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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I like concentration as is, but a few spells that require it (barkskin!) should not have it.
    Concur. The mechanic is fine but it's being applied far too widely at present.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Concur. The mechanic is fine but it's being applied far too widely at present.
    I wouldn't say far too widely, but improperly. There are some spells that should absolutely require it that don't (eg forcecage) and some that shouldn't require it (eg barkskin). Personally, I think that concentration is simultaneously too easy to break (for monsters, but this is minor since so few actually use it) and too hard to break (for more optimized PCs).

    But forcecage needs a rethink IMO anyway. It's anti-fun.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I... and too hard to break (for more optimized PCs).
    When I played an unoptimized (no res wis Con{1}, no war caster) spell caster the break in concentration was far too common in my experience.
    Cast spell, get hit, miss the save, nobody has to save versus Spirit Guardians (for example, since the save is on their turn). (As but one example)

    There's a good reason to optimize if you want the spell to work.
    Spoiler: about a couple of egregious cases where a 60+ HP hit didn't break Conc
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    ( Dil's "cut damage in half tattoo once per long rest" was just icing on the cake in the late game where I was able to make a save that, with the amount of damage inflicted, normally she could not have).


    Plenty of folks don't try to optimize for concentration maintenance.

    {1} Correction thanks to Psyren
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-08-01 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    We ruled barkskin doesn't need concentration ages ago.

    I've considered removing it outright in our current campaign, but that's probably because we're caster-heavy at the moment.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    When I played an unoptimized (no res wis, no war caster) spell caster the break in concentration was far too common in my experience.
    Cast spell, get hit, miss the save, nobody has to save versus Spirit Guardians (for example, since the save is on their turn). (As but one example)

    There's a good reason to optimize if you want the spell to work.
    Spoiler: about a couple of egregious cases where a 60+ HP hit didn't break Conc
    Show
    ( Dil's "cut damage in half tattoo once per long rest" was just icing on the cake in the late game where I was able to make a save that, with the amount of damage inflicted, normally she could not have).


    Plenty of folks don't try to optimize for concentration maintenance.
    Right. What I'm concerned about is when people do optimize for it. In the unoptimized case, everything's fine. NBD. But the way that caster defenses and concentration optimization stacks, it's really easy to basically be immune to losing concentration on anything less than about a 30 damage hit. And most creatures scale via attacks, not raw damage per hit. Meaning that nothing but those big single-attack bruisers (who are very vulnerable to other means of not hitting) has a hope of breaking concentration.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    This was my problem with it, certainly. Everybody was a martial adept. It is the same problem that points-based systems have for me. But at least points-based systems have enormous flexibility to customize your everything to make up for the fact that everything uses the exact same subsystem. (There's more nuance to this than I can cram into a short reply, and I doubt anybody wants to read an essay right here and now. Hopefully it's clear enough.)
    My group found the 4e warrior defender/striker types to be incredibly samey outside their class specific mark/bonus damage mechanics. They thought the casters were super samey too, being mostly area/single attacks with ok damage or crap damage and a rider. Except the fighter 'come and get it' that we referred to as the gravity shift fighter spell.

    The person who tried bard got pretty pissed. Had taken a bow, implement, and weapon powers by just picking what sounded good off the list. The forced switching and trying to keep up three required item to-hit bonuses just was insane.

    Warlord could be pretty unique with the ally attacks. But nobody, not even a first time rpg player with no d&d history at all, could get over the shout healing.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosnoop110 View Post
    I realize this is a stretch because not all the facts are available but how do you think you and your gaming group will handle a full-on new edition? Assuming we get one. Are you a "5E for life" kind of D&Der? Do you think 5E will have as much inertia as 3E did? I still know tables that have no intention of moving beyond 3E as a forgone conclusion.

    Just curious of your general thoughts here...
    As far as a 5.5 (or whatever they call the 2024 update) goes, I’ve liked some of the changes they’ve already shown that I’m assuming are leading up to 2024, such as flexible ability scores and more feats but I am firmly on team Short Rest so the shift to PB/LR is annoying (even if I understand the reasoning). I’ll probably be the first of my group to pick up the new PHB and read through it. If I don’t like it I won’t recommend switching and I don’t imagine anyone else in my group is likely to look into it too much unless I pester them.
    Whenever 6e comes out it’ll really depend on what the game looks like. It’s hard enough to get my group to look at another system for a one-shot so even if I like it more than 5(.5?), if I only like it a little bit more it’s probably not worth pushing.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    I got off the "new edition" train of games long ago, and am in no hurry to get back on that carousel.

    Unless it is VASTLY different than 5E, why would I change?
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It doesn't have to be the case you describe of the LR classes tyrannically grinding the group to a halt if they still have resources and the SR classes don't. The party can simply be in a situation where time is of the essence and a short rest is difficult to justify. An hour is a long time to stop and do nothing if, say, you're breaking out of (or into) a prison, or chasing down a kidnap victim as the trail grows cold, or trying to interrupt a critical ritual. But if you spend your 8 hours of active time resolving that situation then long-resting afterward is usually reasonable.

    So again, what I want isn't to nuke short rests from orbit entirely. Rather, what I want is to modify classes so that short rests are a nice-to-have for everyone, rather than the current design where they are a critical necessity for some classes and irrelevant for others.
    Thanks for clarifying/explaining.

    It has been my experience that making SR abilities into more times/LR leads to that "tyrannical halting" of the adventure. Yes, you CAN and SHOULD have time pressures where possible to make that less of a desirable trait, but WotC has demonstrated they can't do that in their own modules, and without examples of how to do that in creative ways, many DMs (me, my uncreative self, included) run out of ways to force that. With monsters and the illusion of lethal death awaiting should they press on, it only makes sense that the party who just nova'd their way past them - feeling, thus, that they've been super challenged, if the number of resources spent is any indication - would feel that stopping and waiting for all their resources to be back makes sense.

    Players are, in my experience, very good at securing a location for a rest. VERY good. To the point that it seems extremely contrived to pull out the wandering xorn that is all that can get through those defenses every time they try to wait 24 hours (having had less than an hour since their last long rest) rather than just resting 1.

    Maybe SRs need to be shorter to accommodate your other concerns, but I vastly prefer them to be encouraged by the resource attrition rate than to be deprecated to something you can just shrug off as "well, they don't restore anything useful to *me*, so the whole party had better rest or I'm useless after novaing everything I have in the first encounter, where I also overshadowed anybody who didn't have nova capability to that degree."

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Thanks for clarifying/explaining.

    It has been my experience that making SR abilities into more times/LR leads to that "tyrannical halting" of the adventure. Yes, you CAN and SHOULD have time pressures where possible to make that less of a desirable trait, but WotC has demonstrated they can't do that in their own modules, and without examples of how to do that in creative ways, many DMs (me, my uncreative self, included) run out of ways to force that. With monsters and the illusion of lethal death awaiting should they press on, it only makes sense that the party who just nova'd their way past them - feeling, thus, that they've been super challenged, if the number of resources spent is any indication - would feel that stopping and waiting for all their resources to be back makes sense.

    Players are, in my experience, very good at securing a location for a rest. VERY good. To the point that it seems extremely contrived to pull out the wandering xorn that is all that can get through those defenses every time they try to wait 24 hours (having had less than an hour since their last long rest) rather than just resting 1.

    Maybe SRs need to be shorter to accommodate your other concerns, but I vastly prefer them to be encouraged by the resource attrition rate than to be deprecated to something you can just shrug off as "well, they don't restore anything useful to *me*, so the whole party had better rest or I'm useless after novaing everything I have in the first encounter, where I also overshadowed anybody who didn't have nova capability to that degree."
    "They don't restore anything useful to *me*" is how they currently work. As I mentioned repeatedly, I don't want that.

    I'm fine, repeat, fine with them being useful. I just don't want them to be required for anyone, because that gives the DM more freedom. They don't have to worry about building in one hour breaks regardless of what is happening in the story, because failing to do so means the monk and warlock are now screwed and the fighter doesn't get their nuke back.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I wouldn't say far too widely, but improperly. There are some spells that should absolutely require it that don't (eg forcecage) and some that shouldn't require it (eg barkskin). Personally, I think that concentration is simultaneously too easy to break (for monsters, but this is minor since so few actually use it) and too hard to break (for more optimized PCs).

    But forcecage needs a rethink IMO anyway. It's anti-fun.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    When I played an unoptimized (no res wis, no war caster) spell caster the break in concentration was far too common in my experience.
    Cast spell, get hit, miss the save, nobody has to save versus Spirit Guardians (for example, since the save is on their turn). (As but one example)
    Did you mean Res Con here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Warlord could be pretty unique with the ally attacks. But nobody, not even a first time rpg player with no d&d history at all, could get over the shout healing.
    Even the Giant made fun of it
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Did you mean Res Con here?
    Yes I did, I was recalling a Wis based Caster (Cleric) and juxtaposed the two in my head. Res Con.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "They don't restore anything useful to *me*" is how they currently work. As I mentioned repeatedly, I don't want that.

    I'm fine, repeat, fine with them being useful. I just don't want them to be required for anyone, because that gives the DM more freedom. They don't have to worry about building in one hour breaks regardless of what is happening in the story, because failing to do so means the monk and warlock are now screwed and the fighter doesn't get their nuke back.
    Oh, I agree, that is the problem currently. I think the solution is to give MORE classes/subclasses SR features, NOT to make FEWER features SR-related.

    I don't think it is actually a problem for DMs to "work an hour of rest into the adventure." I think that tends to happen fairly naturally. And, if the DM and players feel they can't spare that much time, they can tweak the timing of a short rest down to whatever they feel it should be.

    Frankly, I think we need potions or even mundane items that can serve to shorten or replace short rests, too. But, again, an hour? It's a touch awkward, but not ridiculously so. If the party is using rituals, that's only 6x as long as it takes to cast one.

    Also, I am a fan of trying to structure time a bit more, using 10-minute "turns" in dungeons (inspired, I admit, by 1e rules on the subject) to both mark time, mark major actions by players, and to give some structure. And a short rest is just six turns under that, which isn't that big of a deal.

    But...again...I have trouble picturing a game where the DM had to "find time to squeeze in" short rests, but the party had any opportunity to take long rests.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Players are, in my experience, very good at securing a location for a rest. VERY good. To the point that it seems extremely contrived to pull out the wandering xorn that is all that can get through those defenses every time they try to wait 24 hours (having had less than an hour since their last long rest) rather than just resting 1.
    Probably easiest and quickest change would be to houserule LTH so it's not a ritual. Or just ban it entirely.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Probably easiest and quickest change would be to houserule LTH so it's not a ritual. Or just ban it entirely.
    My change is "it's an object that can be broken".
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't think it is actually a problem for DMs to "work an hour of rest into the adventure." I think that tends to happen fairly naturally.
    Especially because the SR rules are so forgiving. A lunch break can be a short rest.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Oh, I agree, that is the problem currently. I think the solution is to give MORE classes/subclasses SR features, NOT to make FEWER features SR-related.
    That's what I'm proposing too. Where I think we differ is that I want all SR features (new and old) to not require more than one short rest per day for the class to function. If you get 2 or more, great, and if you don't, you don't feel cheated/screwed. Psionic Energy Dice (Soulknife and Psiwar) are a great example of this - you benefit from every single SR, but if you get zero you can still contribute for a full day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't think it is actually a problem for DMs to "work an hour of rest into the adventure." I think that tends to happen fairly naturally.
    A lot of the time it does, but not always. And I think the campaigns where this is never a problem don't have anything to worry about either way, so of course they're going to concentrate their design on the tables having trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Frankly, I think we need potions or even mundane items that can serve to shorten or replace short rests, too.
    Not a potion - but Scroll of Catnap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    But...again...I have trouble picturing a game where the DM had to "find time to squeeze in" short rests, but the party had any opportunity to take long rests.
    In a lot of busy jobs, you're lucky to get 1 hour-long break per 8-hour shift. Some don't even give you 30 minutes uninterrupted (though that's illegal in many jursidictions IIRC). So it's not unheard of, and that's without taking into account any of the scenarios I mentioned earlier where time might be of the essence due to the situation itself.

    Now, I agree with you that the time per short rest can be tweaked to compensate, but that starts to run into other balance considerations like Warlocks maintaining multiple hour-long buffs when they're not supposed to be, etc.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2022-08-01 at 02:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Probably easiest and quickest change would be to houserule LTH so it's not a ritual. Or just ban it entirely.
    While I see why that's an issue, just having rooms to barricade go a long way. If the module goes out of its way to spell out that the only wandering monster available doesn't approach that room, and gives no time pressure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's what I'm proposing too. Where I think we differ is that I want all SR features (new and old) to not require more than one short rest per day for the class to function. If you get 2 or more, great, and if you don't, you don't feel cheated/screwed. Psionic Energy Dice (Soulknife and Psiwar) are a great example of this - you benefit from every single SR, but if you get zero you can still contribute for a full day.
    Yeah, that does seem to be where we differ. If that's the direction they go, it could be okay, but only if they are very careful to give resource restoration at SR as well as LR. I have seen a lot of moving things to LR with more uses, but not much that is getting smaller restorations as SRs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    A lot of the time it does, but not always. And I think the campaigns where this is never a problem don't have anything to worry about either way, so of course they're going to concentrate their design on the tables having trouble.
    My experience has been the opposite: the trouble is in justifying only taking that short rest for reasons that make sense IC when LR lets you nova the next fight, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Not a potion - but Scroll of Catnap?
    I knew there was something. Yeah, things like that being more prevalent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    In a lot of busy jobs, you're lucky to get 1 hour-long break per 8-hour shift. Some don't even give you 30 minutes uninterrupted (though that's illegal in many jursidictions IIRC). So it's not unheard of, and that's without taking into account any of the scenarios I mentioned earlier where time might be of the essence due to the situation itself.
    Adventuring is rarely that busy, and is often self-paced on a more-than-during-immediate-combat level. I have yet to see a module that creates so much time pressure that a SR is unfeasible if you clear a section of the dueon that comprises maybe three encounters at most. At MOST. Often, you can secure a locale with just one encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Now, I agree with you that the time per short rest can be tweaked to compensate, but that starts to run into other balance considerations like Warlocks maintaining multiple hour-long buffs when they're not supposed to be, etc.
    Granted, some additional thought has to go into it. Concentration goes a ways towards limiting this, but between being over-applied and other issues, that's not enough by itself. But thus is the kind of thing a good DMG would discuss alongside the possibility of changing length of short rests.

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Adventuring is rarely that busy, but sometimes it's busier. Remember, adventuring parties are special ops / Navy Seals in a lot of cases, you can't always guarantee a mandated 1 hour lunch break from your union rep when Vecna is about to ascend.

    Nova-ing two fights in a row isn't a big deal, that's a strategic choice on the part of the players. It might work out in their favor or it might not, just like stopping for an hour-long SR might work out in their favor or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Adventuring is rarely that busy, but sometimes it's busier. Remember, adventuring parties are special ops / Navy Seals in a lot of cases, you can't always guarantee a mandated 1 hour lunch break from your union rep when Vecna is about to ascend.

    Nova-ing two fights in a row isn't a big deal, that's a strategic choice on the part of the players. It might work out in their favor or it might not, just like stopping for an hour-long SR might work out in their favor or not.
    Sure. You can't always guarantee a 1-hour break happens NOW. But the DM also can arrange for natural break points before boss fights. Or for scrolls of catnap to be available. >_> <_<

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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Sure. You can't always guarantee a 1-hour break happens NOW. But the DM also can arrange for natural break points before boss fights. Or for scrolls of catnap to be available. >_> <_<
    I have a stock item that I tend to provide periodically (usually when I know there's a boss fight and no sane way to rest and it makes sense to provide them; they can be bought in some areas):

    Potion of Apprentice's Friend
    Common potion.

    This potion takes one minute to drink. After having been drunk, the user receives the benefit of a short rest.

    Special: For every such potion drunk after the first since completing a long rest, the drinker must make a Constitution saving throw with DC = 10 + 5*number of these potions drunk since the last long rest. On a failed saving throw, the drinker also gains 2 levels of exhaustion.

    ------

    What are these potions? Basically energy drinks. On meth. Think dark black coffee, juiced with massive quantities of both sugar and methamphetamines. Heroes are strong stuff, so they can survive one of them just fine. After that...bad things happen. Basically, it's a shorter time cost catnap scroll that anyone can use...at a price.

    And yes, they can stockpile these to some degree--if only 2 people need short rests and they have 4 available, they can save some for later.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2022-08-01 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Opinion: will you be reluctant or eager to switch from 5E to 6E?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Sure. You can't always guarantee a 1-hour break happens NOW. But the DM also can arrange for natural break points before boss fights. Or for scrolls of catnap to be available. >_> <_<
    Maybe they can. Or maybe the party, through their own choices/mistakes (or simple bad luck), no longer has time for that, or already burned through whatever providence they were given. (As a reminder, Catnap only works 1/LR no matter how many times it is cast.)

    Overriding that and fudging the clock is always a possibility. But DMs who choose to let the dice fall where they may are not wrong either, so long as everyone - the DM included - is having fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Maybe they can. Or maybe the party, through their own choices/mistakes (or simple bad luck), no longer has time for that, or already burned through whatever providence they were given. (As a reminder, Catnap only works 1/LR no matter how many times it is cast.)

    Overriding that and fudging the clock is always a possibility. But DMs who choose to let the dice fall where they may are not wrong either, so long as everyone - the DM included - is having fun.
    DMs should (IMO) provide the opportunity to benefit from SR and plan their adventuring days (the ones that are more set in stone, at least) to accommodate short rests. If the party doesn't take them or misses their chance because they decided to do <other thing> instead or waffled or otherwise burnt their chance, that's their problem IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Maybe they can. Or maybe the party, through their own choices/mistakes (or simple bad luck), no longer has time for that, or already burned through whatever providence they were given. (As a reminder, Catnap only works 1/LR no matter how many times it is cast.)

    Overriding that and fudging the clock is always a possibility. But DMs who choose to let the dice fall where they may are not wrong either, so long as everyone - the DM included - is having fun.
    Of course they're not doing anything wrong. However, altering the game to encourage 5 minute adventuring days in order to accommodate the players in such games isn't fixing anything. Those players will still be out of resources. And now have no time for a long rest, either.

    I'm more okay with your proposed fix than with what WotC is actually showing signs of doing. I still prefer stronger lean-in to SRs, though, myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    DMs should (IMO) provide the opportunity to benefit from SR and plan their adventuring days (the ones that are more set in stone, at least) to accommodate short rests. If the party doesn't take them or misses their chance because they decided to do <other thing> instead or waffled or otherwise burnt their chance, that's their problem IMO.
    I think we're aligned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Of course they're not doing anything wrong. However, altering the game to encourage 5 minute adventuring days in order to accommodate the players in such games isn't fixing anything. Those players will still be out of resources. And now have no time for a long rest, either.

    I'm more okay with your proposed fix than with what WotC is actually showing signs of doing. I still prefer stronger lean-in to SRs, though, myself.
    I think I'm missing something - I don't see how "there's a time limit so you can't stop for an hour" somehow "encourage 5 minutes of adventure and then resting for 8 hours. The whole point of having a timed plot is to discourage both approaches.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I don't disagree about having codified "normal rules". Defaults are important. To be honest, I do tend to run the rules (as opposed to the content such as monsters, worlds, items, etc) pretty close to stock. 5e's core resolution system actually works (for my purposes) pretty darn well used straight up. I was more talking about that extra content.

    And I'd be a bit more lax with the "decent reason" thing--it's very acceptable, for me, to hear "no, because the setting's aesthetics make it awkward" or "no, because it'd involve a lot of extra work during play".
    No arguments from me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    If you actually want a different game that could still be D&D, 6e could've had you covered.
    He he, I think my broad point is that either 6E will look like a weird rehash of previous editions or be something which barely resembles D&D. I think there is still space for other games PF2 being a good example of something a bit different, but even PF2 isn't that different from the D&D canon.

    1. Explicitly modular/sliding scale versions of different rules. You keep Short and Long Rests, for example, and the mechanical impact of each is the same, but rather than telling us "Short Rest = 1 Hour, Long Res = 8 Hours" you say that the length of time each takes is up to the DM. And you offer some guidelines ("Gritty" = 8 hour SR, 1 week LR, "Low Fantasy" = X and Y, "Heroic Fantasy = A and B" etc). You could do the same with Racial features, various class features, etc. A sliding scale with a few different stopping points. So then every game, every campaign, as part of its Session 0, would include "We're doing High Fantasy Rests, Gritty Magic Features, Low Fantasy Martial Features." And the language isn't "This is what the rule is but you can do whatever you want." The language is "These are all equally valid options depending on what kind of game you want to play."
    This is an example of something I had considered. What if you had 'simple rules', 'medium rules' and 'advanced rules' where each was more strictly codified. I.e. you specified if you were playing an advanced game and thus things became crunchier as a consequence.

    RE: Short rests

    I think the basic important arguments here are:
    #1: DMs confecting reasons to deny rests is lame and should only happen with a specific purpose in mind (in the same way putting people in a desert has a specific purpose in mind - water scarcity). It sounds almost like people are confecting rest-denial as a form of ad-hoc balancing which sounds terribad (either as the game is badly designed or just pointless malice on the parts of the DM).
    #2: Any class that is structurally SR dependent (Monks, Warlocks) is problematic at tables which don't Short Rest (never been at one of those myself).

    Honestly, I dislike LR classes. From a purely 'game mechanic' stance, 'Nova-ing' is a logical strategy (even it makes you a kind of crappy player). If the DM then punishes players for Nova-ing by denying rests, they are kind of being a crappy DM. The whole dynamic basically encourages crappy play or quite severe curtailing of player agency (i.e. static adventuring days).

    I would be inclined to push the resource management towards: Passives like Cantrips/Weapon attacks are enough to 'just win' a difficult encounter. SR abilities are designed to be nova'd every encounter which will make difficult encounters 'not difficult' but not easy. LR abilities are 'clutch' abilities designed to get players out of a pinch and aren't really expected to be used at all, especially in easy encounters.

    I was kind of annoyed when I first played a druid and the 'get spells back' was once per LR. I mean... what is the point? One extra conditional spell per day? Seems kind of lame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goobahfish View Post
    Honestly, I dislike LR classes. From a purely 'game mechanic' stance, 'Nova-ing' is a logical strategy (even it makes you a kind of crappy player). If the DM then punishes players for Nova-ing by denying rests, they are kind of being a crappy DM. The whole dynamic basically encourages crappy play or quite severe curtailing of player agency (i.e. static adventuring days).
    I disagree. I think managing resources around the uncertainty of replenishment is an important part of the problem solving process, to say nothing of game balance. If a wizard can just burn all their spell slots without concern that they might not have a resource they need, then the limits on the resource are not actually affecting the game at all and may as well not be present.

    If youre going to nova, or burn a dozen spells unlocking chests, or hunting for traps or whatever, you should have to weigh the opportunity cost of those resources not being available later when you decide to do those things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I disagree. I think managing resources around the uncertainty of replenishment is an important part of the problem solving process, to say nothing of game balance. If a wizard can just burn all their spell slots without concern that they might not have a resource they need, then the limits on the resource are not actually affecting the game at all and may as well not be present.

    If youre going to nova, or burn a dozen spells unlocking chests, or hunting for traps or whatever, you should have to weigh the opportunity cost of those resources not being available later when you decide to do those things.
    Which means there has to be an opportunity cost. Which generally means reducing the number of resources you have available. You should absolutely feel the pain if you go nova and it isn't a one-fight day. Otherwise, it's a solved game--go nova hard, early on, and anyone who can't gets left behind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I disagree. I think managing resources around the uncertainty of replenishment is an important part of the problem solving process, to say nothing of game balance. If a wizard can just burn all their spell slots without concern that they might not have a resource they need, then the limits on the resource are not actually affecting the game at all and may as well not be present.

    If youre going to nova, or burn a dozen spells unlocking chests, or hunting for traps or whatever, you should have to weigh the opportunity cost of those resources not being available later when you decide to do those things.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobahfish View Post
    RE: Short rests

    I think the basic important arguments here are:
    #1: DMs confecting reasons to deny rests is lame and should only happen with a specific purpose in mind (in the same way putting people in a desert has a specific purpose in mind - water scarcity). It sounds almost like people are confecting rest-denial as a form of ad-hoc balancing which sounds terribad (either as the game is badly designed or just pointless malice on the parts of the DM).
    #2: Any class that is structurally SR dependent (Monks, Warlocks) is problematic at tables which don't Short Rest (never been at one of those myself).
    "Your band of underdog heroes trying desperately to save the world don't always have an uninterrupted hour in a day (much less 2-3 of them!) to sit around doing nothing but shooting the breeze" is not "confecting rest-denial." It's simply having a plot with stakes and urgency, which most good ones do.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I think I'm missing something - I don't see how "there's a time limit so you can't stop for an hour" somehow "encourage 5 minutes of adventure and then resting for 8 hours. The whole point of having a timed plot is to discourage both approaches.
    If there's time for a long rest, there's time for a short rest. I am stating it for clarity, not because I think you don't know it.

    If the DM is denying access to a long rest, he might not be denying access to a short rest. Either intentionally or just by letting the dice fall where they may regarding the timing of whatever is creating time pressure. Of course, there may be time for neither. It is unusual, but actual time pressure that isn't "go go go right now" can do that.

    I see where you're coming from: if players are pacing out their LR powers they can use more often than SR powers, they may have some left when they get to that boss fight with no time for any rests at all. The trouble is, if they can pace that out, they can also pace out their SR powers. Further, I don't find the increased pressure to have 5-minute adventuring days that the pure-LR model that WotC is pushing towards with everything becoming more uses/long rest worth the rare times when a boss fight has zero chance to rest before it being left with those players who wisely kept some LR powers rather than nova-ing but where SR players would have blown everything already.

    ...that's a mess, but I'm tired enough I can't figure out how to word it better.

    Anyway. The trouble with WotC's approach is that it doesn't solve most of the problems it wants to, and what little help it gives to your very specific scenario is overshadowed by the preponderance of 5-minute adventuring days it encourages coupled to the fact that players are encouraged by the way this trains them to have nova'd away their LR resources, anyway, making the boss fight impossible (and forcing the DM's hand to grant them a LR for the sake of the fight being "fair," or ending his campaign with a downer ending because the way the rules trained them to play didn't work in his big boss encounter).

    Your suggestion of SRs restoring an LR bloc of resources is...something with potential. But I still prefer there actually be SR classes, as well. Give them some amount of LR "deeper well" of resources, perhaps, too, but don't eliminate the SR design space.

    Besides, those scrolls of catnap or energy drink potions or whatever can serve for those clutch moments when you NEED a short rest but have only 2 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    If there's time for a long rest, there's time for a short rest. I am stating it for clarity, not because I think you don't know it.
    "If there's time for you to go to bed at night, there's time for you to take an hour-long nap during your shift." It just doesn't follow.

    Long Rests typically happen at the end of the day, while Short Rests happen during it. They don't happen at the same time. And just as importantly, LR resources tend to come in greater quantities than SR ones, so you don't run out of them at the same time either.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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