Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[Sapphire Guard]

Everything about Wakanda was made by a bunch of Americans anyway. Director? American? Writer? American? Lead actor? American. There's only a couple of exceptions in the main cast.

[Psyren]

Probably the easiest issue to address. Either they find a new population of the heart-shaped herb, or Shuri synthesizes the relevant compounds herself.

I'm pretty sure the latter happens in the comics, albeit with less positive results. (IIRC, Bast isn't too happy about the synthetic version and makes her feelings known.)

I find it a bit more dumb that a super advanced civilization determines its leader through primogeniture and ritual combat.

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle. Determining the head of state that way is ridiculous - you're pretty much guaranteeing that nobody from the Merchant Tribe or Border Tribe, regardless of qualifications, can lead, while also opening the door to completely unsuitable leaders who are great at fighting like... well, like Killmonger.

But with that said, they're hardly the first once-insular-nation to have a half-baked succession model. And if their system of government was perfect going in then there would be nowhere for them to go from there either.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I was kind of hoping that movie #2 would be Shuri (or whoever) going on a vision quest from Bast to get a new Heart-shaped Herb, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to be the case. I do like the idea of a temple servant stealing a few before they all got burned; surely not everyone in Wakanda is blindly obedient to the throne regardless of who sits on it.

[Trafalgar]

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle. Determining the head of state that way is ridiculous - you're pretty much guaranteeing that nobody from the Merchant Tribe or Border Tribe, regardless of qualifications, can lead, while also opening the door to completely unsuitable leaders who are great at fighting like... well, like Killmonger.

But with that said, they're hardly the first once-insular-nation to have a half-baked succession model. And if their system of government was perfect going in then there would be nowhere for them to go from there either.

The MCU seems to be against democracy in general. Look at Asgard. Odin was a bad king. Thor was a bad king. But Thor got to choose Valkyrie as the next ruler. No one in New Asgard was like "hold on, maybe we shouldn't allow a raging alcoholic to choose another raging alcoholic as the next leader. Let's have a meeting to discuss this instead of just accepting Thor's decision. Especially since Thor has made a lot of bad decisions lately."

Everyone in Asgard seemed pretty happy when Loki was pretending to be Odin. Maybe Loki would have been a better King than Thor, Odin, or Valkyrie.

[Kornaki]

Yeah - determining the Black Panther that way makes sense, because you ideally want someone who isn't just a badass because of the suit and the chemicals to wear that mantle.

You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.

[Trafalgar]

You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

[lord_khaine]

Everyone in Asgard seemed pretty happy when Loki was pretending to be Odin. Maybe Loki would have been a better King than Thor, Odin, or Valkyrie.

Its not impossible. We dont actually know what Loki wanted. Besides being in charge. He had gone through some character development in Thor 2 by then.

Though well. It made a bit of sense with Odin. And Thor. Even more so in the comics.
Both are Asgardian royal blood. And so literally gods some in uses of the word.
Their power dwarfs that of ordinary Asgardians by several orders of magnitude.

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

That is another valid point against the Wakandan selection process.

Hah.. its basically like they are a min-maxed Civilization nation. Gone directly for nuklear bombs.
having bypassed random unneeded things like the wheel or simulair on their way xD

In this case its then instead just cultural development sacrificed for anti-grav tech.

[MCerberus]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power (as the actual, and we have to remember, real, gods and ancestral spirits demand). Meanwhile the council forms the executive, as sort of weird combination of golden-era Venice and the Haudenosaunee.

Also, Bast is likely a shared god with the Egyptian pantheon does that make the Black Panther an avatar a la Moon Knight?

[Trafalgar]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power (as the actual, and we have to remember, real, gods and ancestral spirits demand). Meanwhile the council forms the executive, as sort of weird combination of golden-era Venice and the Haudenosaunee.

Well, Killmonger was able to radically and immediately alter Wakanda foreign policy in the first Black Panther movie.

[ecarden]

Well, Killmonger was able to radically and immediately alter Wakanda foreign policy in the first Black Panther movie.

Exactly. Once he's king, the only available option to stop him is rebellion and civil war. No one even suggests he doesn't have the authority to do basically whatever he wants.

[Androgeus]

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

Reminds me of my silly theory that Erskine’s serum was an artificial Heart Shaped Herb.

[Trafalgar]

Reminds me of my silly theory that Erskine’s serum was an artificial Heart Shaped Herb.

That's not too silly when compared to other things in Marvel. I mean the super soldier serum is activated by "Vita Rays" and the heart shaped herb has something to do with Vibranium ground water contamination. Maybe the heart shaped herb and the super soldier are chemically similar. Maybe Vibranium give off mild doses of vita rays. Maybe Eskine got the idea from experimenting with the Vibranium that went into Caps Shield. Who knows? At the end of the day, its magic, not real world science, so anything is possible.

[Psyren]

You need to justify this opinion. The chemicals and the suit fill all your badassery needs, the selection process should make sure they have other positive qualities the herb won't give them.

Of course, this is why Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers to for the super soldier serum over everyone else who were stronger.

Captain America (as Erskine envisioned the role) and Black Panther have very different job descriptions. The former is a symbol to inspire, the latter is a sword (or, if necessary, a dagger in the dark) to protect Wakandan interests outside her borders. That includes black ops missions and wetwork if necessary.

Erskine's selection criteria are noble, but they wouldn't have lasted two days outside that room if the serum formula hadn't been destroyed. Wakanda meanwhile never had such idealistic views of their guardian to begin with.

[MCerberus]

Exactly. Once he's king, the only available option to stop him is rebellion and civil war. No one even suggests he doesn't have the authority to do basically whatever he wants.

Yes, but in the scene he still appealed directly to the council and had members willing to go along with the plans. It's also likely the murders he was planning if they didn't go along wouldn't be legal exercising of executive power.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Does the ruling monarch of Wakanda have any actual executive power? Seems like if the whole thing is about ritual tradition having your head of state have no real power except to run around in a super suit with flower power

Being Black Panther isn’t guaranteed to come with being king. Witness Civil War, where T’Challa is running around as Black Panther before officially becoming king in Black Panther. Also in the latter, Killmonger specifies he’s challenging T’Challa for the mantles of king and Black Panther. If they were one and the same there would be no need to specify.

[ecarden]

Yes, but in the scene he still appealed directly to the council and had members willing to go along with the plans. It's also likely the murders he was planning if they didn't go along wouldn't be legal exercising of executive power.

I don't think so. He goes in, he gives orders, scene ends.

Being Black Panther isn’t guaranteed to come with being king. Witness Civil War, where T’Challa is running around as Black Panther before officially becoming king in Black Panther. Also in the latter, Killmonger specifies he’s challenging T’Challa for the mantles of king and Black Panther. If they were one and the same there would be no need to specify.

I believe this is correct, and it even makes sense, especially as a king ages and has to actually do various tasks involved with leading the nation.

[warty goblin]

I watched Black Panther in theaters twice, which is once more than every other MCU movie. So I quite liked it. But I quite liked it as a sort of fable or fairytail about kingship, understanding of what constitutes one's people and one's duty to those people. That it was sci-fi didn't really stop me seeing it that way, what with things like, you know, kings, and magic herbs and single combat. That it used this structure to explore some fairly sharp political commentary was, I thought, a testimony to the overall quality of the project. It also had some very solid directing, really excellent acting, and (at least the first 2/3 of it) were vital and exciting in a way I don't think the MCU had been before and definitely hasn't managed since, with the possible exception of Multiverse of Madness, and that for very different reasons.

What I didn't like about it was everything that wasn't that. In particular the more overtly superhero and MCU continuity stuff just weighed the rest of the film down. From the look of the trailer this is going to be another case of an ancient enemy we've somehow never heard of before showing up with a giant army of ineffective monster-dudes. We already have like a zillion MCU versions of that movie, and Aquaman already did that but with fish-dudes, I'm not getting excited for one more.

The MCU seems to be against democracy in general. Look at Asgard. Odin was a bad king. Thor was a bad king. But Thor got to choose Valkyrie as the next ruler. No one in New Asgard was like "hold on, maybe we shouldn't allow a raging alcoholic to choose another raging alcoholic as the next leader. Let's have a meeting to discuss this instead of just accepting Thor's decision. Especially since Thor has made a lot of bad decisions lately."

Well yeah, the entire thesis of democracy is that people have the same inherent worth and stake in life, so are entitled to equal voice in determining their nation's course. Structurally, thematically, and frequently as an outright plot point the thesis of the MCU is that about 40 people in the entire cosmos actually matter, everyone else only has worth insofar as a person with a goofy costume feels they do. Also that the only possible form of conflict resolution is punching.

[Mechalich]

Well yeah, the entire thesis of democracy is that people have the same inherent worth and stake in life, so are entitled to equal voice in determining their nation's course. Structurally, thematically, and frequently as an outright plot point the thesis of the MCU is that about 40 people in the entire cosmos actually matter, everyone else only has worth insofar as a person with a goofy costume feels they do. Also that the only possible form of conflict resolution is punching.

It's also something of a central thesis of state politics generally that the state has, if not an outright monopoly on the use of force, at the least an overwhelming superiority therein. High-powered superheroes violate this (DC actually does it worse than Marvel because it's most important heroes, such as Superman and the Flash, are generally more powerful than Marvel's big names). The ability of the state to control high-power entities such as Dr. Strange, the Hulk, Thor, etc. is very close to zero, especially in the absence of an organization like SHIELD (SHIELD, in the comics has long acted as a sort of pseudo-state with more force, via advanced technology not available to the public or even most militaries, than any other state on Earth and operating specifically to control the actions of supers).

Rather than operating on a state-based model, superhero universes with high-powered heroes operate in a mythic zone where the relevant characters are like deities, the low-powered heroes are quasi-divine beings like nymphs, and the ordinary humans are puny mortals. Mortals can matter, just as they are often highly significant in classical myths, but they do so through their relation to the deities, not through the direct impact of their actions. And, like the quarrels that occur atop Olympus, in these worlds all politics are personal. That doesn't mean that punching is the only means of conflict resolution, but the psychological and sociological data do agree that it should rise in frequency, a lot.