OOTS #1263 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Rich has ignored RAW so much I'm convinced he's never had sushi in his life.

[Peelee]

Taken a look at this they only seem to apply to thirst not to starvation so my comment above to say that most creatures cannot die of starvation seems to still stand as correct.

It appears as if one is unconscious (say, due to starvation), they cannot drink and fall subject to the dehydration rules.

Sure, you can try to play the semantics game from there but it's like saying "its not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end". Yes, you're technically correct, you deserve a cookie for being so terribly clever, and everyone else will roll their eyes and continue to know that falling kills you.

Rich has ignored RAW so much I'm convinced he's never had sushi in his life.

I love this line.

[dancrilis]

Rich has ignored RAW so much I'm convinced he's never had sushi in his life.

I am not sure he has that frequently really - he does ignore them when he wants to but does still bind himself to the framework for most things as near as I can tell.

His off-panel fight between the Order and Miko shows he does think about how things would work and be reasonable, if he finds the rules constraining him I imagine he would decide whether it was a good constraint and think past it or if it was an annoying constraint to be ignored - for the starvation rules I suspect it would depend on if he was using them for comedy or drama, if the first he might keep them if the latter he might ignore them.

It appears as if one is unconscious (say, due to starvation), they cannot drink and fall subject to the dehydration rules.

Sure, you can try to play the semantics game from there but it's like saying "its not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end".

If you need to transport unconsious party members without the means of feeding them but with the means of watering them you could keep them alive for a long time (natural lifespan seemingly) or if you want to keep hostages helpless but alive then you could force them to drink but not eat.

Forcing people to drink (or eat) when unconsious is needed to wake them up if they pass out from thirst or starvation after all.

Yes, you're technically correct

The best kind of correct.

[Provengreil]

I am not sure he has that frequently really - he does ignore them when he wants to but does still bind himself to the framework for most things as near as I can tell.

His off-panel fight between the Order and Miko shows he does think about how things would work and be reasonable, if he finds the rules constraining him I imagine he would decide whether it was a good constraint and think past it or if it was an annoying constraint to be ignored - for the starvation rules I suspect it would depend on if he was using them for comedy or drama, if the first he might keep them if the latter he might ignore them.

Rich has been pretty careful to stick to the RAW framework. One-time breaks are obvious due to rules of cool or funny, and often lampshaded quickly (such as control weather killing the ents). Even when the framework gets in the way, he usually writes around it rather than ignore it, because those rules give the audience a grounding as to what we can expect to be reasonable, or possible. What's tough, what's easy.

However, in the cases of drowning or starving, I think we can expect more reasonable real life consequences. It'll just serve the story better.

He's been told, but he thinks that the claim is unlikely to be true. And he's willing to take that chance. The worst outcome that he conceives as being plausible -- this world is destroyed; the next world will be a better place for goblinoids -- is acceptable to him. The claim that TDO may not make it to the next world isn't plausible to him.

This is an important fact to remember. Redcloak's own counterargument was that the laws and rules that govern the existence and creation of worlds and gods just happening to align with the current motives of his enemies is utter BS. It's not an unthinkable position given that he''s only informed of this from those same enemies.

I really don't think that's possible. Xykon has no access to the divine part of the ritual, so he can't account for what that does in his hypothetical modifications. And more importantly, the reason Tsukiko sussed out that the Ritual doesn't do what it is advertised as doing is that it's not even in the right School of magic for that.

Xykon would have an easier time making his own ritual from scratch.

Xykon would be better served abandoning the whole scheme at that point. As much as we remind ourselves that he's smarter than he looks, he's simply not book smart and not going to get book smart. Even customized epic magic will serve up minimal benefits when he has only a hazy definition of what he's trying to do.

[brian 333]

That explains why we kept finding people in the wilderness unconscious but clinging to life. NPCs, questgivers, and replacements for dead PCs could all be found somewhere, almost, but not quite dead.

I often wondered why random monsters, of which there was an unending supply, did not simply eat the mostly dead characters, but now I know: if they are unconscious due to starvation they cannot die. It's all so clear now.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Xykon would be better served abandoning the whole scheme at that point. As much as we remind ourselves that he's smarter than he looks, he's simply not book smart and not going to get book smart. Even customized epic magic will serve up minimal benefits when he has only a hazy definition of what he's trying to do.

I wouldn't be exactly surprised if we find out Xykon was trying to subvert or otherwise work around the ritual because he suspected it didn't do what he was told it would do, but I do think this is an important point to remember. Xykon, as a character, is far more likely to Meteor Swarm Redcloak in the face than he is to pull an elaborate double-cross. He's more of a front-cross kind of guy.

[JT]

Is Greyview noticing the runes in that first panel? Maybe spotted the smudge?

I'm gonna guess/predict that Greyview has noticed the scent of the OOTS party disappearing when they entered the dungeon (and switched over), and now that it has come back as they are exiting (and switching back).

[KorvinStarmast]

Rich has ignored RAW so much I'm convinced he's never had sushi in his life.

Aka bait-on-a-plate.

[Nomen]

Unless Xycon really has nothing better to do I don't think he would drag Redcloak along just to last minute go psyche I went all this way and am now going to kill you instead by the way I poisoned Gobbopia or whatever.
He is capable of of doing the first one but I think he wouldn't get enough out of it to be worth it.
I don't think he has the know how to change the ritual to one he wants either.
I suspect once he realizes what it does he's going to turn on Redcloak fast.
Xycon might plan to not do his side once he controls the gate, but thats not going to matter.
Redcloak's plan will lead to Xycon killing him and even odds destroying Gobbopia. He just thinks it will be a small sacrifice for equality for goblins.

[Fyraltari]

Unless Xycon really has nothing better to do

He really hasn't. The man has no cause but his own twisted amusement and he's got all the time in the world.

[Jason]

The Rules Compendium updated the Starvation and Thirst rules as follows:

A creature that falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to starvation or thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead. Damage from starvation and thirst can't be healed, even magically, until the creature has been treated properly.

There's more, for instance the rule that you can treat dehydration with a heal spell, but not starvation.
There is also a note from the editor that these rules supersede the rules in Sandstorm, because those rules required 6 separate checks for dehydration, heat, sunstroke, and sunburn at varying intervals of time and weren't really compatible with the DMG rules on heat.

So yes, according to the RAW you can starve to death. At least, RAW as of the Rules Compendium.

[alceryes]

Any guesses on what the other spell is that RC mentions before he's interupted in panel 10?

[Provengreil]

Any guesses on what the other spell is that RC mentions before he's interupted in panel 10?

Couldn't say, but I'd be interested to find out. Presumably it's something that would help them confirm previously visited dungeons though, otherwise he'd have used it when they first got there.

Unless Xycon really has nothing better to do I don't think he would drag Redcloak along just to last minute go psyche I went all this way and am now going to kill you instead by the way I poisoned Gobbopia or whatever.
He is capable of of doing the first one but I think he wouldn't get enough out of it to be worth it.
I don't think he has the know how to change the ritual to one he wants either.
I suspect once he realizes what it does he's going to turn on Redcloak fast.
Xycon might plan to not do his side once he controls the gate, but thats not going to matter.
Redcloak's plan will lead to Xycon killing him and even odds destroying Gobbopia. He just thinks it will be a small sacrifice for equality for goblins.

There's no way Xykon knows what the ritual actually does. He sent Tsukiko after it and she got murdered by RC, so he already suspected and basically confirmed that something is not on the level there: RC's lie about Tsukiko did kind of hold water but was not terribly convincing. Also, see my previous post. Also also, if he knew, that's "Betray RC within 6 hours" level information, since he can't just rework the ritual and would have no reason to continue working with him.

[brian 333]

Unless he was bored, had nothing better to do, or thought he could turn the situation to his advantage.

I keep seeing posts that insist Xykon is dumb and has no skill in Spellcraft. This is the guy who built an Astral Plane fortress. He's lazy, but he has shown repeatedly that he is far from dumb. Spellcraft is a class skill for sorcerers, and Xykon appears to have taken few fluff skills, (other than Drawing, (Line Sketch.)) Since Spellcraft offers synergy bonuses to several spells, and since Xykon is all about power, it would make sense that he stacks every bonus possible. For him Spellcraft is easy. (A min-maxer could have 23 ranks in Spellcraft by level 20, not including feat and Int bonuses.)

I don't think he needed Tsukiko to discover what his half of the ritual does. I think he needed her to discover what Redcloak's half does. Instead, he confirmed what he already believed: that Redcloak was lying to him about the Ritual.

If there was going to be any retribution for that, it should have come back then. It didn't. That tells me that Xykon is working another plan, and he still finds Redcloak more beneficial to have around than not.

[The MunchKING]

Unless he was bored, had nothing better to do, or thought he could turn the situation to his advantage.

I keep seeing posts that insist Xykon is dumb and has no skill in Spellcraft.

He can't be that dumb, and he definitely can't have no Spellcraft ranks if he can cast Epic Magic. You need at least 23 ranks in Spellcraft and one of the Knowledge skills (usually Arcana for sorcs) to take the Epic Casting feat.

[Larsaan]

Imagine if Xykon did figure out what the ritual did... and instead of immediately taking revenge on Redcloak, he altered the ritual to send the Snarl directly into TDO's realm.

[dancrilis]

Also also, if he knew, that's "Betray RC within 6 hours" level information, since he can't just rework the ritual and would have no reason to continue working with him.

I think you are making an assumption there - Xykon could rework his half of the ritual which controls the teleportation element.

Redcloak's half directs who controls the location of that Gate, Xykon's half controls actually moving the Gate - it is fully reasonable that Xykon might link those two together and send the Gate to whoever controls it.

You need at least 23 ranks in Spellcraft and one of the Knowledge skills (usually Arcana for sorcs) to take the Epic Casting feat.

24 Ranks - you need to be Epic.

Imagine if Xykon did figure out what the ritual did... and instead of immediately taking revenge on Redcloak, he altered the ritual to send the Snarl directly into TDO's realm.

This would be my long standing theory/delusion/wild guess/etc.

[brian 333]

I think you are making an assumption there - Xykon could rework his half of the ritual which controls the teleportation element.

Redcloak's half directs who controls the location of that Gate, Xykon's half controls actually moving the Gate - it is fully reasonable that Xykon might link those two together and send the Gate to whoever controls it.


24 Ranks - you need to be Epic.


This would be my long standing theory/delusion/wild guess/etc.

Is there in-comic support for this or is it FanTheory #372? I don't recall exactly what Tsukiko said, but so far as I do recall she didn't say what the ritual did, but that it didn't do what Redcloak said it did.

[dancrilis]

Is there in-comic support for this or is it FanTheory #372? I don't recall exactly what Tsukiko said, but so far as I do recall she didn't say what the ritual did, but that it didn't do what Redcloak said it did.

Panel 11 and panels 1 and 2 (also see panels 9, 10 and 11 from that strip).

Taken together the arcane half seems to be for moving the gate (and rift) and the divine half is about linking such movement to Redcloak's deity.

My pet theory is that Xykon has determined that the cloak created by the Dark One for his high priest functions to give the Dark One power not to give some random arcane caster power - and so Xykon is planning to subvert that and kill something he never has killed before all with the help of that deity's most devote follower.

Why would he do this, I will refer to the below:

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

How often do you get the chance to do something like that?
It is likely worth a mere few decades of dedication to pull off.

[KorvinStarmast]

Imagine if Xykon did figure out what the ritual did... and instead of immediately taking revenge on Redcloak, he altered the ritual to send the Snarl directly into TDO's realm.

That would be great. But I don't think it will happen.

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

You don't put gravy on steak, amigo. Let's try a metaphor that will not violate all taste buds in the universe:
Killing a god is a perfectly baked potato smothered in butter; rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is sour cream and chives, doing it after that high priest facilitated you doing it is bacon chunks, and doing it while that high priest things he was fooling you is a bit of sea salt and melted brie (or cheddar) to make it perfect.
Or
Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is raw, fresh horseradish; doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is a home made vanilla ice cream dessert, and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is the hot fudge (or caramel) sauce with walnut chunks on the ice cream.

For the sake of all taste buds.

[Peelee]

You don't put gravy on steak, amigo.

Sounds like someone has never had chicken fried steak with white gravy.

[bunsen_h]

Xykon appears to have taken few fluff skills, (other than Drawing, (Line Sketch.))

In this world, that counts as photorealistic fine art. It's not trivial to master.

doing it while that high priest things he was fooling you is a bit of sea salt and melted brie (or cheddar) to make it perfect.

Not smoked gouda?

[Doug Lampert]

Man I don’t know what it is but that forum elemental comment gave me the biggest laugh I’ve had in months. Thanks. I need to stat that now

Forum Elemental, Small
Size/Type: Small Elemental
Hit Dice: 2d8-2 (7 HP)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (+1 size, -1 Dex), touch 10, flat footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Slam +0 melee (1d6-1)
Full Attack: Slam +0 melee (1d6-1)
Space Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Troll
Special Qualities: Pointlessly Pedantic, Darkvision 60'; Immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning; Not subject to critical hits, flanking, or common sense; Unlike other elementals, a forum elemental does need to eat and breathe, but does not require sleep instead requiring a caffeinated beverage at least once every 4 hours or it collapses from caffeine withdraw; spell checker resistance/10.
Saves: Fort +2, Ref -1, Will +4
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 9, Con 8, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 1
Skills: Listen -1, Spot -1, Craft Disturbing Mental Image +2, Knowledge Star Wars Trivia +5
Feats: Iron Will, Skill Focus (Craft Disturbing Mental Image)^B, Skill Focus (Knowledge Star Wars Trivia)^B
Environment: Mother's Basement
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (small)
Level Adjustment: +0

Troll (Su): The forum elemental may summon a single troll for one round once per year. The troll roars pointlessly as its only action, and then is banished by a moderator. If the elemental attempts to use this power again, then the elemental is temporarily banished to its home plane (as a banishment spell, but the elemental may not return to the plane it is banished from by any means except the Sock Puppet power for at least one year).

Pointlessly Pedantic (Ex): The forum elemental may argue incessantly over just what this ability does and whether or not it should be listed as an ability.

Before Stormwrack by RAW you could heal by starting to drown.

Yes, this is as stupid as it sounds.

Fortunately, there was no way to stop drowning. Once the process started it stated what happened on each of three rounds, and then you died. So for one brief shinning moment you returned to 0 HP if you'd been worse off than that, then you died anyway.

That explains why we kept finding people in the wilderness unconscious but clinging to life. NPCs, questgivers, and replacements for dead PCs could all be found somewhere, almost, but not quite dead.

I often wondered why random monsters, of which there was an unending supply, did not simply eat the mostly dead characters, but now I know: if they are unconscious due to starvation they cannot die. It's all so clear now.

This, on the other hand is a nice explanation.

Not smoked gouda?

+1, I have nothing to add, I just thought this needed to be quoted.

[Post edited to correct minor errors in the Elemental and to add elemental traits. Edited again to add Knowledge Star Wars Trivia, how could I have forgotten that?!]

[danielxcutter]

Aka bait-on-a-plate.

Sounds like someone's never had good sushi. I love salmon sushi and sashimi. Also lox.

Sounds like someone has never had chicken fried steak with white gravy.

I haven't. But it sounds good.

[Peelee]

I haven't. But it sounds good.

It's usually top round beef pounded flat, breaded, and then fried. It's then topped with a white gravy made from meat drippings and milk or cream - the same gravy used in the popular breakfast dish "biscuits and gravy". It's quite good, and is somewhat similar to schnitzel, and is popular in the US Deep South.

"Chicken-fried" in the name refers to it being breaded and fried similar to fried chicken (the batter not uncommonly being called "chicken fry"). A similar dish uses chicken pounded flat instead of beef and has the delightfully ridiculous-sounding name "chicken-fried chicken".

Some people refer to it as "country fried steak/chicken". These people are wrong and we avoid them at parties.

[Doctor West]

Forum Elemental, Small
Size/Type: Small Elemental
Hit Dice: 2d8-2 (7 HP)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 10 (+1 size, -1 Dex), touch 10, flat footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
Attack: Slam +0 melee (1d6-1)
Full Attack: Slam +0 melee (1d6-1)
Space Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Troll
Special Qualities: Pointlessly Pedantic, Darkvision 60'; Immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning; Not subject to critical hits, flanking, or common sense; Unlike other elementals, a forum elemental does need to eat and breathe, but does not require sleep instead requiring a caffeinated beverage at least once every 4 hours or it collapses from caffeine withdraw; spell checker resistance/10.
Saves: Fort +2, Ref -1, Will +4
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 9, Con 8, Int 4, Wis 8, Cha 1
Skills: Listen -1, Spot -1, Craft Disturbing Mental Image +2, Knowledge Star Wars Trivia +5
Feats: Iron Will, Skill Focus (Craft Disturbing Mental Image)^B, Skill Focus (Knowledge Star Wars Trivia)^B
Environment: Mother's Basement
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (small)
Level Adjustment: +0

Troll (Su): The forum elemental may summon a single troll for one round once per year. The troll roars pointlessly as its only action, and then is banished by a moderator. If the elemental attempts to use this power again, then the elemental is temporarily banished to its home plane (as a banishment spell, but the elemental may not return to the plane it is banished from by any means except the Sock Puppet power for at least one year).

Pointlessly Pedantic (Ex): The forum elemental may argue incessantly over just what this ability does and whether or not it should be listed as an ability.

I propose
Morally Justified (Ex): The forum elemental and any sentient creature within a 50' radius is forced to engage in a circular argument for 2d6+7 days to the exclusion of all other activity whenever they hear someone mention Miko Miyazaki. This ability can only be terminated prematurely by the intervention of a moderator or reaching the page limit.

[Doug Lampert]

I propose
Morally Justified (Ex): The forum elemental and any sentient creature within a 50' radius is forced to engage in a circular argument for 2d6+7 days to the exclusion of all other activity whenever they hear someone mention Miko Miyazaki. This ability can only be terminated prematurely by the intervention of a moderator or reaching the page limit.

I disagree, a forum elemental can't force anyone else to engage in a circular argument over Miko. But the forum elemental itself of course has this weakness. Need to think some on the wording. Possibly this is part of not being subject to common sense.

Hmm, I goofed up when I added Star Wars to the elemental. It got 2 too many skill points. I may need to create a +2/+2 skill feat for forums to get the bonuses high enough despite the lack of Int on an int based skill.

[Jasdoif]

Hmm, I goofed up when I added Star Wars to the elemental. It got 2 too many skill points. I may need to create a +2/+2 skill feat for forums to get the bonuses high enough despite the lack of Int on an int based skill.

It's a Trap (Ex): The forum elemental may automatically confirm threat rolls against any creature played by an entity who contests the number of skill ranks the forum elemental has.

[Doctor West]

Perhaps allow a low DC Will save (negates), or make it only affect other forum elementals.

[brian 333]

Panel 11 and panels 1 and 2 (also see panels 9, 10 and 11 from that strip).

Taken together the arcane half seems to be for moving the gate (and rift) and the divine half is about linking such movement to Redcloak's deity.

My pet theory is that Xykon has determined that the cloak created by the Dark One for his high priest functions to give the Dark One power not to give some random arcane caster power - and so Xykon is planning to subvert that and kill something he never has killed before all with the help of that deity's most devote follower.

Why would he do this, I will refer to the below:


How often do you get the chance to do something like that?
It is likely worth a mere few decades of dedication to pull off.

Thank you, yes. I remember now. My how twenty days fly by.

Tsukiko didn't know what The Ritual does, Redcloak told her right before she was hugged to death by her creations.

My assumption is that Xykon already knew that much before using Tsukiko as bait in his fishing excursion.