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  1. - Top - End - #511
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    I, for one; am tired of "Game is Product" rather than "Product is Game".

    Game is Product means everything has to be "monetized" from books, to dice, to online content, with an endless stream of new material to keep your money rolling in. I guess some call it the "lifestyle game".

    Product is Game means the company makes a game and then sell it to you. To make money, they need to sell more games.

    See the difference?
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  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    I, for one; am tired of "Game is Product" rather than "Product is Game".

    Game is Product means everything has to be "monetized" from books, to dice, to online content, with an endless stream of new material to keep your money rolling in. I guess some call it the "lifestyle game".

    Product is Game means the company makes a game and then sell it to you. To make money, they need to sell more games.

    See the difference?
    1) Why is "New Material for Existing Game" instead of "New Game" a bad thing though? I don't need New Game (at least, not yet.)

    2) Considering that we're up to anywhere from half a decade to a decade between game releases, expecting them to not sell any supplemental material in between isn't terribly realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #513
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BardGirl

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    I generally don't change things unless I see a good reason to. That was part of the reason I skipped 4e entirely--I didn't dislike it or even know that much about it, I just didn't feel like relearning a system I already had a grasp on.

    And honestly, not that much about the new edition inspires or appeals to me that much, based on both the actual previews and the direction recent supplements have moved in general. Not fervent hatred (I don't really do that as much as I did), more of an "eh, not for me" which I'm happy to realise I'm wrong on.

    I get a repeated feeling of fixing what wasn't broken (backgrounds), the game becoming more corporate (blanding out anything even slightly controversial in the lore to avoid Twitterstorms, the move to "every race is a big happy family with every other", the very anemic and money-grubbing new setting books after 5e Eberron got it right first time), and elementary balance errors or mechanical sloppiness (Silvery Barbs) at a time when the devs should really know their system better. At the same time, there's no sign of the mechanical innovation and branching out that we really ought to be seeing at a late stage in the game's life, with Nice Harmless Drow seeming to be a much bigger priority than heaving a psion class out the door when it was half-ready five years ago.

    If it doesn't impress I'll probably either use my current modified 5e, or give something else a shot whenever I run a new game. If D&D moves away from what I want to chase what the majority seem to want....then that's okay!
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  4. - Top - End - #514
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuresun View Post
    the move to "every race is a big happy family with every other"
    That's a pretty unfair characterization of what they're doing. All they've done is remove a race as being a monolith that has an overarching type that all in that race must share unless explicitly stated otherwise. Now, if your setting has goblins hating elves, it can be for world reasons and maybe specific to a region or tribe due to their history, instead of "all goblins are evil and hate elves".

  5. - Top - End - #515
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadBear View Post
    That's a pretty unfair characterization of what they're doing. All they've done is remove a race as being a monolith that has an overarching type that all in that race must share unless explicitly stated otherwise.
    Now you can expect to logically try a combination that “the meta” hasn’t forced you into.

    I am somewhat reluctant just because of my recent 5e investments. I am also interested in the direction they’re taking some things. But one can never have too much of one’s favorite hobby…
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  6. - Top - End - #516
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    I guess I'm cautiously optimistic for the most part. Don't mind linking stats with backgrounds (which is what PF2e does, as I'm sure has been pointed out in this thread enough times), but not allowing for customization there limits the choices of those backgrounds to certain classes to avoid MAD. They'll change up what they already have in a bit, I'm sure, so I'm just in a "wait and see" mode.

  7. - Top - End - #517
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9heavenspress View Post
    I guess I'm cautiously optimistic for the most part. Don't mind linking stats with backgrounds (which is what PF2e does, as I'm sure has been pointed out in this thread enough times), but not allowing for customization there limits the choices of those backgrounds to certain classes to avoid MAD. They'll change up what they already have in a bit, I'm sure, so I'm just in a "wait and see" mode.
    The layout in the UA doesn't make it obvious, but the backgrounds listed are just examples of what you could build. You can mix-and-match the elements of your background (ability score increase, skill proficiency x2, tool proficiency, language, feat, and equipment) as much as you want, and then name your background whatever you want.

    EDIT: I find it helpful to think of One D&D backgrounds not as a new interpretation of 5E backgrounds, but rather as the header for "all the stuff that isn't race and class."
    Last edited by GooeyChewie; 2022-09-28 at 01:20 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #518
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by GooeyChewie View Post
    The layout in the UA doesn't make it obvious, but the backgrounds listed are just examples of what you could build. You can mix-and-match the elements of your background (ability score increase, skill proficiency x2, tool proficiency, language, feat, and equipment) as much as you want, and then name your background whatever you want.

    EDIT: I find it helpful to think of One D&D backgrounds not as a new interpretation of 5E backgrounds, but rather as the header for "all the stuff that isn't race and class."
    Agreed.

    Part of my feedback to them was to be as blatant as possible that Build Your Own Background was the default (or at the very least, preface every mechanical aspect of each background with "Suggested" i.e. "Suggested Ability Score Increases" and "Suggested Feat."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) Why is "New Material for Existing Game" instead of "New Game" a bad thing though? I don't need New Game (at least, not yet.)

    2) Considering that we're up to anywhere from half a decade to a decade between game releases, expecting them to not sell any supplemental material in between isn't terribly realistic.
    In a sense, D&D has always been essentially a Gatcha game. Pretty much any living ttrpg is. Once you've lured in the majority of the interested people all you have left is "this shiny new thing that let's you be cooler than you were". Well, that and adventures sold to those who either dont have the time or desire to make their own.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  10. - Top - End - #520
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    I, for one; am tired of "Game is Product" rather than "Product is Game".

    Game is Product means everything has to be "monetized" from books, to dice, to online content, with an endless stream of new material to keep your money rolling in. I guess some call it the "lifestyle game".

    Product is Game means the company makes a game and then sell it to you. To make money, they need to sell more games.

    See the difference?
    So you don't play any Table Top RPGs in general or?....

    Cause looking at 5e I have like 25 books, out of realistically 39.

    Looking at my 3.5 I had 50+ out of who knows because I didn't follow any published settings but Eberron.

    2nd Edition I had 40+ out of I don't even want to try and guess...

    I have similar types of breakdowns for other systems. I own all 23 Deadlands: HoE books, I have the entire 2nd Ed V:tM collection and the new books...

    This isn't a new behavior.

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Brookshw's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    1) Why is "New Material for Existing Game" instead of "New Game" a bad thing though? I don't need New Game (at least, not yet.)
    Depends how they manage power creep. I'd say 5e has done very well in that regard, I'd much rather the push accessories and adventures and take their time balancing and testing new mechanics.
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  12. - Top - End - #522
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    The solution here is fairly obvious, is it not?
    Perhaps not. I can see a few possible responses: "Then I just won't buy the online product," or, "Download your purchased online products," or, "Make your own physical copies with a printer," or...

    Only the first one actualy is guaranteed to work, though. A lot of online sources are impractical to impossible to download, and printing out a PDF of a relatively slim book can be quite expensive. And very time consuming. And leaves you with a physical product more in line with the cheapy stuff that was the earliest D&D folios of leaflets that you self-assembled into binders. But at prices higher than you paid for 3.5 books, or even early 5e books.

  13. - Top - End - #523
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel_Kitsune View Post
    So you don't play any Table Top RPGs in general or?....

    Cause looking at 5e I have like 25 books, out of realistically 39.

    Looking at my 3.5 I had 50+ out of who knows because I didn't follow any published settings but Eberron.

    2nd Edition I had 40+ out of I don't even want to try and guess...

    I have similar types of breakdowns for other systems. I own all 23 Deadlands: HoE books, I have the entire 2nd Ed V:tM collection and the new books...

    This isn't a new behavior.
    Well, I play a lot more 1 book and done style games, both wargames and TTRPGs. I was turned off of the carousel of D&D, Shadowrun, Warhammer 40K, and others constant edition churn and splat booking it long ago.

    However, I still play D&D 5E and other systems with a ton of books. I just don't GM them for the most part.
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  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Every single UA they publish makes me even less excited. It's clear that they have no overall vision or design ethos and haven't figured out how to implement things without just throwing lots of BS at it. And the changes to movement make me think they're just chasing the "cutting edge" (aka PF2e). Which is a sign that things are going downhill fast.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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  15. - Top - End - #525
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Eh, I don't think the movement change will stick. Needing an action to jump is a pretty big departure from what came before, and as was pointed out with the Misty Step example, just serves to hose martials further.

    As for a vision/design ethos - Class Groupings qualify in my eyes, it shows that they have an overall goal for what the classes in each group should be known for. We saw how much this benefited the Ranger, and it's likely to do the same for the Monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  16. - Top - End - #526
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Eh, I don't think the movement change will stick. Needing an action to jump is a pretty big departure from what came before, and as was pointed out with the Misty Step example, just serves to hose martials further.

    As for a vision/design ethos - Class Groupings qualify in my eyes, it shows that they have an overall goal for what the classes in each group should be known for. We saw how much this benefited the Ranger, and it's likely to do the same for the Monk.
    The sheer fact that they thought it was worth putting out as part of a UA tells me they don't understand their own product at all. Ie throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what BS they can slip by people.

    And class groupings aren't really much of a vision. I'm talking about vision for the product as a whole, the "what do we want this game to be about" (because the vision that was there has been thrown out the window in favor of "more power creep"), not small mechanical tweaks.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2022-09-30 at 11:02 AM.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  17. - Top - End - #527
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I'm talking about vision for the product as a whole, the "what do we want this game to be about" (because the vision that was there has been thrown out the window in favor of "more power creep"), not small mechanical tweaks.
    The 2014 original was no less a hodgepodge of sacred cows, experiments and reactions to previous edition feedback than this is. As has been every edition.

    The only one with a truly unified design ethos was 4e; the problem was that the ethos they landed on was "tabletop MMO" and that went over like a lead balloon.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #528
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    After the race origin and expert classes, I still can't decide if I love or hate it.

    I like some of the changes, I don't mind some of the changes, but there aren't any (so far) that I cannot stand.

    Leaning toward liking it.

  19. - Top - End - #529
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Now with some new stuff out I didn't like everything they did nor did I expect to, but overall so far I have a positive vibe.
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  20. - Top - End - #530
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Now seeing the direction the UAs are taking, not as apprehensive as I once was. I probably wont bother with more than the minimum of books however, given the quality of setting and adventure books over the last few years.
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