OOTS #1263 - The Discussion Thread

[Souhiro]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not


Yet... I would find it pretty much in character for RC!

"There's an awful lot of evil wherever I go"
"Redcloak, maybe it's your fault, being awfuly evil?"
"My fault? NEVEEEEEEER!"

[Fyraltari]

all the more reason why Redcloak could know something Xykon doesnt

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Redclaok discovered something since then, but, to my knowledge, it's never been hinted that he's done any further research into lichdom since the second diner scene.

thats a significant amount of effort for something like that

We are talking about a guy willing to sacrifice the entire planet just to be "in the right". I feel like this amount of effort to be able to tell himself he's still in control isn't absurd.

Is it just me or is MitD getting smarter? He smoothly steered everyone past potential discovery of his antics there.

MitD was never actually dumb. Just willing to let everybody else think for him.

[Frozenstep]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks
But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes?

Might have something to do with just being a Lich, a naturally magical and powerful undead creature. Might just be one of those supernatural quirks not listed in the monster manual, like liches not being able to taste.

[Forikroder]

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Redclaok discovered something since then, but, to my knowledge, it's never been hinted that he's done any further research into lichdom since the second diner scene.

its entirely possible he knew something in that scene too and just knew it wasnt the right time to pull it out

We are talking about a guy willing to sacrifice the entire planet just to be "in the right". I feel like this amount of effort to be able to tell himself he's still in control isn't absurd.

why should he care about a planet that he percieves as having been designed to make his people suffer?

[Rinazina]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks
But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes?

maybe the Crimson Mantle gives non-detect?
but for sure Xykon evil lingering effect have been also explored when Miko scanned Roy as Evil because of that, so I guess it was just simpler as exposure. A 18+ Level cleric might have so many divination spell, I just believe this was the simplest explanation for the plot.

[Resileaf]

it is my theory too, but look at GrumpyDoggo in panel 1, might he have spotted something with that frowned face?

Greyview always has a frowny face.

[Pablo360]

I think everyone’s ignoring the really important point about the newest page:

Since Xykon is a lich, and therefore not alive, his art should be selling like wildfire through an army of ents guarding a gate over a crack in reality.

[Fyraltari]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not


Yet... I would find it pretty much in character for RC!

"There's an awful lot of evil wherever I go"
"Redcloak, maybe it's your fault, being awfuly evil?"
"My fault? NEVEEEEEEER!"

I don't think it's about supernatural effects at all. Xykon goes out of his way to be as Evil as possible and has done sonfor more than a century. Redcloak's just not that horrible.

its entirely possible he knew something in that scene too and just knew it wasnt the right time to pull it out

Then why threaten to do it?
[SoD]That was the moment Xykon took over their team, he almost killed Redcloak's brother and all Redcloak could do to save both of them was saying that killing them would mean Xykon lost his sense of taste for nothing. What would have been the point of a double-bluff?[/spoiler]

why should he care about a planet that he percieves as having been designed to make his people suffer?

Because his people is on it?

[Forikroder]

I don't think it's about supernatural effects at all. Xykon goes out of his way to be as Evil as possible and has done sonfor more than a century. Redcloak's just not that horrible.

Then why threaten to do it?

because of the certain actions Xykon was in the process of performing, threatening it was enough to make Xykon stop, and since Xykon percieved redcloak as haviing "backed down" it only cemented his bbelief that such a spell doesnt exist

Because his people is on it?

give me liberty or give me death, he doesnt percieve their current situation as one thats worth accepting, even if he gets all current goblins killed thats nothing compared to the infinite number of future goblins who will live good long fulfilling lives thanks to him

the current goblins seem willing to die to fight for a better future too

[Souhiro]

We are talking about a guy willing to sacrifice the entire planet just to be "in the right". I feel like this amount of effort to be able to tell himself he's still in control isn't absurd.

why should he care about a planet that he percieves as having been designed to make his people suffer?

Because everybody he loves, and everybody he once loved is still in this planet. And even then, Right-Eye's town and Gobbotopia weren't bad places for his people to live.
Durkon even offered him a way to solve everything "Keep Gobbotopia, we will accept your people as equals, and you help us to save this world. Everybody lives, and everybody wins" yet he tried to kill our Durkon.

So, Attacking Durkon all RC got was:

Best Scenario: The Order of the Stick manages to save the world, and do it without Redcloak cooperation (And then, after Redcloak's antics, they would have all the reasons to start casting Familicide on 50% of goblin population!)
Worst Scenario: The Snarls releases itself. It's the oblivion for every living soul. And since The Dark One would starve to death as a fletching god, it would be oblivion for all those goblin's dead souls (The deities claims that they manage to save the souls in case of planetary destruction)

[Forikroder]

Because everybody he loves, and everybody he once loved is still in this planet. And even then, Right-Eye's town and Gobbotopia weren't bad places for his people to live.

not bad places, but right eyes town was at best acceptable, and gobbtopia would have fallen months ago without Xykon and the plan keeping everyone busy

Durkon even offered him a way to solve everything "Keep Gobbotopia, we will accept your people as equals, and you help us to save this world. Everybody lives, and everybody wins" yet he tried to kill our Durkon.

first of all, Durkon didnt offer him a way to solve anything, he only promised to try and talk to the azurites and convince one of their weakest enemies to no longer try to take back their city, that solves literally nothing, and Durkon had literally no evidence that anything he said was true

his goal is equality, Durkon at most offered him a truce

Best Scenario: The Order of the Stick manages to save the world, and do it without Redcloak cooperation (And then, after Redcloak's antics, they would have all the reasons to start casting Familicide on 50% of goblin population!)
Worst Scenario: The Snarls releases itself. It's the oblivion for every living soul. And since The Dark One would starve to death as a fletching god, it would be oblivion for all those goblin's dead souls (The deities claims that they manage to save the souls in case of planetary destruction)

redcloak has no reason to think that TDO can actually starve to death, if redcloak believes Durkon then no matter what the people of that world will be forced to eventually offer Goblins the olive branch to save their own skins, so he can piss them off as much as he wants and only accept it once its the most convenient for him, and even if the world gets destroyed he thinks that just puts TDO in a position to win anyway

Redcloak refuses to accept the opression of his people and will only listen to a plan that offers a guarantee that the gods themselves will assure that it ends, Durkon couldnt even assure that mortals will be willing to stop the oppression

[Charity322]

Redcloak: *serious motivational speech*
Third panel: He sees what he's got to work with.

[Blatt]

I believe both humans and goblins are medium-sized in OOTS, and as far back as I could find, they don't seem any more appreciably different in height than they do now.

Do we know Xykon was once human? Difficult to tell from just a skeleton.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Do we know Xykon was once human? Difficult to tell from just a skeleton.

Yes. Because we've even seen him as a human, people have discussed the fact he used to be human, it's confirmed that he used to be human.

[Blatt]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not


Yet... I would find it pretty much in character for RC!

"There's an awful lot of evil wherever I go"
"Redcloak, maybe it's your fault, being awfuly evil?"
"My fault? NEVEEEEEEER!"

People can't detect their own evil. It's like not smel... er... er... you know...

[Kareeah_Indaga]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not

Given the context (checking where they’ve been and checking to see if Xykon has been in a room for secrecy purposes), Redcloak leaving a trail doesn’t matter much for the doors, since they’ve been exploring them as a group it’s going to be the same trail or near enough for their purposes. For checking a room for Xykon’s presence, as long as no one else in Team Evil is leaving a trail, Redcloak will know where he himself has been and can save his spell slots for when he’s either checking a room he hasn’t ever been in, or a room he hasn’t been in for long enough for his personal trail to have faded.

[The MunchKING]

I think everyone’s ignoring the really important point about the newest page:

Since Xykon is a lich, and therefore not alive, his art should be selling like wildfire through an army of ents guarding a gate over a crack in reality.

That's literally the punchline in the final panel.

[The MunchKING]

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Redclaok discovered something since then, but, to my knowledge, it's never been hinted that he's done any further research into lichdom since the second diner scene.

He IS a Cleric, and Knowledge: Religion is the one that covers undead. So if he was going to be a nerd about any topic, Knowledge: Religion would probably be it.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder what Redcloak was trying to say with “Next, I have a spell –”. I first assumed Arcane Mark first, since that's such a cheap spell that they should have used it as a precaution instead of just painting. But it turns out that clerics can't cast that, nor do they seem to have a cheap alternative, so that's Xykon's spell, not Redcloak's.

Update: Also it turns out that as a sorcerer, Xykon can probably only learn 9 0th level spells, so he might not even know Arcane Mark.

They don't? I was kind of under the impression they did from that strip. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html

(Using my cellphone, right now.)

[Ravus]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not


Yet... I would find it pretty much in character for RC!

"There's an awful lot of evil wherever I go"
"Redcloak, maybe it's your fault, being awfuly evil?"
"My fault? NEVEEEEEEER!"

You're right that Redcloak should have an even stronger area than Xykon, but keep in mind that by RAW, that use of Detect Evil does not work on a "simple" overwhelming aura. Auras linger on destroyed creatures, not on the places they have visited. So if Xykon were destroyed or Redcloak killed, their remains would still be faintly evil for a few days.

It's been established (via the crown plot point) that Xykon has an evil aura so strong that it "rubs off" on items and places, which seems to be a trait unique to him.

[Breccia]

Well, Xykon's crown made Roy read as Evil weeks later, so this shouldn't be a surprise, I guess.

I agree, and I do like the idea of "lingering evil" from horrifying monsters like it was radiation.

An H. R. Giger counter, if you will.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I don't think that was referring to spellcasting, just a basic "mark your food with your name" sort of thing. If it were a spell being cast it would be capitalized.

Pedantic, I know, but it's the little things that matter sometimes.

That being said, I don't think he meant Arcane Mark anyhow; it sounds like Redcloak is about to employ a spell to speed up searching, not to make more reliable marks.

[The MunchKING]

They don't? I was kind of under the impression they did from that strip. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html

That's not magic, I think, that's inscribing it the old fashioned way.

I agree, and I do like the idea of "lingering evil" from horrifying monsters like it was radiation.

An H. R. Giger counter, if you will.

Does it also work for Good? "lingering good" hanging around just causally making the place a little nicer like a benevolent radiation?

[Ionathus]

Best Scenario: The Order of the Stick manages to save the world, and do it without Redcloak cooperation (And then, after Redcloak's antics, they would have all the reasons to start casting Familicide on 50% of goblin population!)

I want to say that, being the good guys, they probably won't commit genocide just for the sake of revenge after they'd already won.

But then again, V did it last time

But then again again, hopefully they've learned their lesson

The Dark One would starve to death as a fletching god

Oh man, the goblins even get screwed out of the cool divine patronages! I assume Smithing God was already taken and this was the next best thing?

[Nomen]

Yeah, Xykon's reaction here reminds me of his reaction to finding out that Redcloak killed Tsusiko over the ritual. I'm pretty sure that he is connecting the dots here and figured out that something is up, although he may not know exactly what.

I think he knows something is up, but so long as he doesn't know the specifics and its not enough to make him turn Redcloak is proberly cool with that.

[Doug Lampert]

I don’t know I’m trying to justify why he had it prepared this particular day instead of another cure/harm spell.

He can spontaneously convert anything into another inflict spell, and detect evil can be very useful for evil dungeon delvers since evil is not all one big happy family and IME evil dungeon delvers consider evil dungeon dwellers fair game.

It has been established earlier in the comic that Xykon does leave a lot more evil aura than the rules suggest, with his crown and Miko's detect evil (which even detected the carrier of the crown as evil instead of detecting the crown itself as evil)

You don't detect ANYTHING as evil except the aura, and there's nothing that says the aura is localized better than "that 5' space over there that Roy is standing in".

Now, lingering should be a dim aura, and since lingering is the only source of dim auras Miko should have spotted the problem (she doesn't get locations till she also gets strengths), but that's minor.

[Shining Wrath]

Again, Xykon knows more than he lets on. And MitD is smarter than he lets on.

[Lord Torath]

fledgeling... fletching... Same thing, right?

[Shining Wrath]

Ooooo good observation.



Hooray for long-previously-established in-strip justification!



Well, we know Redcloak is covering for something, and MITD may have a pretty good Sense Motive.



Probably even most "Always Evil" creatures have a hard time radiating as much Evil as Xykon.

I would think powerful Fiends and Demigods / Abominations might match Xykon.

[Jasdoif]

There's something ODD.

So, Redcloak is using "Detect Evil", and since Xykon is an epic level undead, he has an overwhelming aura that lingers for weeks for days

But since the very same Redcloak is a cleric, and a very hight level one (With an evil artifact, too) wouldn't he leave a trail of overwhelming evil wherever he goes, too? He shouldn't be able to discern if Xykon frecuents a place or not

Depends on whether Redcloak frequents the same place or not, something he has some control over. If he deliberately stays out of his study for a week (or more) beforehand, such an aura he detects in there would almost certainly be from Xykon.

The Dark One would starve to death as a fletching god

Oh man, the goblins even get screwed out of the cool divine patronages! I assume Smithing God was already taken and this was the next best thing?

Behind every archery god is a fletching god. Or maybe beside every archery god? Sometimes I worry that they're beside themselves....