What’s the Best Mundane Class?

[Maat Mons]

For the purposes of this thread, let's say that having Su or Sp abilities doesn't automatically disqualify a class from being considered mundane. But having any sort of spellcasting progression does disqualify a class, unless there's an archetype that completely gets rid of it. Also, for the purposes of this thread, let's say extracts count as spells.

Anyone want to weight in with their opinions? I've found some tier lists, but they're a little vaguer then I'd like. "Vanilla Brawler is tier 5, but the class can be tier 4 with the right archetypes." What archetypes? "The Sohei archetype makes Monk tier 4." I don't really see it.

[Eldonauran]

My vote is the Brawler with the Exemplar archetype. You've got the flexibility to pick most any combat feat you need, the ability to enhance the combat effectiveness of yourself AND others, and grant teamwork feats to others. You can pad the character feats with Item Mastery feats so that you can pick up some form of spell mimicry, or use a VMC (variant multiclass) to branch out your available options (ie, monk to get back your unarmed stuff lost with the archetype and get a ki pool).

I might be biased though. I actually played one of these before.

[Kurald Galain]

Most mundanes are decent at damage output and pretty bad at anything else. The exception here is the Rogue who gets a ton of skills and special abilities, and can deal with way more different kinds of situations than other mundanes.

And, unchained Rogue is no slouch in combat, either.

I'd add the Shifter, but I wouldn't call him mundane despite his lack of spellcasting.

[Gnaeus]

My vote is the Brawler with the Exemplar archetype. You've got the flexibility to pick most any combat feat you need, the ability to enhance the combat effectiveness of yourself AND others, and grant teamwork feats to others. You can pad the character feats with Item Mastery feats so that you can pick up some form of spell mimicry, or use a VMC (variant multiclass) to branch out your available options (ie, monk to get back your unarmed stuff lost with the archetype and get a ki pool).

I might be biased though. I actually played one of these before.

I think Brawler and Slayer look like they top the list. Brawler a bit better at fighting, Slayer better at skills. Unchained Rogue also in the running but I think a touch behind.

[vasilidor]

Slayer.
High skills, high damage.

[Eldonauran]

I think Brawler and Slayer look like they top the list. Brawler a bit better at fighting, Slayer better at skills. Unchained Rogue also in the running but I think a touch behind.

Slayer is no joke, for sure. My wife ran a Slayer through the entire Iron Gods campaign and pretty much excelled at just about everything she did. I only didn't mention it because it doesn't hold much interest for me, as I prefer versatility over pure focus.

[Gnaeus]

Slayer is no joke, for sure. My wife ran a Slayer through the entire Iron Gods campaign and pretty much excelled at just about everything she did. I only didn't mention it because it doesn't hold much interest for me, as I prefer versatility over pure focus.

Slayer is a pretty versatile class. Aside from the ability to skillmonkey, the ability for a melee character to pick up a longbow and start making full bab+ studied target +sneak attacks with it is usually better than the ability for a melee character to pick up a longbow and spend a move action to pick up martial weapon proficiency and point blank shot. I can absolutely think of scenarios where "pick any bonus feat" just wins, like "Here we are on this bridge fighting human sized opponents and I really wish I had bull rush right now". But all martial weapons + sneak is solid in a wide variety of situations. Especially when you throw in studied target. If anything, the way combat maneuvers work (like, a lot better against opponents with class levels than monsters) could make slayer more versatile than brawler. Slayer tends to be a better switch hitter (a ranged attacker who can melee, or vice versa) than brawler, despite martial flexibility.

[Maat Mons]

How does the Brawler class hold up if you're not aiming to fight unarmed and unarmored? Do you just dip a different martial class for the weapon and armor proficiencies you want?

How does Fighter with the Martial Master archetype stack up against Brawler? Obviously, Martial Master Fighter is behind on Martial Flexibility. Are there compatible archetypes that could make it a competitive choice?

I'm not very familiar with Slayer. Do you just build and play it the same as Rogue?

Slayer seems to be getting more endorsements than (Unchained) Rogue. Are there archetypes that can make Rogue more of a contender?

[TotallyNotEvil]

Unchained Rogue and Slayer are both powerhouses when it comes to "mundanes", I agree.

One that hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think would fit your criteria: Qinggong Monk. That, too, rocks pretty hard.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not very familiar with Slayer. Do you just build and play it the same as Rogue?

Basically, slayer has higher to-hit, hit points, and saving throws; rogue has more skill points, higher sneak attack, and evasion. Unchained rogue has all that plus dex to hit and damage, and free debuffs on every sneak attack. Slayer also gets all martial weapons, but that's easy enough to get from race or traits.

Also, both of them have a crapton of archetypes with unusual abilities.

[SimonMoon6]

I'll throw in one of those "archetypes that gets rid of spellcasting classes". It might not be the best, but it is one I think about a lot:

Alchemist with the Metamorph archetype.

It doesn't have a *lot* of versatility, but it has some real strength.

It is one of the rare ways in Pathfinder to have polymorph effects on yourself last a long time. At 1st level, it gets long duration Alter Self. At 5th level, it gets long duration "monstrous physique", so it can transform into a euryale and get an insane number of attacks. Of course, with any polymorph magic, there is some versatility as far as other shapes to use, but this is one of the better combat forms. And the alchemist doesn't have to change back to human form for a long time.

The metamorph still gets mutagen for stat boosts. They lose all alchemy except for mutagens, so they are a mundane class. Most people who want to play an alchemist do so for the alchemy, so this archetype may get overlooked, but it has some real potential, I think.

I think the class really peaks at 5th level and doesn't start to get much more powerful for a while, but it's pretty good at that level. I have a build in mind that involves VMC (barbarian), but I guess this thread is not about making cool builds, just discussing the classes themselves, so I won't say more about that.

The one odd thing about the alchemist (metamorph) is that they still get Brew Potion but don't have any spellcasting abilities, so they need a friend who can cast spells to help them make potions.

[KoDT69]

I've always had a strong love for the Rogue. Very useful abilities overall, lots of skills, and very effective in combat if you coordinate properly. My first character was a Halfling Rogue, and 18 years later my daughter's first character was also a Halfling Rogue. Her first game included an NPC Rogue guildmate and best friend traveling with the party for about 3 sessions. I let her run the NPC in combat with guidance, again because she was a noob. Bad dudes found out quick to keep your attention on both of them or it's gonna hurt... A lot... ;)

[Eldonauran]

Slayer is a pretty versatile class. Aside from the ability to skillmonkey, the ability for a melee character to pick up a longbow and start making full bab+ studied target +sneak attacks with it is usually better than the ability for a melee character to pick up a longbow and spend a move action to pick up martial weapon proficiency and point blank shot. I can absolutely think of scenarios where "pick any bonus feat" just wins, like "Here we are on this bridge fighting human sized opponents and I really wish I had bull rush right now". But all martial weapons + sneak is solid in a wide variety of situations. Especially when you throw in studied target. If anything, the way combat maneuvers work (like, a lot better against opponents with class levels than monsters) could make slayer more versatile than brawler. Slayer tends to be a better switch hitter (a ranged attacker who can melee, or vice versa) than brawler, despite martial flexibility.

The issue isn't whether or not a Slayer can be better than a Brawler at combat, because they absolutely can be... in the two or three areas in which they choose to FOCUS in. That is where I think my definition of versatility differs from your own. I put more weight on the ability to respond to, and be more than just 'adequate' at, then how high the numbers are that you can reach. The brawler archetype I mentioned (Exemplar) excels not only at what they do, but also makes their entire group BETTER in the various scenarios they engage in by increasing everyone's numbers.

So, nothing wrong with the Slayer, and it might be a good fit for anyone that wants that kind of spell-less ranger meets rogue feel. I was just offering my opinion on why I think the Exemplar Brawler is the best purely mundane class. It is because it fits the idea I have of the concept perfectly, that fits my play style.

How does the Brawler class hold up if you're not aiming to fight unarmed and unarmored? Do you just dip a different martial class for the weapon and armor proficiencies you want?

It can wear armor. Generally light armor and shield. They have no restrictions on using heavier armor, so feel free to multi class to pick up other proficiencies elsewhere.

How does Fighter with the Martial Master archetype stack up against Brawler? Obviously, Martial Master Fighter is behind on Martial Flexibility. Are there compatible archetypes that could make it a competitive choice?

Aside from needing an INT 13 and getting a lot more feats (about 5) than a Brawler? The Brawler gets several other abilities that mimic weapon training but are focused towards combat maneuvers. Built in weapon (scaling unarmed strike) and an additional attack per round (flurry). You can certainly build a fighter to mimic the Brawler, even with Martial Master. You'd want to multi class with a monk to do it, though that come with monk limitations.

[Gnaeus]

The issue isn't whether or not a Slayer can be better than a Brawler at combat, because they absolutely can be... in the two or three areas in which they choose to FOCUS in. That is where I think my definition of versatility differs from your own. I put more weight on the ability to respond to, and be more than just 'adequate' at, then how high the numbers are that you can reach. The brawler archetype I mentioned (Exemplar) excels not only at what they do, but also makes their entire group BETTER in the various scenarios they engage in by increasing everyone's numbers

But the thing is, in 3.5, martial versatility is not generally achieved by having a range of combat maneuvers. Brawler IS good at that i in 1000 circumstance where you suddenly need Reposition or something like that. Although Exemplar isn't really much better at that than slayer, because slayer can studied target and add his to hit bonus to maneuvers, and Exemplar gave that bonus up. Actually being flexible in 3.5 muggle combat is overwhelmingly "Can I switch from Melee to range quickly" Because thats the kind of flexibility that actually matters in a combat. And Slayer > Brawler at that. And second to that is "Can I switch quickly between these multiple weapon styles, like by dropping my pole arm and shifting quickly to TWD or THF because I need the undead bane dagger we found or this holy morningstar" And Slayer > Brawler at that too. Because having hit and damage bonuses on all martial weapons and also better armor is just more flexible than "I spend a move action to pick up 2 feats for 1 minute". And also slayer has better out of combat utility with ranger and rogue talents and more skills. The exception is if DSP is on the table and Brawler can use 2 combat feats to absorb a great maneuver and stance. Which is SUPER flexible and awesome. But not 1st party

[Eldonauran]

But the thing is, in 3.5, martial versatility is not generally achieved by having a range of combat maneuvers. Brawler IS good at that i in 1000 circumstance where you suddenly need Reposition or something like that. Although Exemplar isn't really much better at that than slayer, because slayer can studied target and add his to hit bonus to maneuvers, and Exemplar gave that bonus up. Actually being flexible in 3.5 muggle combat is overwhelmingly "Can I switch from Melee to range quickly" Because thats the kind of flexibility that actually matters in a combat. And Slayer > Brawler at that. And second to that is "Can I switch quickly between these multiple weapon styles, like by dropping my pole arm and shifting quickly to TWD or THF because I need the undead bane dagger we found or this holy morningstar" And Slayer > Brawler at that too. Because having hit and damage bonuses on all martial weapons and also better armor is just more flexible than "I spend a move action to pick up 2 feats for 1 minute". And also slayer has better out of combat utility with ranger and rogue talents and more skills. The exception is if DSP is on the table and Brawler can use 2 combat feats to absorb a great maneuver and stance. Which is SUPER flexible and awesome. But not 1st party

I am not really here to argue the minutia of the differences between the two classes because we can both invent dozens (if not more) scenarios in which either class might out perform the other, and that is where system mastery determines the winner of this 'contest'. Which, again, I am not interested in getting into. I've said my peace on what class I believe is the 'best' mundane class, and it wasn't something I just said flippantly. What I will say in response is that you seem to be overlooking that the Brawler, once it hits 6th level, is fully capable of using a swift action to pick up a proficiency feat (or any combat feat) that they might require during their turn. That gets better, and faster, as they level up. That is more than quick enough, and early enough, that it should be usable well before that undead bane dagger (which they can use already) or holy morningstar (again, something they can already wield) is acquired during normal wealth per level guidelines.

As for using 3rd party material, I don't. I tend to avoid getting involved in conversations that include it because I don't familiarize myself with the vast majority of it, nor do I plan to. I've already got a lot of head space reserved for PF1 and so many concepts built around that pool of resources that I don't need to add more to it.

[icefractal]

Probably not the best, but I've found Gunslinger surprisingly effective.
Caveat: with access to revolvers and full WBL, and once Dex-to-damage kicks in

So combat-wise, you're a lot more "robust" than most martial types. Lots of small foes? Use cones. One big foe with DR? Use clustered shot. Far away foe? There's a deed for that. High AC? Nope, you're a full-BAB class with high Dex making touch attacks, nobody who isn't specially built to counter you can avoid that. And being Dex based, you'll have a good AC yourself. Uberchargers can be stymied by chance, but Gunslingers will kick ass unless the GM custom-builds foes to stop them.

Skill wise, nothing special. But! If you're a Mysterious Stranger, you're partially Charisma-based. Having the best Diplomacy / Bluff in the party gives you as much "screen time" as having all the Knowledge and wilderness skills put together, in most campaigns.

That said, an Unchained Rogue using Merciful revolvers with Sap Adept / Sap Master, Sniper's Goggles, and some form of concealment (like smoke + Goz Mask) is stronger in most aspects and has considerably more skills.