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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Inspired by the bag of devouring, here’s the first 2 features and thoughts for others- feedback welcome!

    The Devourer Patron
    This entity, believed by some to be the Tarrasque and by others the voracious entity connected to bags of devouring, sometimes empowers those lucky enough to escape its grasp. It grants terrifying powers which range from convenient but gross to deadly and insanity inducing.

    Bonus Spells
    1 Absorb Elements, Tasha’s Caustic Brew
    3 Enlarge Reduce, Rope Trick
    5 Blink, Pulse Wave
    7 Faithful Hound, Secret Chest
    9 Legend Lore, Passwall

    Eldritch Orifice
    Beginning at first level you are gifted a grotesque feeding orifice, such as a remora like mouth on your palm or a wide maw on your abdomen. You learn the Primal Savagery Cantrip as a Warlock Cantrip and can add your Charisma bonus to its damage. While the orifice is not normally apparent, when you take the attack action you can cast this cantrip in place of one of your attacks.
    Alternatively you can make this bite attack as a bonus action when you take the attack action or cast a spell, when you do so the target is grappled on a hit with an escape DC equal to your Spell DC. You can use the bite in this way a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus.

    Extradimensional Gullet
    At 6th level, as an action you can use your Eldritch Orifice to consume up to 125 cubic feet of unattended, inanimate material which is stored in an extradimensional space. No individual item can be more than 5 ft on a side, though you can bend, fold, or mold objects to fit this dimension limit (like bodies). Non-magical animal or vegetable matter is destroyed after 1 hour. Any undestroyed materials can be regurgitated as an action in the same condition they were consumed.

    Level 10- probably something that makes you count as large while grappling and a bonus to damage against enemies grappled by you.

    Level 14
    Considering something in the vein of wild barb’s spell recharging, except you destroy what’s in your extra dimensional gullet and use GP value or hit dice to determine how big of a spell slot it can confer (1st to 5th). I want it to seem a little like the Power Cosmic, maybe even giving a temp slot to the creature to cast a spell you know.
    Last edited by BerzerkerUnit; 2022-07-28 at 07:24 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    Eldritch Orifice
    Beginning at first level you are gifted a grotesque feeding orifice, such as a remora like mouth on your palm or a wide maw on your abdomen. You learn the Primal Savagery Cantrip as a Warlock Cantrip and can add your Charisma bonus to its damage. While the orifice is not normally apparent, when you take the attack action you can cast this cantrip in place of one of your attacks.
    Alternatively you can make this bite attack as a bonus action when you take the attack action or cast a spell, when you do so the target is grappled on a hit with an escape DC equal to your Spell DC. You can use the bite in this way a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus.
    Attempting to clean up the text:

    Eldritch Orifice
    Beginning at first level you grow a grotesque feeding orifice, such as a remora like mouth on your palm or a wide maw on your abdomen. You learn the Primal Savagery cantrip, which counts as as a Warlock Cantrip for you. When you cast this spell, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of +1). Moreover, when you take the attack action you can cast Primal Savagery in place of one of your attacks.

    When you attack or cast a spell as an action, you can cast this cantrip as a bonus action. On a hit the target is grappled. The target can make an Acrobatics (Dexterity) or Athletics (Strength) check as an action against your spell save DC, ending the condition on a success. You can use your cantrip in this manner a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and regain all uses at the end of a long rest.

    Anchoring Gullet
    By 10th level, your feeding orifice can pull hard enough to stabile you against grabbing, as well as the attempts of other creatures to escape your maw. You count as one size larger for the purposes of initiating, maintaining, and escaping a grapple, as well as for moving during a grapple. If you are small or smaller you count as Large for these purposes instead.


    Separate from my attempt to clean up the text, I think the portion that lets you cast Primal Savagery instead of an attack is a balance issue. You'd need to either be a bladelock or dip into warlock from a class that gets Extra Attack before taking the attack action to cast Primal Savagery has a different result from casting it normally. I the case of the bladelock I think that they need help with their weapon rather than a replacement for it, and in the case of dipping I think the warlock is enough dip bait as it is.

    The BA attack on the other hand I think is a nice step up from the War Cleric's knockoff of extra attack. Cantrips scale, so it'll still be relevant when the martials get Extra Attach (or from the point a cleric can reasonably maintain a Spiritual Weapon through combat).

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Attempting to clean up the text:

    Eldritch Orifice
    Beginning at first level you grow a grotesque feeding orifice, such as a remora like mouth on your palm or a wide maw on your abdomen. You learn the Primal Savagery cantrip, which counts as as a Warlock Cantrip for you. When you cast this spell, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of +1). Moreover, when you take the attack action you can cast Primal Savagery in place of one of your attacks.

    When you attack or cast a spell as an action, you can cast this cantrip as a bonus action. On a hit the target is grappled. The target can make an Acrobatics (Dexterity) or Athletics (Strength) check as an action against your spell save DC, ending the condition on a success. You can use your cantrip in this manner a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and regain all uses at the end of a long rest.

    Anchoring Gullet
    By 10th level, your feeding orifice can pull hard enough to stabile you against grabbing, as well as the attempts of other creatures to escape your maw. You count as one size larger for the purposes of initiating, maintaining, and escaping a grapple, as well as for moving during a grapple. If you are small or smaller you count as Large for these purposes instead.


    Separate from my attempt to clean up the text, I think the portion that lets you cast Primal Savagery instead of an attack is a balance issue. You'd need to either be a bladelock or dip into warlock from a class that gets Extra Attack before taking the attack action to cast Primal Savagery has a different result from casting it normally. I the case of the bladelock I think that they need help with their weapon rather than a replacement for it, and in the case of dipping I think the warlock is enough dip bait as it is.

    The BA attack on the other hand I think is a nice step up from the War Cleric's knockoff of extra attack. Cantrips scale, so it'll still be relevant when the martials get Extra Attach (or from the point a cleric can reasonably maintain a Spiritual Weapon through combat).
    The attack replacement is a more limited version of the Bladesinger Wizard L6 feature. But it’s irrelevant until extra attack is gained. A strict reading of thirsting blade would preclude using this feature, any other martial would see no noticeable difference until L6 bc of the delay the warlock dip inflicts to acquiring extra attack.

    It is acid damage which is a minor upgrade but when compared to GFBBB cantrips, a downgrade in all ways.
    Last edited by BerzerkerUnit; 2022-07-30 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    The attack replacement is a more limited version of the Bladesinger Wizard L6 feature. But it’s irrelevant until extra attack is gained. A strict reading of thirsting blade would preclude using this feature,
    Thank for for pointing out my error, but this does mean it this aspect of the 1st level feature is irrelevant to single class warlocks.

    If the intent was to allow the warlock to cast Primal Savagery twice in one turn, you do "take the attack action or cast a spell" the first time you cast it as an action, and therefore qualify to cast it again as a bonus action as described. And since Primal Savagery is "a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" this fits perfectly fine with the default rules for casting spells as a bonus action.

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    any other martial would see no noticeable difference until L6 bc of the delay the warlock dip inflicts to acquiring extra attack.
    I was thinking of a martial taking the warlock dip after 11th level or so, at which point the cantrip deals 3d10+Cha damage on a hit. Admittedly it has a lower chance to hit than a magic weapon with a +1 or higher bonus, but it still feels like a balance issue.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Thank for for pointing out my error, but this does mean it this aspect of the 1st level feature is irrelevant to single class warlocks.

    If the intent was to allow the warlock to cast Primal Savagery twice in one turn, you do "take the attack action or cast a spell" the first time you cast it as an action, and therefore qualify to cast it again as a bonus action as described. And since Primal Savagery is "a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" this fits perfectly fine with the default rules for casting spells as a bonus action.

    I was thinking of a martial taking the warlock dip after 11th level or so, at which point the cantrip deals 3d10+Cha damage on a hit. Admittedly it has a lower chance to hit than a magic weapon with a +1 or higher bonus, but it still feels like a balance issue.
    Thank you again for your feedback!

    The only martial I can think of actually doing this would be Paladin since they're the only martial likely to have invested heavily in Cha.

    Looking at paladin, using this in place of their regular attack looks a little like a bum deal since they'd be forgoing their opportunity to smite, can't use PAM or GWM, etc. 3d10+Cha acid is nice, but they'd also need a magic spellfocus to increase the to hit which they aren't likely using since they're probably 2 handing or sword/boarding. They could gem their weapon which won't provide a bonus or take war caster (still no bonus), but that's another investment either way. And this assumes Multiclassing is allowed. Throwing it as a bonus action a few times a day with the grapple rider is a nice bump, but I think you'd be building around it as a Lockadin, which is already an extremely favorable MC combo, though not as much as the steroid riddled Sorcadin. For example: a Sorcadin 11 with PAM could smite for something like 20d8s when they nova, even more for the lockadin, but they'd lose ~1/3 of their dice using this cantrip instead.

    I've said this before and I know a lot of folks don't like it, but MC is an optional rule, whether it's a prevailing norm or not, and I think there's a lot more fun to be had designing something coherent within its class, balanced against itself and broadly applicable norms (+X damage/rd, Prof uses/day, etc) than trying to whiteroom every possible MC combination.

    Further, I think things that balanced alone but "broken" in MC combos are actually kinda good for the game in that respect. They expand the theorycrafting meta allowing for more diversity. I've had some push back on this idea, almost always slippery slopes likened to infinite wishes at level 1 being exactly the same as this or that fairly straightforward combo (like Warlock 3, sorcerer 3 effectively replicating Sorc capstone leading to coffeelock which = infinite spell slots, as if time where never going to be a concern... and being limited to 2nd level spells at level 6 wasn't a huge nerf).

    I digress. If you think it's too strong, I encourage you to try and break this however you can and compare such dipped builds to some of the top end burst builds.

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    I feel the need to apologize in case this ends up being more my material than yours. However, I don't find it really helpful to go "this feels icky" without providing some sort of guideline for what I think could be beneficial. Something useful instead of pure complaining, I guess is what I feel I'm trying to provide. I realize the line between "overbearing" and "helpful ideas" differs between people.
    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    I've said this before and I know a lot of folks don't like it, but MC is an optional rule, whether it's a prevailing norm or not, and I think there's a lot more fun to be had designing something coherent within its class, balanced against itself and broadly applicable norms (+X damage/rd, Prof uses/day, etc) than trying to whiteroom every possible MC combination.
    While I have dedicated more words to my other concern, I'm going to focus on this this now.

    If you can't get extra attack replacing one attack made as part of the attack action to cast something that requires an action...does nothing. The feature includes something which provides zero benefit while single classed. I therefore don't consider it coherent within the warlock class.

    So what's the benefit in adding this extra text which opens up at least the possibly to weirdness to MC characters?


    Also, reading back across the subclass, I don't think the devourer manages any more survivability than the hexblade does, and the sterytype for the hexblade is that they tend to go down really easily. Maybe add a bit onto Extradimensional Gullet to allow some form of healing or THP from it? THP could more easily be applied to 5 minute adventuring days.

    Ex:
    If during a short or long rest you fill the maw with a sufficient quantity of organic material, you gain temporary hit points equal to your warlock level at the end of the rest. The material fed to the maw doesn't need to be something you could digest yourself, but it does need to contain enough nutrients to sustain for one day four beasts or humanoids of your size capable of digesting the provided material.

    This would grant a consistent combat benefit from the 6th level feature, and could support some roleplay opportunities involved in getting enough food to activate the benefit if the player wants.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2022-08-01 at 09:54 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: 5e warlock Patron: Devourer

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I feel the need to apologize in case this ends up being more my material than yours. However, I don't find it really helpful to go "this feels icky" without providing some sort of guideline for what I think could be beneficial. Something useful instead of pure complaining, I guess is what I feel I'm trying to provide. I realize the line between "overbearing" and "helpful ideas" differs between people.
    While I have dedicated more words to my other concern, I'm going to focus on this this now.

    If you can't get extra attack replacing one attack made as part of the attack action to cast something that requires an action...does nothing. The feature includes something which provides zero benefit while single classed. I therefore don't consider it coherent within the warlock class.

    So what's the benefit in adding this extra text which opens up at least the possibly to weirdness to MC characters?
    Aloha again, I realize going back over the thread I did not communicate clearly.

    Warlocks sacrifice more than most for martial proficiency. Looking at say, a bladelock 5 that wants to focus on melee (with Eldritch smite and improved pact blade) vs Paladin 5, I'd argue the paladin is leaps and bounds ahead. The warlock is rewarded for this low tier deficit with the promise of high level spells and more options as they advance.

    When I mentioned a "Strict Reading" of thirsting blade my intention was to present a DM opt out if the idea of this feature's availability at level 5 was a bridge too far, but I think it would be for than fair to infer that the extra text RE extra attacks is intended to work with Thirsting Blade as it would any other extra attack source. However, from levels 5-10 (the most common place for campaigns to be played and end) the net damage increase is likely 1d10 vs just making another attack and it undermines your ability to Eldritch Smite (not that your 2 slot limit isn't enough). Compare this at level 5 to the broader utility of the Bladesinger feature 6th and I think the extra level of availability isn't a big deal given the difference in power between lock/Wiz.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post


    Also, reading back across the subclass, I don't think the devourer manages any more survivability than the hexblade does, and the sterytype for the hexblade is that they tend to go down really easily. Maybe add a bit onto Extradimensional Gullet to allow some form of healing or THP from it? THP could more easily be applied to 5 minute adventuring days.

    Ex:
    If during a short or long rest you fill the maw with a sufficient quantity of organic material, you gain temporary hit points equal to your warlock level at the end of the rest. The material fed to the maw doesn't need to be something you could digest yourself, but it does need to contain enough nutrients to sustain for one day four beasts or humanoids of your size capable of digesting the provided material.

    This would grant a consistent combat benefit from the 6th level feature, and could support some roleplay opportunities involved in getting enough food to activate the benefit if the player wants.
    I had actually been revisiting the L14 feature I mentioned in the OP and was considering building it up in stages, with level 10 expanding the space to 10ft cube and offering a healing option by destroying nonmagical stuff in the gullet and calculating it out as 1hp:10gp destroyed 1/day, so you could full heal yourself pretty casually.

    At level 14 you'd be able to swallow creatures you've grappled whole (limit 1 at a time) and using the consumption feature would deal a bunch of damage (~1/2 fiendlock14) and self heal. Still workshopping. But as always, feedback is appreciated.

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