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    Default What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    I am planning a new campaign, and, as all new campaigns should, this one will have a unique feature or three to make it as unique as possible without becoming too weird or irritating. I am currently in the brainstorming phase of that process. One idea I am playing around is: potions are quite common and cheap, but also highly addictive, both physically as well as mentally and might have some serious side effects.

    Now, I don’t want this to become a mere allegory. I am not interested in a drug PSA masquerading as a campaign setting. This isn’t about a moral tale about good, clean heroes saying no to drugs, or evil drug fiends, or anything as ham-fisted as that, nor is it about creating an edgy dark world of “you must take the fantasy drug to even have a chance to succeed.” I don’t think that other people’s drug consumption or opinion about drugs is my business, as long as I don’t have serious concerns about their well-being, or they are particular annoying about it. And yes, I know my group, they are adults and I am pretty sure they are comfortable with the issue (and if not, mutual trust makes it easy to simply say no to any of my ideas).

    I rather want to explore this fixed idea of mine from a world-building point of view - there are powerful alchemist guilds who maintain a monopoly on the production and sale of potions, have amassed a lot of power (both in the magical and political sense) with large gardens and menageries to harvest components (there will be no such thing as a vegan health potion here, I’m afraid, and the more powerful potions might very well include some ethnically questionable ingredients). Their power plays and rivalries will offer a nice framework for various adventures (from 0 “find a rare specimen of dungeon lichen" to "steal the recipe heist” or even a mission to free the tiefling toddlers before their livers are harvested).
    There might be potion runners who smuggle illegally brewed potions and sell behind the back of the mighty guilds. Conflicts with natives outside of the guild-dominated lands about sources of rare ingredients and natural resources might spark further conflicts. Better quality potions will probably exist, at higher prices and no side effects - both to offer the PCs an alterative if they don't want to play the risk-reward game of chugging cheap potions (which might be slightly toxic/mutegenic/hallucinogenic etc.) and as a luxury article within the world building.

    Alchemy will probably be the dominant form of magic, with more traditional spellcasters being rare (“you are not a tempest domain cleric, you are the Cleric of the Storm), less powerful (in a political/organisational sense) than the , or mostly absorbed into the guild system. To keep the balance, thematically speaking, spellcasting will probably also have some irritating or less-than-perfect side effects. Also, alchemist guilds will probably also tightly control the material component market.

    As of now, I am not too interested in balancing issues, because I don’t even know which rule set we are going to use. Probably 5e, or Low Fantasy Gaming, or maybe Whitehack, if I can convince the group to playtest yet another OSR game that looks intriguing to me and they haven’t even heard about.

    However, questions, I hope you can answer:
    • Are there any good third party sources about potions, alchemy etc. you can recommend? This is more about finding new stuff to add to the game or get inspired by.
    • How would you handle side effects of potion addiction, or side effects? Are there any good rules about potential side effects or addiction?
    • When we are talking alchemists, the elephant in the room is black powder, and therefore bombs and firearms (at least very simple ones, I am more interested in medieval handgonnes and those cute throwable bombs with a burning fuse than early modern muskets or even rifles). Have you any experiences/recommendations for using firearms in D&D?
    • What is the worst thing that could happen?
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?
    FWIW, Robin Hobb's first three Farseer books got their start from Robin asking herself "What if magic were addictive" (and exacted a price) and it turned into some really neat world building. Your idea isn't the same one, but it's similar enough.

    However, questions, I hope you can answer: [*]How would you handle side effects of potion addiction, or side effects? Are
    there any good rules about potential side effects or addiction?
    Consider something like a 1/x effectiveness?
    Or, look into how some drugs build up a 'tolerance' level such that needing another dose is needed to get the same effect. The literature on that it extensive.
    Have you any experiences/recommendations for using firearms in D&D?
    Some modest experience, my recommendation is don't. If you want firearms play a game that has it already baked in.

    Lastly: look at the minor mental illness tables in the DMG. You could index them to various potions that if overused in a period of 1, 3, 5 or 7 days (not sure what your adventure rhythm is) trigger a save versus a minor mental deficiency.

    On the physical side, if PC consumes too many potions, it triggers a Con save or adds 1 level of exhaustion.

    There are a lot of ways to mechanically play around with this. I suggest not making this complex, though.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-07-28 at 04:34 PM.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    • How would you handle side effects of potion addiction, or side effects? Are there any good rules about potential side effects or addiction?
    • When we are talking alchemists, the elephant in the room is black powder, and therefore bombs and firearms (at least very simple ones, I am more interested in medieval handgonnes and those cute throwable bombs with a burning fuse than early modern muskets or even rifles). Have you any experiences/recommendations for using firearms in D&D?
    • What is the worst thing that could happen?
    Addiction: Most addiction rules I've seen tend to be fairly simple - you need to take Potion X once per day minimum, or you suffer a penalty (minuses to Dex from the shakes, Fortitude saves vs heart attacks, tkae a level of Fatigue, character gains the Paranoia hindrance, etc, etc). If you want to get more complex, you could have increasing tolerances: After a month you need two lots of Potion X, then 3, then 4. Addiction comes from
    "make a Con save", or "You have an 80% chance of becoming addicted each time you drink one".

    Black Powder: I don't think DnD does guns well, but if you want a reason not to: Black powder is less likely to developed in Potion World. You can't drink the stuff safely, it provides no abilities to the person drinking it, and the whole thing is therefore a waste of time you could be putting into Prometium, a much more promising plant that makes potions that make you stronger. So Alchemists have never bothered developing black powder, precisely because it doesn't provide any potion related benefits. Or go the opposite route - that sulpher is a very useful and common ingredient in making potions, so the Alchemists have cornered the market - there isn't enough sulpher for anyone to have tried experimenting with making black powder!

    What's the worst thing that could happen?: Out-of-game, that it's a tedious mechanic to interact with, and that PC wealth destroys it. At high levels in many systems, PCs are routinely wearing 100,000 gold worth of magical equipment on them. Paying 5 gold a day for an ultra-cheap-but-necessary Potion of Cure Light Wounds to keep their addiction at bay costs them 1800 gold a year, and PCs killing a single level appropriate encounter will walk off with that much gold with ease, rendering this just a mundane tax you might not even bother tracking (like tracking how much PCs paid to stay in the inn for a week, which often gets handwaved as being inconsequential.

    On the other hand, if the potion need grows in intensity, and high level PCs now need to drink 10,000gp worth of potions a day, then you'll end up with the opposite problem - PCs can't afford to feed their addiction, and you end up with an entire party of crippled PCs who just accept that the price of playing is that all characters now have -6 Dex, and it's again a mundane frustration that goes into the background.

    In-game, it seems like you're heading for a Crapsack World. The poor can afford to get into potions, but not get out of them. Only the very wealthy can actually derive benefits from potions instead of just feeding their addiction. Exploring for too far a distance away from your potion source runs serious risks, since you're one broken crate of supplies away from everyone in the expedition collapsing into lethargy or pain. Swathes of dead who can't afford their fix could be a common sight. There's plenty of incentive for the short-sighted members of the Alchemist's Guild to start jacking up the price (like an evil corporation). If potions remain ultra-cheap, there's no point in a black market for them - not enough profit margin for the dealers to bother risking the Guild's wrath.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    I think you'll run into (at least) one major issue from a gameplay standpoint: players are already too paranoid to use consumables much of the time. Making them come with a hefty drawback will just reinforce the issue.

    The knock-on effect is that, of course, the worldbuilding element will then never actually come up among your party, making it essentially just wasted words in the background of your setting.

    If your party is already prone to bullying a player into playing a Cleric, expect that issue to be exacerbated. If they are not, expect the new behavior to arise.

    This is the kind of setting rule that works better in a new system, or a very heavily houseruled one (such as one where magical healing is difficult for players to come across outside of potions).
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-07-28 at 09:43 PM.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Fmmm. Lets see. Current system I have on hand does something like. Certain drugs have addiction rating 1 to 4, that sets the dc for the save every time the drug is taken. Each fail is another level of addiction to that drug. Addictions to different drugs don't stack.

    First level withdrawl is just a malus (lose one rolked die off the final dice pool reduces max from roll 10 keep 10 to roll 9 keep 9) to all skill/stat affected rolls (includes saves, natch). Second level withdrawl the dice don't explode (dice pool system, effectively caps rolls at a lower total, a d20 game cap them at rolling a 15? use a d16 if available?), and first level effect. Third level of withdrawl is loss of another die from rolled pool and two from kept plus the level 1 & 2 effects (drop to total max roll 8 keep 8, but 6 keep 4 drops to roll 4 keep 2).

    Addiction rating of each drug indicates how often you need to take it to keep the withdrawl from happening, weekly - 3 days - daily - as soon as the drug wears off. Kicking addiction means staying off all drugs for a week & making the save after that week against the addiction rating. Success reduces addiction level to that drug by 1. Trick of course is making drugs good enough to risk using. Just standard d&d style little heals & minor buffs or limited protections won't do. Also, sell a detox drug to mitigate (but not neutralize) addiction.

    For gunpowder I had a partially worked up setting for d&d 3.5 with cannon & bombs but no personal scale weapons. Using mining explosive saftey data worked up an explosion chart that gave scaling radius & damage appropriate to mass of powder but with the low end tweaked to make charges under 2 lbs sad face weak sauce. Big cannon & bombs were good but the small one pounder did about single arrow damage for a lot more work & cost. Then went & worked the cannon off RL shot/ blackpowder weights & ranges.

    Made them great for armies & fortifications (you needed a decent crew for any real rate of fire plus set up time), and based everything off skill checks so npcs could play too. But for adventuring parties they were terrible except the occasional bomb as trap or vs a structure. Csn go look for the files if there is interest.
    Last edited by Telok; 2022-07-29 at 12:43 AM.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    For blackpowder the real confining factor is metallurgy not chemistry. Making a gun that does not blow up in your hands is a non trivial task. Making a reliable firing hole is a non trivial task.

    I’ve run potions as addictive in the past. Some ideas from that campaign.
    1) infrequent use should be safe from the effects of addiction.
    2) addiction should progress in steps. I had light addiction, addiction and heavy addiction. Each step required more frequent dosage to avoid ill effects and characters built up tolerances which lessened the effect of each dose.
    3) There should be multiple paths to remove addiction. I had weaning, cold turkey and an alchemical cure that instantly cured the addiction but prevented the character from ever benefitting from the potion ever again.
    I ran the potions as purely psychologically addictive. The withdrawal penalty applied to any non-combat check that was related to thinking - spot checks, lore checks, persuasion checks, perform checks and so on. But any life or death situation the character was considered focussed enough not to suffer penalties.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    On the other hand, if the potion need grows in intensity, and high level PCs now need to drink 10,000gp worth of potions a day, then you'll end up with the opposite problem - PCs can't afford to feed their addiction, and you end up with an entire party of crippled PCs who just accept that the price of playing is that all characters now have -6 Dex, and it's again a mundane frustration that goes into the background.
    Not to mention the fact that the 15 minute adventuring day is now enforced by spending the rest of it in the toilet.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post

    Consider something like a 1/x effectiveness?
    Or, look into how some drugs build up a 'tolerance' level such that needing another dose is needed to get the same effect. The literature on that it extensive.
    Again, I don't want to make this too much of an allegory about drugs and consumption- my idea was more like a table with random side effects from consuming potions. There is an old Asterix comic, were the Druid of the Gaul village got hit by a menhir and loses his mind, leading to all sorts of shenanigans while brewing magic potions.

    Spoiler
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    Something like this could occur in game as well. It might be a public embarassment when your last potion turns your skin purple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    Black Powder: I don't think DnD does guns well,
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    If you want firearms play a game that has it already baked in.

    Okay, why do you think that the rules deal worse with firearms than with crossbows? I understand what you are saying, but to me, both should probably be slow loading, high damage ranged weapons with moderate range, with one going plong and the other boom.
    The 5e DMG stats for early modern firearms are pretty bad (with ridiculously high prices and abysmal range), but having an arquebus with heavy crossbow range and price, dealing 1d12 damage at the cost of being loud and producing a lot of smoke seems okay. And it probably doesn't matter if you have a fireball potion/oil of burning or a grenade, when both deal about 3d6 points of damage, halved by a successful save. I know that AD&D era Forgotten Realms had Firearms, but I can't remember where they were introduced and how effective they were.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    What's the worst thing that could happen?: Out-of-game, that it's a tedious mechanic to interact with, and that PC wealth destroys it. At high levels in many systems, PCs are routinely wearing 100,000 gold worth of magical equipment on them. Paying 5 gold a day for an ultra-cheap-but-necessary Potion of Cure Light Wounds to keep their addiction at bay costs them 1800 gold a year, and PCs killing a single level appropriate encounter will walk off with that much gold with ease, rendering this just a mundane tax you might not even bother tracking (like tracking how much PCs paid to stay in the inn for a week, which often gets handwaved as being inconsequential.


    On the other hand, if the potion need grows in intensity, and high level PCs now need to drink 10,000gp worth of potions a day, then you'll end up with the opposite problem - PCs can't afford to feed their addiction, and you end up with an entire party of crippled PCs who just accept that the price of playing is that all characters now have -6 Dex, and it's again a mundane frustration that goes into the background.
    Understood. Balancing relevancy and frustration avoidance is pretty important with any setting element. I'll probably use the addiction for PCs more like a Damocles sword of potential danger instead of a significant risk (after all, the idea of a threat is often more potent than the threat itself). However, magical items in this scenar besides potions and oils will be probably be limited in the first place, mostly because thy . I am certainly not returning to any wealth by level ideology anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reversefigure4 View Post
    In-game, it seems like you're heading for a Crapsack World. The poor can afford to get into potions, but not get out of them. Only the very wealthy can actually derive benefits from potions instead of just feeding their addiction. Exploring for too far a distance away from your potion source runs serious risks, since you're one broken crate of supplies away from everyone in the expedition collapsing into lethargy or pain. Swathes of dead who can't afford their fix could be a common sight. .
    I admit I add a pinch of bitterness to most campaign settings I come up with, to balance-out the sugary sweetness of my real world personality and the savoury goodness of my game mastering. It is, a question of balancing tastes.
    But sure, a setting like that has the potential to become quite misanthropic, which isn't something me or my players enjoy. The alchemist guilds working both as antagonists and as patrons for the PCs is a feature, as far as I am concerned, because that offers a lot of potential for intrigue and the cathartic moment when the players manage to goad two villainous organisations into fighting each other tooth and nail.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    players are already too paranoid to use consumables much of the time. Making them come with a hefty drawback will just reinforce the issue.
    I consider this to be unlikely. In this context, potions might only be slightly less accessible than spell slots, or specialty arrows. While saving ammo might be good advice sometimes, it probably isn’t all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The knock-on effect is that, of course, the worldbuilding element will then never actually come up among your party, making it essentially just wasted words in the background of your setting.
    That’s not how settings work. Or at least, not how they should work within the context of a halfway interested gaming group. If I ran an Ancient Greece campaign, the existence of reliable oracles or the temples of Pallas Athena will also play a role even if no characters are seers, clerics of the wise goddess or ask the whispering demon Psithyros about their fate. Setting details inform and influence character decisions, albeit sometimes indirectly. In this example, Eumelos and Eurydice might be perfectly fine names for characters, while Herbert and Kevin wouldn’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    For gunpowder I had a partially worked up setting for d&d 3.5 with cannon & bombs but no personal scale weapons. Using mining explosive saftey data worked up an explosion chart that gave scaling radius & damage appropriate to mass of powder but with the low end tweaked to make charges under 2 lbs sad face weak sauce. Big cannon & bombs were good but the small one pounder did about single arrow damage for a lot more work & cost. Then went & worked the cannon off RL shot/ blackpowder weights & ranges.

    Made them great for armies & fortifications (you needed a decent crew for any real rate of fire plus set up time), and based everything off skill checks so npcs could play too. But for adventuring parties they were terrible except the occasional bomb as trap or vs a structure. Csn go look for the files if there is interest.
    Oh, there is some interest. If it isn’t to much work, I would gladly see your results, because you obviously put a lot of effort in it – I don’t know if I would use it (you seem to prefer more predetermined and structured rules than I do), but I definitely respect it when people go the extra mile and do some research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    For blackpowder the real confining factor is metallurgy not chemistry. Making a gun that does not blow up in your hands is a non trivial task. Making a reliable firing hole is a non trivial task.
    I assume that any society that has artisans able to craft full plate armor also will have the metallurgic knowledge to built something like a handgonne and advance things from there by trial and error. After all, simple handgonne style weapons predate the typical knight’s armor (gothic harness etc.) by about a century. But yes, having them be unreliable (especially with bigger cannons) might be a part of the “fun” of being an early adopter of a new and not yet completely fool-proof technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    I’ve run potions as addictive in the past. Some ideas from that campaign.
    1) infrequent use should be safe from the effects of addiction.
    2) addiction should progress in steps. I had light addiction, addiction and heavy addiction. Each step required more frequent dosage to avoid ill effects and characters built up tolerances which lessened the effect of each dose.
    3) There should be multiple paths to remove addiction. I had weaning, cold turkey and an alchemical cure that instantly cured the addiction but prevented the character from ever benefitting from the potion ever again.
    I ran the potions as purely psychologically addictive. The withdrawal penalty applied to any non-combat check that was related to thinking - spot checks, lore checks, persuasion checks, perform checks and so on. But any life or death situation the character was considered focussed enough not to suffer penalties.
    That sounds like good advice, but since I am lazy, I will probably handle withdrawal as exhaustion.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Ha, was already on g-drive. Cannondale pdf for cannon & bombs.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9X...MGw8fw72tzdH3g

    Yup, data derived from rl tnt & blackpowder & cannons. Then adjusted to fit a d&d 3.5 setting. Goal of having cannons & making armies/seiges useful but not handing adventuring parties a haversack of loaded pistols to machine gun down dragons with.

    Ad&d arquebus was pretty lame. Lt xbow was 1 turn load & 1 turn fire for 1d8, heavy was 2 turns load for 1d10, arq was 3 or 4 turns load for... 1d12?... if I recall plus 10-50 gold a shot in powder. But the "special bonus" for firearms was exploding damage dice. Roll a 12 and you can roll again & add... which with a d12 is really sad, its barely more often than a crit.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    I assume that any society that has artisans able to craft full plate armor also will have the metallurgic knowledge to built something like a handgonne and advance things from there by trial and error. After all, simple handgonne style weapons predate the typical knight’s armor (gothic harness etc.) by about a century. But yes, having them be unreliable (especially with bigger cannons) might be a part of the “fun” of being an early adopter of a new and not yet completely fool-proof technology.


    That sounds like good advice, but since I am lazy, I will probably handle withdrawal as exhaustion.
    On the potions/withdrawal I recommend the exhaustion as affecting non-combat checks. My players really jacked up against withdrawal affecting combat, which is why I revised it to say in true life or death situations the character got their sh*t together. This was in the days before the 15 minute workday so maybe the dynamic of the game has changed.

    With forging of cannons/handguns the question isn’t “can the artisans make it if you give them the exact blue prints of what we know works?”. The question is “how long will it take to independently develop the technology through trial and error?”. In real history the European development of cannons was driven by the need to defeat castles. In a D&D why develop cannons when hiring a high level wizard or dragon is cheaper and more effective? Handguns were primarily developed as a way to defeat heavily armored foes (half plate+) that were commonly encountered, yet in D&D many races/cultures that your army may fight against don’t use heavy armor and bows/crossbows will serve you better. And again why develop an unreliable handgun when a hired wizard can do the job better and cheaper?
    What I see as the core problem with blackpowder in a D&D setting is that all the early developmental stages that you need to gain the skills to develop the later desirable weapons are done better by magic. Accordingly the artisans never develop the skills and techniques needed to progress the technology.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    For blackpowder the real confining factor is metallurgy not chemistry. Making a gun that does not blow up in your hands is a non trivial task. Making a reliable firing hole is a non trivial task.
    In a world with adamantine armor made from that super hard metal, gun barrels ought to be doable: Expensive, yes, but doable.

    For the OP: I am very familiar with Asterix and Getafix, and babies falling into magic potion. If you want to use D&D for your base line, the (5e) DMG has 'side effects of mixing potions' already in there. Read the DMG table on p. 140 and see if that fits what you need. Or take that idea and expand on it. The AD&D 1e DMG had something similar but I am not going to dig it out of the closet for this.

    As to gunpowder: you got my recommendation. I am not interested in an argument.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    * How would you handle side effects of potion addiction, or side effects? Are there any good rules about potential side effects or addiction?
    * When we are talking alchemists, the elephant in the room is black powder, and therefore bombs and firearms (at least very simple ones, I am more interested in medieval handgonnes and those cute throwable bombs with a burning fuse than early modern muskets or even rifles). Have you any experiences/recommendations for using firearms in D&D?
    * What is the worst thing that could happen?
    * Mechanical effects should be relatively minor (or at least start out relatively minor). Remember, you're trying to entice your players to make the "wrong" choice here. If they don't see any reward in the move, they're not gonna try it no matter what you say. One of my players has lycanthropy right now: her PC hates it and is trying to get rid of it, but she's also slowly discovering the extent of her new powers and defenses, and has started to rely on them in combat. If you want your players to make a "power at a price" decision, the power has got to be worth it, and the price needs to be fun - either fun to roleplay or fun to problem-solve. If they don't trust you, they're just going to worry about getting screwed over and move right past it. Prove that this won't be an out-of-character punishment: it will be an engaging story arc to explore.

    * If you're in D&D, I simply wouldn't bother with guns. If you really need to justify it with alchemists and black powder, just say that those compounds don't work together like they do in real life. It's a fantasy world with magic: there's no reason you can't just say guns never developed. It's your world, and it's your job to throw out anything that keeps it from being fun. And I think guns will be a pain in the ass to homebrew balance in D&D. Always have been, always will be.

    * What is the worst thing that could happen? It sucks and nobody has any fun
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-07-29 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    ... to defeat castles. In a D&D why develop cannons when hiring a high level wizard or dragon is cheaper and more effective? Handguns were primarily developed as a...
    This stuff is why I was doing the cannon stuff the way I did. The biggest cannon only cost around 9kgp (and weigh 5 tons) while a +2 sharp stick cost 8.3kgp. The differences being that while you could get a 12th+ level caster to throw down half a day of spells you could for a similar outlay, 25 people, a 7th level expert npc, some wagons & oxen, and a bit over 800gp a shot, thrown out 75d6+255 damage at a 1500' range increment all week... at the rate of about one shot an hour.

    Casters are good at close & fast effects. But for a ruler its easier & cheaper to get a few experts, train a bunch of peasants, set up a powder operation, and have multiple reliable tools to flatten enemy castles & ships & such. Much more reliable, replacable, and controllable than people who may do stuff like raise undead, teleport off the continent, or create the next owlbear in their spare time.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    Again, I don't want to make this too much of an allegory about drugs and consumption- my idea was more like a table with random side effects from consuming potions. There is an old Asterix comic, were the Druid of the Gaul village got hit by a menhir and loses his mind, leading to all sorts of shenanigans while brewing magic potions... Something like this could occur in game as well. It might be a public embarassment when your last potion turns your skin purple.
    It kinda sounds like you're still looking at the addiction angle. If you are, I think it's important to understand the distinction between addictions and physical dependencies.

    Through the alchemical properties of a potion, an adventurer might become physically dependent on, e.g., healing potions. If they stop taking it, they'll experience withdrawal symptoms (which vary greatly in real-world drugs). It's very possible to be dependent without being addicted. Conversely, it's possible for an adventurer to become addicted to, e.g., dungeon crawling (which could be similar to a gambling addiction). But as it's a behavioral addiction, there would be no withdrawal symptoms and no physical dependency.

    It sounds like you care much more about the physical dependency side of things than the addiction side of things. Personally, I would also focus there—addictions would take away player agency. If their characters are physically dependent, they can still make a choice.

    As for the side effects angle, I agree with KorvinStarmast's suggestion to look at page 140 of the D&D 5e's Dungeon Master's Guide. I would also recommend looking at page 103 of the Player's Handbook and page 25 in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. They contain the Wild Magic Sorcerer and Barbarian, respectively, and the magic tables can be used with just minor revisions.


    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    For the OP: I am very familiar with Asterix and Getafix, and babies falling into magic potion. If you want to use D&D for your base line, the (5e) DMG has 'side effects of mixing potions' already in there. Read the DMG table on p. 140 and see if that fits what you need. Or take that idea and expand on it. The AD&D 1e DMG had something similar but I am not going to dig it out of the closet for this.
    Yes, seconded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    * Mechanical effects should be relatively minor (or at least start out relatively minor). Remember, you're trying to entice your players to make the "wrong" choice here. If they don't see any reward in the move, they're not gonna try it no matter what you say. One of my players has lycanthropy right now: her PC hates it and is trying to get rid of it, but she's also slowly discovering the extent of her new powers and defenses, and has started to rely on them in combat. If you want your players to make a "power at a price" decision, the power has got to be worth it, and the price needs to be fun - either fun to roleplay or fun to problem-solve. If they don't trust you, they're just going to worry about getting screwed over and move right past it. Prove that this won't be an out-of-character punishment: it will be an engaging story arc to explore.

    * If you're in D&D, I simply wouldn't bother with guns. If you really need to justify it with alchemists and black powder, just say that those compounds don't work together like they do in real life. It's a fantasy world with magic: there's no reason you can't just say guns never developed. It's your world, and it's your job to throw out anything that keeps it from being fun. And I think guns will be a pain in the ass to homebrew balance in D&D. Always have been, always will be.

    * What is the worst thing that could happen? It sucks and nobody has any fun
    Also seconded! I think the wild surge tables in 5e are a lot of fun (and I'm playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer right now specifically for access to it).

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    It sounds like you care much more about the physical dependency side of things than the addiction side of things. Personally, I would also focus there—addictions would take away player agency. If their characters are physically dependent, they can still make a choice.

    As for the side effects angle, I agree with KorvinStarmast's suggestion to look at page 140 of the D&D 5e's Dungeon Master's Guide. I would also recommend looking at page 103 of the Player's Handbook and page 25 in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. They contain the Wild Magic Sorcerer and Barbarian, respectively, and the magic tables can be used with just minor revisions.

    Speaking from the cobwebbed cupboard of 3rd edition over here, one analogy that might be useful is the Physical Dependency rules for certain undead, originating out of Libris Mortis (p.10) - it was meant to "rule-ise" (I dare not say model) the "Blod! I must hef more blod!" cravings of vampires and zombies, but it could work for addictions too. Basically you've either got inescapable craving or diet dependency. Craving has to be satiated every day, or else take a Will DC 25 saving throw failing which you have 1d6 WIS damage. Diet dependency has to be satiated every 3 days, or else take a Will DC 15 or 2d4 WIS damage.


    As for how one would handle Restoration or Lesser Restoration addressed to these? Buildup of tolerance, the body is restored less and less as time goes on by these methods.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    You might also draw inspiration from magic items. D&D 5e has the wand of wonder on page 212 of the Dungeon Master's Handbook. Yet another table of random magic to modify and apply to your potions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Speaking from the cobwebbed cupboard of 3rd edition over here, one analogy that might be useful is the Physical Dependency rules for certain undead, originating out of Libris Mortis (p.10) - it was meant to "rule-ise" (I dare not say model) the "Blod! I must hef more blod!" cravings of vampires and zombies, but it could work for addictions too. Basically you've either got inescapable craving or diet dependency. Craving has to be satiated every day, or else take a Will DC 25 saving throw failing which you have 1d6 WIS damage. Diet dependency has to be satiated every 3 days, or else take a Will DC 15 or 2d4 WIS damage.
    Thank you, Saintheart! I remember reading Libris Mortis, although I don't have the book with me now. I do think there's an important difference between undead cravings and physical dependency, though. For most drugs, withdrawal symptoms eventually end. Someone could go cold turkey and be perfectly fine in the end (so long as the potion dependencies are modeled off of something like cocaine and not something like alcohol). But a vampire's craving for blood doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    As for how one would handle Restoration or Lesser Restoration addressed to these? Buildup of tolerance, the body is restored less and less as time goes on by these methods.
    Huh. That might be an interesting mechanic if applied to potions. Wouldn't work for spells themselves. Unless Black Jester wants to start modifying magic, too.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Ha, was already on g-drive. Cannondale pdf for cannon & bombs.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9X...MGw8fw72tzdH3g
    That looks really cool. I am unsure about the potions angle, but looking at this, magic & musketeers looks quite enticing. I haven't read it all yet (last weekend in freedom until next semester's munchkins will devour my time once more), but this represents something that really appreciate in RPG writing: people going the extra step to do something cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    * Mechanical effects should be relatively minor (or at least start out relatively minor). Remember, you're trying to entice your players to make the "wrong" choice here. If they don't see any reward in the move, they're not gonna try it no matter what you say. One of my players has lycanthropy right now: her PC hates it and is trying to get rid of it, but she's also slowly discovering the extent of her new powers and defenses, and has started to rely on them in combat. If you want your players to make a "power at a price" decision, the power has got to be worth it, and the price needs to be fun - either fun to roleplay or fun to problem-solve. If they don't trust you, they're just going to worry about getting screwed over and move right past it. Prove that this won't be an out-of-character punishment: it will be an engaging story arc to explore.
    That is pretty close on how I plan to use something like this, usually by letting the players choose or define the downsides of effects like this themselves, or randomize the whole negative aspects to a degree. The idea is that using potions and alchemical goods is less about book keeping and resource managment (because the last two campaigns I ran were very exploration-heavy and therefore required a lot of handling various resources), but about risk management. I cann do that just fine with spells (i.e. you can cast as many spells as you like, but with each consecutive use of magic, the risk of harmfull backfiring increases) but spells are usually class-bound, and I wanted to avoid a "gritty realism for thee, but not for me" scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    It kinda sounds like you're still looking at the addiction angle. If you are, I think it's important to understand the distinction between addictions and physical dependencies.[...]

    It sounds like you care much more about the physical dependency side of things than the addiction side of things. Personally, I would also focus there—addictions would take away player agency. If their characters are physically dependent, they can still make a choice.
    Yeah, good advice.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Also seconded! I think the wild surge tables in 5e are a lot of fun (and I'm playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer right now specifically for access to it).
    Random side effects and events can be fun and are genuinely good for the game because they offer a layer of unpredictability to the game that offers unpredictability. Same couts for random encounters - even when running a game, there are times were I like to be surprised by potential events.


    Generally speaking: Thank you all for your feedback. There will be other things I will consider for the next campaign, but I like the idea of the alchemy cartels guilds as a power factor. If you are interested, I can name a guild after you when writing more about this.
    Play the world, not the rules. Numbers don't add up to a game - ideas do.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    Generally speaking: Thank you all for your feedback. There will be other things I will consider for the next campaign, but I like the idea of the alchemy cartels guilds as a power factor. If you are interested, I can name a guild after you when writing more about this.
    Sure thing. Good luck with your campaign.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?
    Welcome to Shadowrun! (or cyberpunk in general.)
    You are pretty much describing how combat drugs are treated.


    The point is generally to storytell how the foolish in their ill-considered quest for reward accumulate debts that have to be paid sooner or later.
    In role playing games, this is reflected in the general world building idea of providing cheap, but flawed, alternatives to the good stuff, sending characters and NPC's into downward spirals that they then have to extricate themselves from, or risk certain doom for themselves and/or the world around them. You'll note that the idea also can be found in many fantasy systems, where it is typically the fast and easy magic that corrupts. Early Dragonlance had faster level progression for dark mages, Warhammer has the risk of chaos, and the less said about Athas Defilers, the better.

    The proverbial (or literal) deal with the devil has always been a huge and very effective storytelling trope, so you may want to keep that floating at the back of your mind, when you design your system.
    Last edited by Misereor; 2022-08-02 at 02:48 AM.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    Welcome to Shadowrun! (or cyberpunk in general.)
    You are pretty much describing how combat drugs are treated.
    The problem is, while drugs have their place in Punk to no small part because of the side effects and the accompaning slf-destructive recklessness, i have only ever seen one character in SR actually using them.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    The problem is, while drugs have their place in Punk to no small part because of the side effects and the accompaning slf-destructive recklessness, i have only ever seen one character in SR actually using them.
    Makes sense.
    If it's a campaign where players can start out with a million ¥, combat drugs make no difference, meaning no impact and thus no incentive. In that case you either need a street level game or to boost the drugs substantially, or players will only use them for a laugh.

    Luckily it's much easier for fantasy, but the same principle goes. If your players are running around with portable holes full of artifacts, why would they need potions that provide low level effects, especially if there are also long-time detrimental effects. In that scenario, all you have done is to remove potions as a viable option in your game.


    ...Or in storytelling terms: You can't have a deal with the devil story without some kind of temptation.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    Welcome to Shadowrun! (or cyberpunk in general.)
    You are pretty much describing how combat drugs are treated.

    The proverbial (or literal) deal with the devil has always been a huge and very effective storytelling trope, so you may want to keep that floating at the back of your mind, when you design your system.
    Yes, the description of this aspect of the seting has a lot of Cyberpunk trappings, in a rennaissance world. It is easy to read something like the alchemist guilds as very similar to Shadowrun's megacorporations, for instance. I am aware of that. There will be other elements (I want dinosaurs, and right now, I am thinking hard about turning the whole thing into something more akin to a planetary romance world, with earth cultures from different cultures and eras transfered to the new world by "G.O.D.", who maybe or maybe not a planetary sized AI supercomputer), that will have another angle, to create a multi-faceted setting. I am less interested in "Potion World" than in a world, that has an unusual high amount of potions in it.

    I don't "tell stories" though - I enable them to develop naturally. If the players want to engage with potions, they can, if they don't they don't. If they do, there should be instruments in place to handle the outcome, but I find it a lot more rewarding to prepare the current state of any affair than to d´predetermine its outcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satinavian View Post
    The problem is, while drugs have their place in Punk to no small part because of the side effects and the accompaning slf-destructive recklessness, i have only ever seen one character in SR actually using them.
    In Shadowrun 5e, a specific combination of designer drugs catering to your specific needs, implants that bolster the effect of the stuff or protect you from withdrawl and further addiction and some incredibly cheap, but effective drugs made drug use extremely useful. Face characters, and specifically deckers could get brutal boni. I haven't seen that many of these characters, but mostly because they were cheesy as hell.
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jester View Post
    However, questions, I hope you can answer:
    1. Are there any good third party sources about potions, alchemy etc. you can recommend? This is more about finding new stuff to add to the game or get inspired by.
    2. How would you handle side effects of potion addiction, or side effects? Are there any good rules about potential side effects or addiction?
    3. When we are talking alchemists, the elephant in the room is black powder, and therefore bombs and firearms (at least very simple ones, I am more interested in medieval handgonnes and those cute throwable bombs with a burning fuse than early modern muskets or even rifles). Have you any experiences/recommendations for using firearms in D&D?
    4. What is the worst thing that could happen?
    1) I've played a lot of games with alchemy and addictive substances, but all the best stuff are individual item entries scattered across numerous different games & modules. As far as making things, I'd recommend looking at a real book of recipes or chemistry. The interesting parts, or at least parts easiest to gamify, are resource management (we have X, Y and Z, what do we make of them?), mixing ingredient to find new recipes via trial and error (what happens if we mix X and Y?) and playing logic games with ingredients (given known properties of X and Y, what kind and amount of stuff do we need to make Z?)

    2) Two chief ways to do this: one, each potion has its own rules. Amount of consumption required for addiction, amount of time required until withdrawal kicks in and quality of withdrawal symptoms or side effects all vary. Two, all consumption of magic potions adds to a single score such as "magical contamination". Magical contamination is periodically checked and may cause all kinds of effects, some desireable, some not, some permanent, some reversible by consuming another potion.

    3) I've had exactly zero problems incorporating explosives and firearms up to early modern period to my D&D-like games. Compared to other weapons, firearms are more damaging / capable of penetrating armor than bows or crossbows, but take longer to reload and are noisier. They are typically fired at the beginning of combat to gain an edge before going into melee. Black powder explosives (etc.) are mundane equivalent to fireball. (Material components for fireball are a spoof on black powder anyway.)

    4) The likely worst thing is your players being a bunch of negative nellies who stop using potions without even trying the expanded gameplay because they hate the idea of spending any more effort. The actual worst thing is teaching enough actual chemistry to your players that they build a bomb or something. The difference is that the likely worst thing can happen with any rules change that even slightly inconvenience your players, while the actual worst things take a lot more effort & fidelity than you are likely to put in, plus a particular sort of player too. Negative nellies are a much more common breed than people who are inspired to do radical things by games.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    The original question is a major subplot in Zack Pike's "Orconomics."

    Which everyone should read.

    https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/25326486
    Out of wine comes truth, out of truth the vision clears, and with vision soon appears a grand design. From the grand design we can understand the world. And when you understand the world, you need a lot more wine.


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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Our houserule about potions was that their fast healing left terrible scarring and also didn't do nothing about the PTSD. With time, veteran adenturers looked and acted like Marv from Sin City.

    What if the harm was as much part of the addiction as the healing? With time fighters would get into more and more risky and self-destructive behaviors to get a bigger "kick".

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    If we take base 5e as an example, you need to up the effects of the potions to make them worthwhile to deal with the drawbacks. No, seriously. I am not taking a minor insanity and addiction/fatigue rolls for 2d4 HP of healing. And I am not taking the potion because my character would think it would be a good experience. Because as logical controllers of virtual characters, we can be perfectly logical. We would not split up for a search but rather hoover over an area for 5x the time to reduce the chance of being ambushed alone. That is a strategy normally only well trained soldiers do. Not five borderliners with books and swords.

    I would make it some way to upgrade your character. 5e example.

    A draught of giant's strength buffs your Strength, Dexterity and Constitution by 5 points. It gives 2d10 temporary HP as it numbs your nervous system. You gain Darkvision 60 ft (or extend your Darkvision by 30 ft). Lastly you can choose one option from the spell 'Enhance Ability' (basically advantage to one set of rolls, plus a misc effect).

    If you succeed on five Con saves (DC 13 up to 18) you are immune to its drawbacks from now on. Furthermore you gain a bit of experience because you overcame a personal task. But the drawback should be focussed on an area the potion does NOT necessarily enhance.

    For the next hour you have disadvantage on Wis, Int and Dex checks. Your jittery limbs impart a -1d4 penalty on attack rolls. Repeated use on the same day incurs fatigue.

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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Well it would be a convenient reason for adventurers to keep adventuring beyond the point they become rich and famous.
    Roll for it
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    Default Re: What if... potions were cheap, but also addictive?

    Worst case the addicted PC(s) consume all available potions. In the case of Healing the PC(s) would always be physically perfect but in mental shambles as the "rush" of healing only last with the initial swig regardless of injury. Outside of being injured the PC(s) would only be chasing a sensation that would quickly deplete Healing potions. Eventually they deplete that resource and have to face lasting injury without

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