Jumpers Vs. Wh40k ITP OOC 1

[Rater202]

We might be operating on different paradigms.

My understanding is that the closest things to the Chaos Gods in Marvel/DC would be things like the Endless or the Cosmic Beings who are a teensy bit above Alex's pay grade.

There's also the fact that Nurgle's powers are the kind of thing that can get past Alex's normal defenses...

And That Alex is sort of used to just easily overpowering the problem meaning she might not be judging the situation fairly.

she has a perk that keeps her well-adjusted, but plenty of well-adjusted people can still be traumatized or have skewed perspectives.

[TeChameleon]

I'll readily admit that my understanding/knowledge of 40k is limited, but the impression I had gotten was that, while the Chaos whatsits don't map cleanly onto the cosmic side of DC/Marvel, they more-or-less slotted into the lower end of the Skyfather tier, or maybe even the upper side of Herald tier- think Highfather, Odin, Zeus, maybe Silver Surfer or the Elders of the Universe- they have enormous power, but they're not completely out of the realm of possibility for empowered or heroic mortals to contend with.

[Lord Raziere]

My understanding is the Chaos Gods are only galaxy level.

let me explain: the Chaos Gods are products of the Warp. as in.....the local Warp of the galaxy. the Milky way, specifically. there are many beings from Marvel or DC that could defeat them, they're not actually as strong as the Endless.

evidence for that can be things like: the Tyranids being a thing they never predicted or knew about. Tyranids come other galaxies, and might've devoured many of them. if the Chaos Gods were on the level of Endless, you'd think they'd prevent the Tyranids from getting this close long ago. furthermore, like.....there is no Warp in the void between galaxies. if you went to another galaxy, there would be different gods, I don't buy anything saying they can like, destroy universes or whatever as true because a lot of its very old fluff and very unreliable given the setting and I'm not connecting this to like normal warhammer because I don't know warhammer and think that crossover stuff is nonsense. like here is the thing: any lore about the Chaos Gods? has to be taken with a mountain of salt, this setting is full of lies and propaganda. Tzeentch is the Great Deceiver and would want to you believe he is the strongest being to ever exist if he could, anything the Chaos Gods do has to be backed up with actual feats, if I thought they were Endless level, I'd be playing them very differently, I'd be explicitly making that comparison, Ensara wouldn't want to fight them.

because if they actually WERE? Forget fighting them. Forget the Imperium. Forget some corpse-emperor on life support, forget everything else. Endless level beings, just erase most people with a thought. (only reason the actual Endless don't do this is because they're relatively nice and written by Neil Gaiman, who is a master writer who has a million better things to do than make them use their power bluntly for silly power fantasies like ours) Endless level beings don't need psychic thought food to survive. Endless level beings just snap their fingers and win against like, most people. Endless level beings is when my other version of Ensara that has like, 50+ Jumps under her belt shows up, CURRENT Ensara realizes that she is only a pale alternate universe shadow compared to the real self known as Boundless Ensara and has an existential crisis because of it as Boundless Ensara handles things because by then you would not be going on wh40k galaxy adventures, you would be watching a being without limits face four reality warpers battle for the fate of the universe, and the only reason it would last any length of time longer than like, less than a second is because Boundless Ensara would be holding back. or at minimum, arrive wielding Nobilis powers because thats what you need to fight Endless level beings. and Chaos Gods haven't been shown to do any of the conceptual things that involves.

either that, or this would actually be hopeless.

so yeah, Chaos Gods? Endless level? don't make me laugh, and don't make things super-ultra-mega-hyper-harder for yourself. the scope and nature of the roleplay would have to change drastically for Endless-level beings. and we have more people than just you and me playing this Rater? I want to keep this comprehensible and in some sense of grounded, because your talking about reality-warper combat that like, could just change all of reality very easily, make what has happened so far seem small, insignificant and irrelevant and thats not a good thing to do to player's efforts.

like if we're talking about the Chaos Gods people fanwank up for VS battles, this would be a multiverse-level affair and universes being destroyed would be on the table, either that or your goal for the Chaos Gods would essentially be "cut them off from this particular universe so that they can't affect it anymore" because they'd be beyond this one, and the grimdarkness would be "but they are still there in OTHER WH40k's and such! OoOoOoOoOoo". But I'm not in the business of being THAT dark.

[TeChameleon]

If everybody is in the TARDIS, which I have no idea if they are or not, just scene cut us to the Black Library, please. Frode already knows where it is, he scanned for it back when he was just going to jump straight there with no preamble.

[Rater202]

Since I changed Alex's speech color to reflect the change in her powers I'm using green for Rose now.

[Lord Raziere]

Sorry, Edited it to get just get there

[TeChameleon]

Thanks, although I think we're out of synch now... Rater still seems to be aboard the Saber..?

[Lord Raziere]

okay, edited it to be its own post and to address Rater's post.

[TeChameleon]

Slight question mark on the perk I took- could I get a GM ruling on what the range would be for the 'no magic for you!' aura that Frode can now project? The perk (Watchmaker from the Doctor Who jumpdoc) doesn't actually specify.

Also, something I actually forgot about- Frode is a Complex Space-Time Event, which has weird metaphysical effects- not sure what it would do to his Warp presence (in the Materium, he's Doctor-level lucky and charismatic).

[Lord Raziere]

For the Watchmaker Aura's range I'm going to steal from mutants and Masterminds 3e, and say the aura is a 30-foot radius sphere emitting outwards from you, if the sphere is on a level surface such as nonmagical ground, then its a hemisphere with a 30 feet radius and height. I think thats a fair distance for an "aura".

I leave figuring how to extend the range up to your own creativity or other perks.

as for CSTE.....hm.....well its basically the Doctor Who version of being Destined right? Everything going your way because your Important.

Meanwhile surviving/manipulating Warp is all about Willpower, personal fortitude, integrity, that your mind is ordered and strong- this probably kind of explains why Alex was able to do what she did with Nurgle, her willpower is infinite, if anything she has only scratched the surface of what she is capable of in the Warp with only sheer willpower alone. I might've done her dirty or need to figure what infinite willpower actually means when it comes to the Warp otherwise the infinite willpower alone could make TTS Kaldor Draigo look weak.

but CSTE! hm. the Warp is like, a lot of flows and currents, metaphorically like, Happening, very volatile, very unstable. the warp in its current state is a Hell Dimension though. so you might just get the Least Bad thing happen to you at all times due to your luck? which would I guess would be "your soul is not eaten by a Daemon"

but also according to Lexicanum, a 40k wiki:

Warpspace is without form and the laws of time and space do not apply there, for both size and time are simultaneously infinite and irrelevant within The Warp

so do I assume that because its Complex Space-Time Event, that it might not work in a realm without either of those? But if I do, would that be screwing you over unnecessarily? Jumpchain perks are generally real insistent on things being fiat-backed and safe for the user. is the perk actually granting you CSTE (I generally assume it does) or just the effects of CSTE regardless of realm?

these things. they require thought, interpretation and maybe even something arbitrary to work out.

Edit: It might be protection against Tzeentch or others manipulating your fate, probably? at least in the Materium?

[Rater202]

The thing about Fiat-Backing is that it just works.

Complex Space-Time events should just work even without Space0Time for the same reason that Ensara can still sunt without a loom of fate or pattern spiders to be impressed by it.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, its a perk so....it should just work. thanks Rater.

thus: the most probable interpretation is that you still have good luck and charisma in the Warp. for whatever that counts for when talking to Daemons that want eat your soul.

[TeChameleon]

The relevant bit is "Oh. Wow. You are a Complex Space Time Event now, Jumper. While physically you are no different, meta-physically you now exist on more dimensions than the mundane, and that bends the world around you in strange ways."

Emphasis mine- the italicized bit is why I thought it might do something funky in the Warp. And the bolded bit... Frode doesn't just get the effects of a CTSE, he (meta-)physically *is* a CTSE.

[Lord Raziere]

okay. lets try to figure out what "exist on more dimensions than the mundane" even MEANS, which means we have to figure out what CSTE does in the context of Doctor Who, before we can figure out what the context is for Wh40k.

the Doctor cannot change fixed points in time. this suggests the CSTE thing has its limits, that while there is an importance to a CSTE, it cannot inherently override something so vital to the structure of the universe that without it the universe stops existing, mostly time events. thus I'd say certain events vital to making Wh40k the setting it is, like the Emperor fighting Horus and Emperor being put on the golden throne or the Fall of the Eldar or the whole thing with Goge Vandire, the Fall of the Age of Technology through the Men of Iron all probably counts as Fixed Points in time and thus can't over come them.

the Doctor also encounters problems with the Blinovitch Limitation Effect such as crossing one's own timeline, so the CSTE can't really protect against like paradoxes caused by doing that either- basically if it would alter the personal memory of your life, you've screwed up. but this is an edge case.

oh and also: the way Horus got corrupted into rebelling against the Emperor is that the Chaos gods showed Horus a vision of the 41st millennium and lying to him that if he doesn't do something the Emperor will become a tyrannical god king of a horrible hell world, when it was Horus doing something that led to it. so. the whole ten thousand years between that vision and Horus falling to Chaos in 30k is technically a massive time paradox/stable time loop thanks to the Chaos Gods.

all the things I can find om CSTE only mention the practical effects of the Doctor's CSTE protecting from being killed in a normal way and such. the higher dimension thing just seems like....a explanation thing for why one is an CSTE? like something about you is significant in the dimensions that affect probability and being likable I guess? whatever it is, this sounds more and more similar to something a Necron would have than a Warp being. like this scifi/claketech stuff, so.....maybe something Necron can help me figure this out? Orikan's a diviner who reads the future through patterns in the stars and like time travels in petty ways against Trazyn maybe info on him will shed some light on this.

so apparently, Orikan's time travel can fray the fabric of the universe and thus tear rifts in reality to make daemonic invasions more likely if he does it too much. and his divinations about what can happen in the future can be messed up by Daemons since they're nonlinear.

what little information I can find on the C'tan is that they have ability called "time's arrow" where a C'tan attempts to erase someone from time and space by "mutating the flow of time" but also things "immune to natural law" which allow them to not be bound by things like "gravity" or "solidity of matter" and other abilities about the natural laws being undone without involving the Warp.....ay yi yi....

.....so....I think considering all this.... a CSTE higher dimensions thing for this jump probably just means you can do Necron hyper-science nonsense better if you decide to learn such knowledge to manipulate it correctly. but if you screw up, by default Warp rifts start happening by default but weirder things and anomalies if it would be worse/more grimdark. don't ask how, its 40k it can ALWAYS get worse. thats the best answer I can come up with.

[TeChameleon]

Works for me, thanks Raziere.

[Earl of Purple]

Can I trade in Edward's 400-point Misting perk with the achievement point to buy the 600-point Mistborn one? I'm using this Mistborn jumpchain doc, as that's the one I found when I created Edward. TJ's repository either doesn't have this document or it's in a locked folder, but the one in the L-P Drive is different.

[Lord Raziere]

Sure, you can do that.

[TeChameleon]

Something I've been meaning to mention, Raziere, is that TARDIS-es have 'telepathic circuits' and a 'psychic field' that allow for all sorts of odd communication, translation and mind-manipulating stuff (the psychic field seems to be limited to communication for the most part); I've mostly been assuming that since they're technologically generated, in terms of Warpy phenomena, the TARDIS psychic stuff just wouldn't be compatible with 40k stuff- like trying to read a CD with an 8-track player.

I think that the TARDIS could still do the mind-manipulation (which seems to require the mind in question to be inside the TARDIS, as an aside), but it wouldn't have any actual Psyker powers unless Frode picked up a perk for that.

Not sure what the various psionically-active characters would see with Frode- even without the 'this is very different from your psychic stuff' factor, Frode has telepathic immunity from his powers (his brain was restructured fairly radically, to the point that Cable (a high-level telepath) said that the character he was primarily based on had a brain 'more like a computer') and a telepathy-proof perk as well.

EDIT- Oh- there was nothing in particular that prompted me mentioning this other than having meant to mention it for a while and being reminded because the party was around a bunch of psychic people.

Oh yeah- Earl of Purple, Edward might eventually realize that Frode sounds uncannily familiar, depending on how much time Edward spent in Whiterun; I had initially intended to base Frode's speech patterns on an old friend who is actually Norwegian, but his voice in my brain drifted until I realized that he sounded exactly like Jarl Balgruf the Greater...

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not sure what they would see either. But technically! All these particular Eldar are Solitaires, the special Eldar Blanks who AREN'T psychic and actively screw over psychic stuff with their presence and like perform/fight solo because their souls are already doomed and thus no troupe wants to fight with them normally because their role is to play Slaanesh. (Dark Eldar are also not psychic for completely different reasons, but thats a whole 'nother story, which we'll probably get to sooner or later given your interest in the Webway, you can't really fix that without dealing with the Drukhari sooner or later)

So technically I don't need to answer that now, because your interacting with like, one of two exceptions to the Eldar rule about this.

But I'd imagine most Eldar wouldn't WANT to read your mind anyways, because like "ew, human", as for psychic tech, thats something their entire race bases their civilization on as opposed to other factions, so someone having it isn't weird, its working on principles they aren't familiar with is what would be weird and even then, only to those Eldar who follow whatever the Path of Scholar/Scientist is, or Path of the Seer given they're the wizards and thus interested in such intellectual pursuits as most Eldar are about surviving the hell-galaxy they live in and making whatever living as best they can given their circumstances. as for Dark Eldar......well......they'd probably be interested in any of the Jumpers for completely different, far more horrible reasons.

[Rater202]

For the record, that's not really much about the library thats of interest to Alex.

[TeChameleon]

If it's not clear, Frode is using his 'I Speak Everything!' perk to be able to understand & 'speak' the Harlequin history-dance-language-thingy, partly just to mess with the Harlequin a little, partly just to see if he can do it.

[Rater202]

Possible conflict.

Surviving Drawback enemies from previous Jumps start turning up and messing around.

Possibly grant rewards for defeat that are appropriate for the enemy/setting they came from rather than a Perk Token.

[TeChameleon]

Given that the only more-or-less surviving Drawback enemies Frode has are the Daleks....

... the Daleks getting loose in the setting is one of the few ways I can think of where a (relatively) mundane group could make things massively worse in 40k o.0

Then again, even the Dr Who jumpdoc portrays even Jump-Chan as having a "Oh, **** no!" reaction to the Daleks being unleashed on the multiverse.

[Lord Raziere]

previous enemies.....

I dunno how that'd work with Ensara, to be honest. most of her enemies before this were mostly planetary or less than planetary in scale: Exalted takes in Creation which, while flat isn't much bigger than Earth, Gaia is also a earth-sized planet, the biggest threat would probably be other planeswalkers coming in.....or new Phyrexia. Nicol Bolas, if he's just imprisoned like he is in canon. Like there'd probably be personal foes for Ensara coming after her for personal reasons, mostly revenge for wrecking this and that or killing this or that person, maybe a Lunar mate who is angry that Ensara went gallivanting across the multiverse without her, probably Gaian conspiracy and Church remnants wanting to kill her for destroying those organizations. Like there is probably a long list of people who have beef with Ensara personally but probably only Nicol Bolas and New Phyrexia would pose a threat on a large scale. like sure an Abyssal Exalted would look at Wh40k and go "yup time to put you all out of your misery" but would have to go on a big quest to actually achieve that, like sure they'd could slaughter an army but whats an army to the Imperium but an expendable resource of human bodies that they have an entire galaxy of?

My own idea of like post-Nurgle stuff is like, new human empires, cultures and factions starting to emerge and do stuff differently from the Imperium- not necessarily always BETTER, but not ineffective. because like the cataclysm of Nurgle really provides some good plot opportunities for them to form assuming that some time-acceleration shenanigans happened in the brief time the warp storm was there so that they can form before Alex calmed things. Also I'm probably gonna take some time focus on the aliens a bit, killing Nurgles a pretty big Chaos thing after all and they're not the only threat in this setting.

also realizing that I never figured out any particular prophecies to put in that book. probably gonna have to improvise those up. I knew I thought it was a good idea for *some* reasons....

[TeChameleon]

Don't know if you need to stress too much about the prophecies, at least for me... the Time Lord attitude towards them (which has rubbed off on Frode somewhat) generally seems to be "Heh. That's adorable."

Which is somewhat understandable for a race for whom time is more-or-less optional, I suppose.

[Lord Raziere]

Don't know if you need to stress too much about the prophecies, at least for me... the Time Lord attitude towards them (which has rubbed off on Frode somewhat) generally seems to be "Heh. That's adorable."

Which is somewhat understandable for a race for whom time is more-or-less optional, I suppose.

Yeah, your probably right, they'll probably just like excuses to introduce specific scenarios in a more mystical way anyways like "Try bring back all Twenty Primarchs, yes even the ones that got unpersoned and the ones that are dead forever" or other things to that effect. basically, more fun/interesting than practicality, and probably not perfect solutions anyways, given Tzeentch/Slaanesh having purviews to control hope, change and perfection, pride and never being satisfied and thus would probably hoard or corrupt any vision of the future thats TOO beneficial.

[Rater202]

Given that the only more-or-less surviving Drawback enemies Frode has are the Daleks....

... the Daleks getting loose in the setting is one of the few ways I can think of where a (relatively) mundane group could make things massively worse in 40k o.0

Then again, even the Dr Who jumpdoc portrays even Jump-Chan as having a "Oh, **** no!" reaction to the Daleks being unleashed on the multiverse.

previous enemies.....

I dunno how that'd work with Ensara, to be honest. most of her enemies before this were mostly planetary or less than planetary in scale: Exalted takes in Creation which, while flat isn't much bigger than Earth, Gaia is also a earth-sized planet, the biggest threat would probably be other planeswalkers coming in.....or new Phyrexia. Nicol Bolas, if he's just imprisoned like he is in canon. Like there'd probably be personal foes for Ensara coming after her for personal reasons, mostly revenge for wrecking this and that or killing this or that person, maybe a Lunar mate who is angry that Ensara went gallivanting across the multiverse without her, probably Gaian conspiracy and Church remnants wanting to kill her for destroying those organizations. Like there is probably a long list of people who have beef with Ensara personally but probably only Nicol Bolas and New Phyrexia would pose a threat on a large scale. like sure an Abyssal Exalted would look at Wh40k and go "yup time to put you all out of your misery" but would have to go on a big quest to actually achieve that, like sure they'd could slaughter an army but whats an army to the Imperium but an expendable resource of human bodies that they have an entire galaxy of?

My own idea of like post-Nurgle stuff is like, new human empires, cultures and factions starting to emerge and do stuff differently from the Imperium- not necessarily always BETTER, but not ineffective. because like the cataclysm of Nurgle really provides some good plot opportunities for them to form assuming that some time-acceleration shenanigans happened in the brief time the warp storm was there so that they can form before Alex calmed things. Also I'm probably gonna take some time focus on the aliens a bit, killing Nurgles a pretty big Chaos thing after all and they're not the only threat in this setting.

also realizing that I never figured out any particular prophecies to put in that book. probably gonna have to improvise those up. I knew I thought it was a good idea for *some* reasons....

If neither of you have anything...

Well, Alex never did defeat Thanoseid.

And the Jump with the Drawback for that has a scenario about defeating him* and everything.

*Well, Darkseid, but since it as combined with Amalgam Comics I used the Amalgam version.

I could set it up now and then we can get to it when we get to it.

[Lord Raziere]

I wouldn't call all those ideas "nothing" Rater. this roleplay supposed to be focused on Jumpers in Wh40k right? complications without overtaking the setting should be fine right?

But you giving suggestions like this indicate that maybe we should change things up a bit. Maybe I've been too focused on consistency and accuracy of portrayal and hewing towards original intention, worried that you might complain about deviating from that. But if I was wrong and I should play a bit looser....

[Rater202]

I didn't mean to imply that you had no ideas, just...That you didn't seem particularly interested in the suggestion...

If the idea's no good I'll drop it.

Edit: Also my consistent issues were always in regard to consistency with established facts already in play in a game.

[Lord Raziere]

No its good! I'm glad that your open to those ideas like previous enemies showing up, I was trying to figure out how to make things interesting using only the setting but if your okay with things like that, this'll help expand the possibilities at least.