Is there any way to make a monk not suck?

[Adumbration]

What I mean is that is there any race/class/feat that prevent a monk from sucking?

I've been thinking about it myself: would Half-dragon paragon 3 / Monk X work? I think the breath weapon could make up for something, but is it worth taking 3 paragon levels?

[Azerian Kelimon]

FINALLY! A NEW MONK DEBATE THREAD! FEED THE BEAST! FEED IT!

That aside, yes, there's a way. Add 1 level of psion, get lots of Knowledge (the planes), be a Kobold, and let it rip.

[its_all_ogre]

not without houseruling some stuff, frankly.

[turkishproverb]

Sure. Don't play with powergamers.

[VerdugoExplode]

Half dragon is definitely not the way to go when improving a monk, especially considering the general debate as to whether the half dragon is even worth the level adjustment.

The best build for a decent unarmed combatant is monk 1/Swordsage 19. Otherwise you are shooting, er...punching yourself in the foot, whatever.

[Mr. Friendly]

I like Decisive Strike as a class sub.

If you wanna burn the feats, Improved Critical + Roundabout Kick can (sometimes) be cool. I know there is some feat that lets you add some ridiculous amount of acid damge, all the monks in my group were using it, but I forget what its called.

[Kurald Galain]

Sure. Play a Swordsage, and add some fluff to make it seem more monkish.

[Adumbration]

Well, I'm sorry, that I'm still a bit on the newbie side.

*sigh*

Just... Just forget about it. Pretend that I didn't ask.

[Fax Celestis]

Fist of Zuoken/Psionic Fist (depending on if you're looking at the SRD or at the XPH) makes it slightly more palatable. Going Monk/Fist of Zuoken/Illithid Slayer also has a lot of merit, though you lose out on a lot of what makes you a "monk."

Alternatively, mixing in some of those class-level stacking feats makes it more feasible too. Personally, I've been eyeballing a Lawful Good Paladin/Ninja/Monk with Ascetic Knight (CAdv, stacks Paladin and Monk levels for smites and unarmed strike progression), Ascetic Stalker (CScn, stacks Ninja and Monk levels for Ki Pool and Unarmed Strike), and Serenity (Dragon, I think, makes your Cha-based Paladin abilities Wis-based). It'd certainly be interesting to try out.

[elliott20]

the way to make a monk not suck? don't play one. or don't play with people who optimize their characters.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nah, we have to thank you. We were bored and didn't have much to do, and you've given us a week or more of debating. How could we forget that?

[PlatinumJester]

No but I have a way to get Gargantuan sized Unarmed Damage.

Goliath (large size for fists) + Permanent Enlarge Person (To get huge sized damage) + Improved Natural Attack (Gargantuan sized damage).

Now if you're playing an Unarmed Swordsage then get the the Stone Dragon Stance that makes you do damage at 1 sive larger so you do Fist damage at Collosal Size.

Then get Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks Belt. At level 9 you will do damage as a Level 18 Collosal Size Monk.
Now what's not to like about that?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

[Adumbration]

Ah, well, since we're already in the fray, can monks use gauntlets (say, with spikes) to increase their damage? Or does it not count as "unarmed" anymore?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes, they can...but they're not proficient with it. They're nerfed on purpose, I say!

[PlatinumJester]

Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

Ogre then.

[Craig1f]

Monks suck at combat compared to other combat classes, but they have a lot of positives.

-They have ridiculous listen and spot scores, because those are class skills and monks usually have very high wisdom scores.

-They're great at intercepting fleeing enemies, with their ridiculous land speed.

-They have high saves, making them harder to take down with Save or Die spells.

-They're the best to have in a prison-escape situation.

-Trip and stunning fist can be very useful.

-With high tumble scores, they can move to where they need to be quickly.

Monks are nice as long as they're not the primary melee combatant. However, they do have a lot of shortcomings against a lot of things. But so does everyone else.

[Adumbration]

You know, I just had the funniest mental image of a dragon with boxing gloves.

Dragons with monk levels.... >.<

[Azerian Kelimon]

And they can diplocheese. Never forget their greatest feature!

[lord_khaine]

can monks use gauntlets (say, with spikes) to increase their damage? Or does it not count as "unarmed" anymore

if you spend a feat on simple weapon proficiency you can use gauntlets, and that goes a long way towards improving your monk.

besides that their is a feat from secrets of sarlona, that allows your monk levels to stack with levels in a psionic class, for the purpose of determening unarmede damage and flurry (it might do more, dont have the book with me atm)

[Fax Celestis]

Powerful build doesn't work that way. YOU aren't a size cathegory larger, so your fists aren't. Unless this is one of those "RAW starts being so stupid it's not funny" situation.

It's also better to you a psionic Expansion, which gets you to huge, and use a psionic Permanence to be permanently huge sized. Collossal+ damage, here we come!

Actually, it does.

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Unarmed strike damage is modified by size, and is altered by powerful build according to the bolded part above.

[Kurald Galain]

-They're great at intercepting fleeing enemies, with their ridiculous land speed.

In other words, they start to shine when the party has already won the battle. That about sums it up

[Azerian Kelimon]

Niiiiiiiiiice. This means:

Large fists by default + 1 increment from imp. nat. attack + 2 from uncarnate augmented expansion + stone dragons stance = colossal+ right there. Any way to get to Colossal++ or higher?

[Attilargh]

And they can diplocheese. Never forget their greatest feature!

In which they are outclassed by the Aristocrat. Not entirely unlike many other fields of expertise, such as, say, combat.

[Snadgeros]

ANOTHER monk thread? Aw hell, here we go again. I still stand by the fact that the monk does not suck. However, he is commonly viewed this way because his abilities are so spread out that he doesn't really fill any common role. Among the things he has going for him are fantastic saves, incredible movement, high AC (without armor too!), very few things he neds to buy, flurry of blows (I'll talk about that in a minute), and a bunch of cool fluff stuff like immunity to poison. However, he is deemed useless by many because he doesn't do other stuff as well as other characters. He can fight, but not as well as a fighter. He has skills, but not as many as a rogue. The problem with the monk is that he's unspecialized, but as such, can make a decent 5th man if you already have the other roles filled (he'd act as a Plan B).

If you want a quick homebrew fix, make flurry of blows a standard action. Right there, he's instantly awesome. Maybe also full BAB if you really want to. Then just take spring attack and voila! You've got a combat role: hit and run! Combined with mobility, dodge, a monk's high movement and ranks in tumble, he'll get around any battlefield pummeling the crap out of anyone he passes.

On another note: I'm currently playing a monk/drunken master and it works great. Since the drunken master adds extra damage onto his unarmed damage (something the monk has plenty of) I'm quickly becoming a damage-dealing monstrosity (not on the level of a wizard, but at least a fighter). Not to mention all of the cool improvised weapon stuff (10-foot reach weapon ladders? Yes please!)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not filling any common role EQUALS sucking, for most.

[ZeroNumerous]

Greater Mighty Wallop. +1 Size Category per 4 levels of a bludgeoning weapon.

LA+1/Monk 1/Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Full Casting PRC 2.

Powerful Build: Large
Improved Natural Attack: Huge
Expansion: Gargantuan, Colossal
Stone Dragon Stance: Dimunative+
Greater Mighty Wallop: Tiny+, Small+, and Medium+

EDIT: Also - Making Monks Not Suck.

EDIT#2: Oops, forgot to note that you should take Expanded Knowledge(Expansion) for your Psion.

[Dode]

awesome not-sucking monk builds

Monk1/Wizard12/Archmage5/Wizard2

Monk1/Cleric5/RSoP10/Cleric4

[Draz74]

Well, I'm sorry, that I'm still a bit on the newbie side.
*sigh*
Just... Just forget about it. Pretend that I didn't ask.

Sorry for the rude responses ...

Alternatively, mixing in some of those class-level stacking feats makes it more feasible too. Personally, I've been eyeballing a Lawful Good Paladin/Ninja/Monk with Ascetic Knight (CAdv, stacks Paladin and Monk levels for smites and unarmed strike progression), Ascetic Stalker (CScn, stacks Ninja and Monk levels for Ki Pool and Unarmed Strike), and Serenity (Dragon, I think, makes your Cha-based Paladin abilities Wis-based). It'd certainly be interesting to try out.

I like this!

Goliath (large size for fists) + Permanent Enlarge Person (To get huge sized damage) + Improved Natural Attack (Gargantuan sized damage).

Enlarge Person doesn't work on Goliaths. Nor Ogres.

Yes, they can...but they're not proficient with it. They're nerfed on purpose, I say!

Technically, they're no more proficient with unarmed strikes than with gauntlets. Personally, since this needs to be houseruled anyway, I don't like the image of Monks wearing gauntlets, so I'd prefer to allow them to "enchant" their fists via magic bracers or something.

You know, I just had the funniest mental image of a dragon with boxing gloves.

Dragons with monk levels.... >.<

He'd have to be pretty high level before his Monk unarmed attacks would do more damage than his normal claw/bite/tail/wing natural attacks. Could be an interesting monster concept, though.

Actually, it does.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

Unarmed strike damage is modified by size, and is altered by powerful build according to the bolded part above.

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous interpretation of Powerful Build's text. The subject of unarmed strike damage is totally out of line with the examples given, like grapple/trip/bull rush modifiers. Besides, the term "modifier" is defined a little more precisely than that:

Modifiers

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

I don't think the amount and kind of dice that are rolled for an unarmed attack qualifies. Powerful Build doesn't improve unarmed strike damage (although it would make sense as a houserule ... but Goliaths really don't need the help).

If you want a quick homebrew fix, make flurry of blows a standard action. Right there, he's instantly awesome. Maybe also full BAB if you really want to.

I don't agree with much of what Snadgeros said, at least not in a campaign where people optimize more. (It could all be very true in his campaign.) But these are indeed two easy fixes that go a long way toward making the Monk much more powerful. Although personally I find the Full BAB Fix very unaesthetic, as it turns the Monk into something he's not, in my book. But I wholeheartedly recommend the Flurry fix.

Not filling any common role EQUALS sucking, for most.

True ... unless your party finds creative ways to work together and to work around the lack of certain roles in itself.

[ZeroNumerous]

Monk1/Wizard12/Archmage5/Wizard2

Try.. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 with a Monk's Belt and Cardemine Monk. That makes a Monk that doesn't suck.