie or series to examine that.

Possibly, but that's a helluva character retcon to drop with no actual mention of it from the character himself. And it doesn't seem like the cousins are close enough to share everything, yknow? Friendly, but if he has to explain to her that he once spent years as the hulk, they probably aren't hanging out all that frequently.

We have gotten a lot of different Hulk snapshots, though, without really a coherent story for them. Professor Hulk happened off screen, and his resolution to his Infinity War issues with transforming also were resolved the same way. It is kind of messy to just not show any character growth on screen, but it is a recurring issue.

[GloatingSwine]

I think thats kind of the point. Most people already have to restrain themselves from having a temper tantrum over every little thing or things will escalate out of control. Jen retains control because she has a normal, healthy level of control over her emotions learned over her lifetime, and Bruce does/did not.

There are more lasting social consequences for women displaying anger or frustration in public than there are for men, and more sources of frustration which generate anger especially in professional environments. These are long documented and well known things to anyone who pays attention which it's a reasonable assumption that the writer of the show is writing with some level of experience.

[Cikomyr2]

There are more lasting social consequences for women displaying anger or frustration in public than there are for men, and more sources of frustration which generate anger especially in professional environments. These are long documented and well known things to anyone who pays attention which it's a reasonable assumption that the writer of the show is writing with some level of experience.

Better said than I ever would

[Keltest]

Possibly, but that's a helluva character retcon to drop with no actual mention of it from the character himself. And it doesn't seem like the cousins are close enough to share everything, yknow? Friendly, but if he has to explain to her that he once spent years as the hulk, they probably aren't hanging out all that frequently.

We have gotten a lot of different Hulk snapshots, though, without really a coherent story for them. Professor Hulk happened off screen, and his resolution to his Infinity War issues with transforming also were resolved the same way. It is kind of messy to just not show any character growth on screen, but it is a recurring issue.

Agreed, but when you cant actually make Hulk media directly, messy is about all you have to work with.

[GloatingSwine]

The 2008 Hulk film is part of the MCU. The rights thing does kind of suck, because a follow up solo film would have been nice, but we do have a decent basic Hulk story in that, and he most definitely has to deal with other threats, mostly the military.

Yeah, but again that's him dealing with being threatened from without, not him actually showing anger as an emotional response to something in the ordinary world (the military trying to shoot you is not part of the ordinary world). The Hulk just came out whenever he was out of total emotional equilibrium for any reason.

[Keltest]

Yeah, but again that's him dealing with being threatened from without, not him actually showing anger as an emotional response to something in the ordinary world (the military trying to shoot you is not part of the ordinary world). The Hulk just came out whenever he was out of total emotional equilibrium for any reason.

In the Avengers, the threat of Bruce hulking out due to the argument about SHIELD's motives is treated pretty seriously, and the fact that he didnt is treated as exceptional.

[GloatingSwine]

In the Avengers, the threat of Bruce hulking out due to the argument about SHIELD's motives is treated pretty seriously, and the fact that he didnt is treated as exceptional.

Yeah, and I mentioned that. But again that tells us nothing about Bruce's default mental state and how he deals with anger because the whole thing is being provoked by Loki's evil stick, so nobody present is in their normal mental state.

[Keltest]

Yeah, and I mentioned that. But again that tells us nothing about Bruce's default mental state and how he deals with anger because the whole thing is being provoked by Loki's evil stick, so nobody present is in their normal mental state.

By his own admission, his default mental state is "angry"

[GloatingSwine]

By his own admission, his default mental state is "angry"

The point is we never see that. We never see him having to practice any form of self control in response to any form of stimulus except in the Norton movie and that went too far in the other direction for stable characterisation and made it so that any stimulus that generated an elevated heart rate at all threatened to turn him into the Hulk.

[Cikomyr2]

The point is we never see that. We never see him having to practice any form of self control in response to any form of stimulus except in the Norton movie and that went too far in the other direction for stable characterisation and made it so that any stimulus that generated an elevated heart rate at all threatened to turn him into the Hulk.

I dont know about you, but i think is that Jennifer already knows "I'm always angry". Thats the point made on her journey toward controlling the Hulk form at will. She has her reason why. I dont think its meant to represent how every woman feels, its made to represent how Jennifer feels about it. Does it mean all women must feel the same? No. Does it mean some women probably do? Yes. Thats pretty much where you can stop inferring.

Bruce couldnt do it initially because of some deeper issues. Luckily for him he was still a genius scientist albeit less flashy than Stark. Thats how he got by.

[Trafalgar]

Men are murdered at a higher rate than women are. About four times higher.

Maybe in universe is different, but if so, it most definitely wasn't covered.

Men are are also far more likely to commit crime. Men are far more likely to commit violent crime. So its not surprising that men are more likely to be murdered.

Women are 2-3 times more likely to be murdered in the the workplace than men.
Women are far more likely to be murdered by men than men murdered by women.
Women are far more likely than men to be murdered by an intimate partner.

So a woman saying she is worried about being murdered should not be shocking to men.

[Cikomyr2]

Men are are also far more likely to commit crime. Men are far more likely to commit violent crime. So its not surprising that men are more likely to be murdered.

Women are 2-3 times more likely to be murdered in the the workplace than men.
Women are far more likely to be murdered by men than men murdered by women.
Women are far more likely than men to be murdered by an intimate partner.

So a woman saying she is worried about being murdered should not be shocking to men.

We can then talk about the comparative likelihood to be sexually assaulted or raped by a woman or a man.

Its not a good topic to argue when we are trying to discuss a Marvel series guys. Lets limit our discussion about perception and author intent, not universal statistical analysis of feminicides.