How much does a cleric lose by giving up both domains and gaining Full BAB & D10 HD?

[animewatcha]

So following old links and guides and such and came across 'golarion cleric' from pathfinder campaign setting. A Paizo book from 3.0/3.5 days. One thing I wondered.
How good or bad the tradeoff would be if a Cleric gave up both domains (including spells and domain power) and got proficiency with diety weapon, D10 hit dice, and full BAB. I know the usual thing is to prestige class out asap on a normal cleric.

[redking]

How good or bad the tradeoff would be if a Cleric gave up both domains (including spells and domain power) and got proficiency with diety weapon, D10 hit dice, and full BAB. I know the usual thing is to prestige class out asap on a normal cleric.

I'd take it. Domains are juicy, but getting a full combat cleric that otherwise has the entire list of cleric spells (minus the domains that they would otherwise have) is a good deal. You don't even lose turn undead, only give up the domains.

Now, some people will say divine power with DMM persist is the way to go for full BAB. But you have to look at when this comes available, and it can also be dispelled.

If your DM allows Golarion Cleric, and you want a good fighter type cleric, take it.

[Saintheart]

So following old links and guides and such and came across 'golarion cleric' from pathfinder campaign setting. A Paizo book from 3.0/3.5 days. One thing I wondered.
How good or bad the tradeoff would be if a Cleric gave up both domains (including spells and domain power) and got proficiency with diety weapon, D10 hit dice, and full BAB. I know the usual thing is to prestige class out asap on a normal cleric.

Depends on the levels you're playing at, whether DMM is available, and the domains you've got access to. Up until character level 9 or 10 it's probably in favour of trading off the domains because Divine Power hasn't come online. And then the whole "be a fighter all day long" does depend on bookkeeping and lots of turn undead attempts to fuel Persistent Spell (Divine Metamagic).

However, it's two domain slots that can't then be exchanged for Knowledge Devotion and/or Travel Devotion, although you could still use up your precious feat slots for them. And certain domain spells are pretty nice. Anyspell or Greater Anyspell can't be accessed except via the Spell domain, which admittedly all but requires that you're playing in the Forgotten Realms

[holbita]

So divine power is a 4th level spell, so level 7 you can start to use it, until that level you will have medium BAB... but good BAB is only relevant from level 6 onwards, as until then it just means a bit higher to hit.

The hit dice is even less relevant as CON is going to give you more important things than a d8 to d10 could ever give you.

I wouldn't take the substitution unless it's a game that's not going to go past level 6, and even then... I would consider it for a while before doing so.

[Anthrowhale]

At low levels full BAB + no domains seems like a lose since Knowledge Devotion (+1 to +5 to attack and damage) + War Domain (weapon focus + martial weapon prof) is better.

[ViperMagnum357]

I would be almost as concerned about losing spells per day as access to domain powers/devotions. Losing 20% of your spell slots per day, even if they can only be filled from limited lists, is a lot to give up. Honestly, an extra proficiency is almost entirely irrelevant unless it is an exotic, and an average of 1 more Hit Point per level only slightly more important. Even if Divine Power is off the table entirely, I don't think I would make that trade for BAB in most campaigns.

[Telonius]

It would mean you really don't have to persist Divine Power (since the only thing you'd be getting over baseline is the +6 Str), which frees up your Turn Undead attempts to use on another spell to Persist. That's a big consideration. On the other hand, domain powers and casting can be a lot to give up, especially if you're allowed to cherry-pick which domains you want. Not all tables are cool with that, and for them it really depends on your deity. If you're giving up, like, Plant and Healing? Go for it. If your deity has Knowledge and Travel? I wouldn't.

So I guess the trade-off comes down to, "Which domains are you giving up?"

(Campaign idea: Nature deities facing crisis-level Cleric shortage, as all the cool clerics have started serving Fharlanghn for the Travel Devotion)

[Batcathat]

(Campaign idea: Nature deities facing crisis-level Cleric shortage, as all the cool clerics have started serving Fharlanghn for the Travel Devotion)

Now I imagine gods standing around at like a job fair, telling prospective clerics about the amazing opportunities they can get. "Sure, my domains aren't the greatest but I offer excellent dental!"

[Elves]

It’s bad. Granted, divine power as a spell shouldn’t exist (or at very least should prohibit casting like Tensers transformation). But even if DP is banned or houseruled, this ACF is worse than fist of Raziel.

[Gnaeus]

It seems like a strict downgrade for most adventuring environments. I can think of exceptions (like, you are in an arena or megadungeon where you are relying on wands rather than spells for most casting and/or you are encountering regular dispels, and even then, you have to at least consider knowledge devotion instead. Or if you are aiming for a PRC and have to meet a BAB requirement with as few levels as possible). But you are reducing your top level spell slots by between 1/3 and 1/4. You are giving up on the option of picking up a bunch of off list spells. And 2 domain powers, many of which are worth a feat or more. Of course, a worse cleric is still better than most classes. But even from a party balance perspective with low tiers it's bad, because you are moving away from the caster role and into a role a muggle could fill.

[Jervis]

So following old links and guides and such and came across 'golarion cleric' from pathfinder campaign setting. A Paizo book from 3.0/3.5 days. One thing I wondered.
How good or bad the tradeoff would be if a Cleric gave up both domains (including spells and domain power) and got proficiency with diety weapon, D10 hit dice, and full BAB. I know the usual thing is to prestige class out asap on a normal cleric.

It’s a lot like battle sorcerer in practice, though obviously better because it’s full BAB instead of 3/4. It’s good if you don’t intend to use DMM persist or PrC out. If you plan on going full cleric from 1-20 then it’s actually pretty good though it’s not a instant get. You have 1 less spell per day of each level and don’t get domain granted powers or domain spells. Over all it’s a downgrade in power ceiling but decent if you just want a melee cleric.

[Zarvistic]

I think it's good in e6 to get a feat you otherwise couldn't like shock trooper. Barbarian 1/cleric 5 for example and still have level 3 spells.

[Jervis]

I think it's good in e6 to get a feat you otherwise couldn't like shock trooper. Barbarian 1/cleric 5 for example and still have level 3 spells.

It’s also good in that because it lets you just have that max BAB on a spellcaster in a rules format where PrCs effectively don’t exist. Well they do but, uh, good luck making use of them

[Rleonardh]

Divine favor, first level spell, makes you equal to a fighter up till level 6 when they get 2nd attack but if you look only at bab to hit equal to a fighter till level 13.

Even only phb domains are to good to pass up.
If other books allowed look into envy, ceriety, and spell, also there ones that give feats.

If you do decide to go with original idea try to get prc church Inquisitor and divine defiance feat, also contemplative and pick up a domain there also.

G.cleric 3/church Inquisitor 1/g.cleric 6/contemplative 1/g.cleric 9

18bab, 20 levels of full casting plus +4 to will saves (-1 fort), 2 domains and with the ability to use turn attempts to counter spells.

[Biggus]

Sounds like a bad deal in most cases, might be good for a specific build but not otherwise. As well as the Divine Power thing, Clerics can take the Improved Toughness feat at first level if they want an extra HP per level.

Also depends to some extent on the deity you worship, some have domains which are pretty useless, others are amazing. In most cases I'd rather have the domains, most deities have at least one decent one.

[AsuraKyoko]

Yeah, generally speaking, I think it's not a good trade. Hell, my favored version of Cleric is the Cloistered Cleric, which goes the other direction: it has bad BAB and a lower HD (and gives up armor proficiencies) in exchange for Knowledge Domain and more skill points.

[Akal Saris]

It could also be good to qualify for some high-BAB prestige classes that normally take a long time for a 3/4 BAB class to enter. Anything typically designed for paladins is a possibility.

For example, Justiciar of Tyr needs BAB +5, so you could enter at level 6 instead of level 8. Fist of Raziel is another interesting case.