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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Aug 2013

    Default 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)


    TARRESQUE

    Size/Type: Medium Magical Beast (Planetouched, Human)
    Hit Dice: 6d10+36 (76 hp)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 60' (12 squares), Climb 30'
    Armor Class: 18 (+2 Armor, +1 Dex, +4 Natural, +1 Untyped), touch 12, flat-footed 17
    Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
    Attack: Gore +13 melee (3d6+10/20×2)
    Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (3d6+10/20×2) and Unarmed Strike +8 (2d6+10) and Bite +8 melee (2d6+7) and 4 Claws +8 melee (1d8+7) and Sting +8 melee (1d8+7 plus Poison)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison (1d3 Con, DC 20), Earthbind(Su)
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60', Scent, DR 5/Magic and Silver, Regeneration 1, AC Bonus, Paragon of Nature, Love of Nature, Powerful Build, Multiple Limbs, Unarmed Strike, Favored Enemy, Poison Use, Social Intuition, Speak with Beasts(Su), Immunity to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion, pushback, stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting, Resistance to Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5, Wild Empathy, Low Maintenance
    Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +4
    Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10
    Skills: Balance +9(5), Climb +15, Handle Animal -1, Hide +9, Intimidate +15, Jump +36(5), Knowledge(Arcana) +0, Knowledge(Nature) +6(5), Listen +1, Move Silently +1, Spot(2) +11, Survival(5) +8, Tumble +8(5)
    Feats: Track[B], Iron Will[B], Multigrab, Power Attack, Snap Kick
    Environment: Any
    Organization: Solitary, Pair
    Challenge Rating: 7
    Treasure: Standard
    Alignment: Mostly Neutral, sometimes Chaotic
    Advancement: 10-15 HD (Large) 16+ HD (Huge)
    Level Adjustment: +3
    (+2 by the Playground's LA-Reassignment balance)

    A Tarresque is an intelligent monster of pure physicality. A Tarresque resembles a horned humanoid with four arms, each with a hand ending in four clawed fingers and a thumb. Their humanoid size and shape belies a tremendous strength and durability.

    A Tarresque weighs about 200 pounds.

    Tarresques speak Common and Terran.

    COMBAT

    A Tarresque avoids combat outside of hunting prey, eating little and only as much as sustains itself, avoiding unnecessary harm or natural imbalance. When hunting, they use their barbed tail to latch onto and constrict prey, quickly poisoning and crushing them. Large targets may require pinning with their tail and all four arms, a deadly embrace which proves difficult for even the strongest creatures to escape.

    When defending territory, they may simply charge with their horns and slam opponents away until they are demoralized. When cornered, a Tarresque lashes out violently with Tooth, Claw, Tail and even Toes to kick away opponents in an oddly humanoid manner.

    Paragon of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque is a pure predator forced into a human form, with some drawbacks. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Initiative, a -2 penalty to attacks with manufactured weapons, and subtract 1 from their hit points gained at each level. A Tarresque may not have any other Flaws or Traits beyond these already incorporated. (DM Discretion: Two flaws, feats, and traits are included in this Race, which is the usual limit. Games may feel free to bypass this limit as desired.)

    Love of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque does not wish undue harm upon any natural creature, and must succeed at a DC 15 Will save before attacking any creature with the animal, plant, or vermin type, or lose their action. Note that animals, plants, and vermin may attack them without penalty.

    Low Maintenance (Ex) A Tarresque consumes food and water as if they were one size smaller.

    AC Bonus (Ex) As the Monk class ability; A Tarresque adds their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, as long as they wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.

    Regeneration (Ex) Fire and acid deal normal damage to a Tarresque. If a Tarresque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

    Powerful Build (Ex) The physical stature of a Tarresque lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. When subjected to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Tarresque is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to them. A Tarresque is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect them. A Tarresque can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, their space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

    Multiple Limbs (Ex) Tarresques have four arms, and thus can take the Multiweapon Fighting feat instead of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Tarresques can also take the Multiattack feat. These are not bonus feats.

    Spoiler: 3.5 Rules for using Weapons with Three or more Hands
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Three or More Hands, SSp42
    Provided that a weapon is designed for more than two
    hands, each additional hand used increases the damage
    dealt with that weapon. Each hand used beyond the
    first adds 1/2 the wielder’s Strength bonus to the
    damage. A creature wielding a Medium-size longsword
    with two hands adds 1 1/2 times its Strength bonus to
    the damage roll. A girallon wielding a Huge club with
    all four hands adds 2 1/2 times its Strength bonus to the
    damage roll.

    Any weapon in the Player’s Handbook can be lengthened,
    balanced, and otherwise designed and crafted for creatures
    with more than two hands. The determining factor is the
    relationship between the size of the weapon and the size of
    the user. Light weapons can never be designed for use with
    more than two hands. One-handed weapons can already be
    used with two hands, and can be designed for use with four
    hands. Two-handed weapons can be designed for use with
    up to eight hands. The cost is for a masterwork version of
    the weapon, and the wielder gains the benefits of using a
    masterwork weapon as well.

    Weapons may change size, as outlined above. Apply the
    cost change for size before applying the additional cost for
    the masterwork version when designing larger or smaller
    weapons for creatures with more than two hands.
    Thus,
    A Medium creature could wield any One-Handed Medium weapon with (at most) two hands for a 1.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any One-Handed Medium weapon (modified for) four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any Two-Handed Medium weapon with four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any Four-Handed Medium weapon with four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any Four-Handed Medium weapon with eight hands for a 4.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any One-Handed Large weapon with four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any Two-Handed Large weapon with four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, at no penalty.
    A Medium creature could wield any Four-Handed Large weapon with four hands for a 2.5x Str bonus, and a -2 Attack penalty.
    etc.

    Favored Enemy (Ex) A Tarresque has a unique enmity with those that oppose the natural order of things. As the Ranger class ability; A Tarresque gains a bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of these types. Likewise, they get a bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

    A Tarresque gains a +4 bonus against Arcanists (any target capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations, but not other spell-like abilities), and a +2 bonus against Constructs and the Undead. This stacks with other classes with this ability as if the Tarresque was a level 6 Ranger.

    Social Intuition (Ex) A Tarresque's animal senses pair with their human mannerisms to provide an uncanny awareness of social situations both familiar and unknown. This grants benefits to a number of their skill checks:
    • Making a Gather Information check to gain knowledge takes a Tarresque only 1d4+1 × 10 minutes, instead of the normal 1d4+1 hours.
    • A gut assessment of a social situation with a Sense Motive check can be made as a full-round action instead of taking a full minute.
    • A Tarresque can take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks, even if stress or distraction would normally prevent them from doing so.

    Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a Tarresque must hit with a Claw or Sting attack. A Tarresque can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better. When using Sting, it may initiate a grapple against an opponent of any size. A Tarresque deals automatic claw and/or sting damage on a successful grapple check, including Poison (if applicable).

    A successful hold immediately deals Constriction damage (see below) if desired, and each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold, including Poison (if applicable), and Constriction damage as well (if desired).

    Constrict (Ex) A Tarresque deals automatic Claw or Sting damage on a successful grapple check, depending on the attack that established the hold.

    Poison (Ex) A Tarresque has a poisonous sting. Injury, Fortitude DC 20, initial damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

    Poison Use (Ex) A Tarresque is trained in the use of poison, and are never at risk of accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a weapon.

    Immunities (Ex) A Tarresque is a near embodiment of physical perfection and brute force. Tarresque's have immunities to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion (see below), fatigue(see below), pushback(see below), stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting effects.

    A Tarresque reduces the effects of exhaustion and fatigue, by one step. They cannot become exhausted. If exposed to an effect or condition that would normally make them exhausted, they become fatigued instead. If an effect or condition (such as the end of barbarian rage) would normally make them fatigued, that effect is negated.

    Tarresques are immune to being pushed back as the result of a bull rush, including the effects of spells such as Bigby’s forceful hand and telekinesis (when used to perform a bull rush).

    Wild Empathy (Ex) As the Druid class ability; A Tarraeque gains a +4 bonus on wild empathy checks made to influence the reactions of magical beasts. This stacks with other classes with this ability as if the Tarresque was a level 6 Druid.

    Unarmed Strike (Ex) As the Monk class ability; A Tarresque gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and the unarmed damage increase is already reflected in the stat block above. This stacks with other classes with this ability as if the Tarresque was a level 1 Monk, with each increase in damage die increasing to the next step per Improving Monsters.

    Speak with Beasts (Su) A Tarresque can use Speak with Animals, as the spell. You can also use this ability to communicate with magical beasts that have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. You can use this ability at will.

    Earthbind (Su) A Tarresque has a pale form of the Tarrasque's gravity field, and can use Earthbind as the spell (Caster level equal to character's hit dice). You can use this ability at will. The save DC is Wisdom-based.

    Skills A Tarresque's racial skills are: Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble. A Tarresque has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Intimidate, Spot and Jump checks.

    As if Human, a Tarresque gains 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.



    TARRESQUES AS CHARACTERS

    Tarresque characters possess the following racial traits.
    • +12 Str, +14 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
    • Magical Beast (Human): Tarresques are not subject to spells or effects that would affect humanoids, unless such abilities target the Human subtype specifically. For example, Favored Enemy(Human) would apply, while Hold Person would have no effect.
    • Medium size
    • Base land speed is 60 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet, Tremorsense out to 60 feet.
    • Racial Hit Dice: A Tarresque begins with six levels of Magical Beast, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +2.
    • Racial Skills: A Tarresque’s Magical Beast levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. Tarresques have a +8 racial bonus on Jump, Hide, Intimidate, and Spot checks.
    • 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
    • Racial Feats: A Tarresque Magical Beast levels give it three feats, and gain Track and Iron Will as racial bonus feats.
    • Weapon Proficiency: A Tarresque is proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
    • +4 natural armor bonus.
    • Natural Weapons: Gore (3d6) and Unarmed Strike (2d6) and Bite (2d6) and 4 Claws (1d8) and Sting (1d8 plus Poison.
    • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison, Earthbind.
    • Special Qualities (see above): Scent, DR 5/Magic and Silver, Regeneration 1, AC Bonus, Paragon of Nature, Love of Nature, Powerful Build, Multiple Limbs, Unarmed Strike, Favored Enemy, Poison Use, Social Intuition, Speak with Beasts(Su), Immunity to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion, pushback, stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting, Resistance to Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5, Wild Empathy, Low Maintenance
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Terran. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan, Underdark.
    • Favored Class: Ranger
    • Level adjustment +3 (+2 by LA Reassignment balance)



    BALANCING ACT (AKA: WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?)

    This race is the condensation of a multiclass character build to "Fluff" as a Tarrasque Maid via a (Monk/Totemist2/Were-Scorpion/Warshaper2) as a Dungeonbred Half-Minotaur Lesser Tiefling, which does the same thing in 6 HD with 2 LA, but with the versatility to do many other things as well. This alternative Race option attempts to reduce mechanical complexity by exchanging multiple subsystems for their base components, streamlining by combination and reduction to their simplest parts, while making it flavor-forward Tarrasque-wise!

    The trade-offs are as follows:

    Class-Based Hombrew-Raced Balance?
    Outsider(Planetouched,Shapeshifter) Magical Beast(Planetouched, Human) Downgrade: From the best Type to mediocre, losing immunities
    +5 Natural Armor, -1 AC +4 Natural Armor Even-trade: Streamlining number complexity
    +2 Will, Weapon Finesse, Endurance Iron Will Downgrade: Streamlining feat list, Will save is equivalent
    +2 Claws +2 BAB, DR/Magic Even-trade: Less dmg, same attack, natural weapons still bypass DR/Magic
    6d8 HP 6d10, -1 HP/Level Even-trade: Same average HP
    Shapeshifting, Meldshaping Natural Weapons, Su Abilities Losing the versatility options, but extra limbs can no longer be dispelled. Most of the Streamlining/Reduction is here, by removing the Shifter+Meldshaping subsystems.
    Command Scorpions Speak w/ Animals + Beasts Losing combat power, gaining RP versatility. Ability previously available as a Supernatural at-will via Totemist shaping Beast Tamer Circlet
    Darkness, 1/day Earthbind, at-will Downgrade: Adds Tarrasque Gravity-Field flavor via a standard-action "Forced Feather Fall" spell. More interesting than the Outsider feat for at-will Ex Flight, but far more limited.
    +10 Climb Bonus 20' Climb Speed Upgrade: Streamlining by removing the Climb roll entirely.
    +6 Grapple Bonus, Jotunbrud Powerful Build Streamlining loses +6 grappling, while making the +Size modifier less conditional
    38 Skill Points, +4 vs. Maze,
    +2 Bluff, +2 Search, +2 Listen
    18 Skill Points, +1 per Level (As Human),
    +8 Jump, +8 Intimidate, +6 Hide
    Streamline all bonuses to +8, loses versatility by player choice.

    Spoiler: Monk/Totemist/Warshaper build, for Reference
    Show
    Dungeonbred Half-Minotaur Lesser Tiefling Monk/Totemist2/Were-Scorpion/Warshaper2

    ECL Class/Race HD BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Abilities Special
    0 Lesser Tiefling
    Dex +2
    Int +2
    Cha -2
    Med Humanoid (Planetouched) 30', Darkvision 60', +2 Bluff/Hide, Darkness 1/day, Resist 5 Cold/Fire/Elec, Aggressive, Quick, Bestial Instinct, Love of Nature, Regeneration, Immune to Exhaustion and Fatigue
    1 Wild Monk 1 1d8
    +0
    +2
    +2
    +2
    24
    Unarmed Strike(1d6), AC(Wis), Fast Move 10, Favored(+4 Arcanists, +2 Undead/Construct), Social Intuition, Poison Use
    2 Dungeonbred
    Half-Minotaur
    Str +8
    Con +6
    Int -2
    Move +10', Darkvision 60', Scent, NA +2, Gore(1d8), Low Maintenance, +4 vs Maze, +2 vs Poison/Disease, +2 Search/Spot/Listen, Natural Weapon Damage increase
    3 Totemist 1 2d8
    +1
    +3
    +3
    +2
    28
    Speak with Beasts(Su), Wild Empathy, Immunity to Disease, Poison, Sickened, Nauseated, and Pushback
    4 Totemist 2 3d8
    +2
    +3
    +3
    +3
    32
    Four +2 Claws, +6 Grapple, +6 Climb
    5,6 Werescorpion
    Int -2
    Wis +2
    Shapechanger, Tremorsense 60', NA +3, DR 5/Silver, +4 Climb/Hide/Spot, Immune to Mind-Effecting, Command Scorpions, Curse of Entomanothropy, Alternate Form
    7 Scorpion 1 4d8
    +3
    +4
    +3
    +3
    34
    Con +4 Hybrid Form, Constrict, Improved Grab, Sting, Poison(1d3 Con)
    8 Warshaper 1 5d8
    +3
    +4
    +4
    +3
    36
    Bite, Natural Weapon Damage increase, Immune to Stunning and Critical Hits
    9 Warshaper 2 6d8
    +4
    +5
    +4
    +4
    38
    Str +4
    Con +4

    OR, with Tome of Battle (See Initiator Variant below) you replace the Monk level with Unarmed Swordsage:

    ECL Class/Race HD BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Abilities Special
    1 Swordsage 1 1d8
    +0
    +0
    +2
    +2
    24
    Unarmed Strike(1d6), Quick to Act +1, Weapon Focus(Group), 6 Maneuvers Known, 4 Maneuvers Ready, Stance

    Suggested: Distracting Ember, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Charging Minotaur, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Child of Shadows

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ripptor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    ADAPTATIONS



    INITIATOR VARIANT

    For games using the Tome of Battle rules for Initiators, the Monk level can be replaced by an Unarmed Swordsage level as follows:

    Lose: Favored Enemy, AC Bonus, Social Intuition, Poison Use.

    Gain: Maneuvers, Stance, Discipline Focus, Quick to Act, Skills. (See Below)

    Maneuvers (Ex) As the Swordsage ability; A Tarresque begins with knowledge of six 1st-level martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to them are Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.

    A Tarresque's Initiator level for these abilities is 4, plus 1/2 for each additional Hit Die or Class Level. A Tarresque that gains Swordsage levels advances as if they already have one level in Swordsage. For example, a Tarresque Swordsage 1 would have a Racial Initiator Level of 5, gain the AC Bonus ability, a maneuver known and a stance known. Their racial Initiator Level is replaced by their Swordsage Initiator level.

    Maneuvers Readied (Ex) As the Swordsage ability; A Tarresque can ready four of their six maneuvers known. They ready your maneuvers by meditating and exercising for 5 minutes.

    Stances Known (Ex) As the Swordsage ability; A Tarresque begins play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to them.

    Discipline Focus (Ex) As the Swordsage ability; You gain the benefit of the Weapon Focus feat for weapons associated with the chosen discipline. See the discipline descriptions in Chapter 4.

    Quick to Act (Ex) You gain a +1 bonus on initiative checks.

    Skills As Tarresque, plus an additional 8 Skill Points at first level.




    RACIAL CLASS OPTION

    The abilities of a PC race with level adjustments can be divided into base racial abilities (equivalent to a human, elf, or other standard PC race) and racial levels to fill out the remainder of the race's level adjustment. Racial classes allow a player to create a 1st-level character of a level-adjusted race at the same power level as a 1st-level character of a standard race. Thereafter, the character can take levels in her racial class in order to gain her full complement of racial abilities. These racial class levels follow the normal rules for gaining levels in a template class.

    For flexibility, we'll create an LA 0 Base Race and Racial Class levels for lower-level Tarrasque PC play. This will loosely follow how the race was originally built (from classes and templates)


    TARRESQUE RACIAL TRAITS
    • +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
    • Magical Beast (Human): Tarresques are not subject to spells or effects that would affect humanoids, unless such abilities target the Human subtype specifically. For example, Favored Enemy(Human) would apply, while Hold Person would have no effect.
    • Medium size
    • Base land speed is 40 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    • Racial Skills: 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
    • Special Qualities: Paragon of Nature, Love of Nature, Regeneration, Multiple Limbs, Low Maintenance.
    • Natural Attacks: A Tarresque can attack with an Unarmed Strike dealing 1d4 damage. A Tarresque can attack with a weapon (or multiple weapons) at its normal attack bonus and make an Unarmed Strike as a secondary attack as long as at least one hand is free. For example, a Tarresque ranger with the Multiweapon Fighting feat who is armed with three short swords could attack with all three swords at a -2 penalty (the normal penalty for fighting with multiple weapons while using light weapons in off hands) and also make an Unarmed Strike at a -2 penalty, if it's fourth hand is free.
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Terran
    • Favored Class: Ranger
    • Level adjustment +0


    Paragon of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque is a pure predator forced into a human form, with some drawbacks. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Initiative, a -2 penalty to attacks with manufactured weapons, and subtract 1 from their hit points gained at each level. A Tarresque may not have any other Flaws or Traits beyond these already incorporated. (DM Discretion: Two flaws, feats, and traits are included in this Race, which is the usual limit. Games may feel free to bypass this limit as desired.)

    Love of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque does not wish undue harm upon any natural creature, and must succeed at a DC 15 Will save before attacking any creature with the animal, plant, or vermin type, or lose their action. Note that animals, plants, and vermin may attack them without penalty.

    Regeneration (Ex) Fire and acid deal normal damage to a Tarresque. If a Tarresque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

    Multiple Limbs (Ex) Tarresques have four arms, and thus can take the Multiweapon Fighting feat instead of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Tarresques can also take the Multiattack feat. These are not bonus feats.

    Low Maintenance (Ex) A Tarresque consumes food and water as if they were one size smaller.


    TARRESQUE RACIAL CLASS

    Alignment: True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral
    Skill Points: 2 + Int (x4 at 1st level)

    Level HD BAB Fort Reflex Wil Special
    1st 1d10
    +1
    +2
    +2
    +0
    Str +2, Con +2, Sting(Lesser), Immunity(Least), AC Bonus, Resistances(Lesser), Unarmed Strike(Lesser), Favored Enemy(Arcanists +2)
    2nd 2d10
    +2
    +3
    +3
    +0
    Dex +2, Natural Armor +1, Scent, Track, Gore(Lesser), Resistances(Greater), Social Intuition, Racial Skills +2
    3rd
    Str +2, Con +2, Powerful Build, Tremorsense(Lesser), Claws(lesser), Speak with Beasts, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy(Undead +2)
    4th 3d10
    +3
    +3
    +3
    +1
    Wis +2, Natural Armor +1, Iron Will, Fast Movement(Lesser), Immunity(Lesser), Poison(Lesser), Poison Use, Racial Skills +4
    5th 4d10
    +4
    +4
    +4
    +1
    Str +2, Con +2, Damage Reduction 5/Silver and Magic, Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison(Greater), Favored Enemy(Constructs +2)
    6th
    Natural Armor +1, Climb Speed, Tremorsense(Greater), Fast Movement(Greater), Immunity(Moderate), Earthbind, Racial Skills +6
    7th 5d10
    +5
    +4
    +4
    +1
    Bite, Claws(Greater), Gore(Greater), Sting(Greater), Unarmed Strike(Greater), Favored Enemy(Arcanists +4)
    8th 6d10
    +6/+1
    +5
    +5
    +2
    Str +4, Con +4, Natural Armor +1, Immunity(Greater), Racial Skills +8


    Ability Score Changes (Ex) The ability score in question increases or decreases by the indicated amount. Ability score increases are unnamed bonuses that stack with all other bonuses.

    Bonus Feats (Ex) At 2nd and 4th level, a Tarresque gains the feats indicated, assuming that they don't already have them. Bonus feats ignore prerequisites (if any).

    Favored Enemy (Ex) As the Ranger class ability; A Tarresque gains a bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of these types. Likewise, they get a bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures. This stacks with other classes with this ability as if the Tarresque was a Ranger level equal to their Hit Die.

    A Tarresque gains a +2 bonus against Arcanists (any target capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations, but not other spell-like abilities).

    At 3rd level, they gain a +2 bonus against Undead. At 5th level they gain a +2 bonus against Constructs. At 7th level, the bonus against Arcanists increases to +4.

    AC Bonus (Ex) As the Monk class ability; A Tarresque adds their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, as long as they wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.

    Unarmed Strike (Ex) As the Monk Ability; A Tarresque deals 1d8 damage with with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. A Tarresque may even make unarmed strikes with their hands full. A Tarresque may always apply their full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all unarmed strikes.

    At 7th level this damage increases to 2d6, and stacks with other Unarmed Strike abilities as if the Tarresque was a Large 4th Level Monk.

    Sting (Ex) A Tarresque has a Sting attack that deals 1d6 damage. At 4th level, this becomes a poisonous Sting (see below), and at 7th level it increases to 1d8 damage.

    Gore (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a Tarresque has a Gore attack that deals 2d6 damage. At 7th level, this increases to 3d6 damage.

    Claws (Ex) Starting at 3rd level, a Tarresque has four Claw attacks that deal 1d6 damage. At 7th level, this increases to 2d6 damage.

    Bite (Ex) At 7th level, a Tarresque gains a Bite attack that deals 2d6 damage.

    Immunities (Ex) A Tarresque reduces the effects of exhaustion and fatigue, by one step. They cannot become exhausted. If exposed to an effect or condition that would normally make them exhausted, they become fatigued instead. If an effect or condition (such as the end of barbarian rage) would normally make them fatigued, that effect is negated.

    At 4th level, Tarresques gain immunities to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, and mind-affecting effects.

    6th level Tarresques are immune to being pushed back as the result of a bull rush, including the effects of spells such as Bigby’s forceful hand and telekinesis (when used to perform a bull rush).

    At 8th level, Tarresques are also immune to stunning and critical hits.

    Resistances (Ex) At 1st level, a Tarresque gains cold resistance 2, fire resistance 2, and electricity resistance 2. When they reach 2nd level, each of these resistances increases to 5.

    Tremorsense (Ex) At 3rd level, a Tarresque gains Tremorsense 30'. When reaching 6th level, this sense increases to 60'.

    Social Intuition (Ex) At second level, a Tarresque's animal senses pair with their human mannerisms to provide an uncanny awareness of social situations both familiar and unknown. This grants benefits to a number of their skill checks:
    • Making a Gather Information check to gain knowledge takes a Tarresque only 1d4+1 × 10 minutes, instead of the normal 1d4+1 hours.
    • A gut assessment of a social situation with a Sense Motive check can be made as a full-round action instead of taking a full minute.
    • A Tarresque can take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks, even if stress or distraction would normally prevent them from doing so.


    Wild Empathy (Ex) As the Druid class ability; A 3rd level Tarresque gains a +4 bonus on wild empathy checks made to influence the reactions of magical beasts. This stacks with other classes with this ability as if the Tarresque was a Druid level equal to their Hit Die.

    Speak with Beasts (Su) A 3rd level Tarresque can use Speak with Animals, as the spell. You can also use this ability to communicate with magical beasts that have an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. You can use this ability at will.

    Powerful Build (Ex) The physical stature of a 3rd level Tarresque lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. When subjected to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Tarresque is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to them. A Tarresque is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect them. A Tarresque can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, their space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

    Fast Movement (Ex) At 4th level, a Tarresque's movement speed increases by 10 feet (to 50' land speed), and at 6th level increases by another 10 feet (to 60' land speed).

    Poison (Ex) A Tarresque gains a poisonous sting at 4th level (Injury, Fortitude DC 20, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Con) The save DC is Constitution-based. At 5th level, both initial and secondary damage increases to 1d3 Con.

    Poison Use (Ex) A 4th level Tarresque is trained in the use of poison, and are never at risk of accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a weapon.

    Damage Reduction (Su) At 5th level, a Tarresque gains damage reduction 5/Silver and Magic. A Tarresque's natural weapons are treated as magic silver weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

    Improved Grab (Ex) At 5th level, a Tarresque begins to grapple with Claw and Tail. To use this ability, a Tarresque must hit with a Claw or Sting attack. A Tarresque can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better. When using Sting, it may initiate a grapple against an opponent of any size. A Tarresque deals automatic claw and/or sting damage on a successful grapple check, including Poison (if applicable).

    A successful hold immediately deals Constriction damage (see below) if desired, and each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold, including Poison (if applicable), and Constriction damage as well (if desired).

    Constrict (Ex) At 5th level, a Tarresque deals automatic Claw or Sting damage on a successful grapple check, depending on the attack that established the hold.

    Climb (Ex) At 6th level, a Tarresque gains a natural Climb speed of 20 feet. Creatures with a climb speed have a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks, must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but can always choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. Such creatures retain any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

    Earthbind (Su) A 6th level Tarresque has a pale form of the Tarrasque's gravity field, and can use Earthbind as the spell (Caster level equal to hit dice). You can use this ability at will. The save DC is Wisdom-based.

    Racial Skills A Tarresque's racial skills for their Magical Beast Hit Dice are: Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble.

    At second level, a Tarresque gains a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Intimidate, Jump and Spot checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level, +6 at sixth level, and +8 at eight level.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Changelog

    Date Version Changes
    Aug 1st, 2022 1.0 Initial Post, Formatting decisions.
    Variants TBD (Racial Class, Tome of Battle, etc)
    Aug 5th, 2022 1.1 Initial Update, minor typos and Reductions:
    • Removing Weapon Finesse and Endurance
    • Unarmed Strike as Monk (Implies IUS bonus feat)
    • Skill Bonuses aligned to +8/+4, added +Skill per level
    • LA as +3 (RLA as +2)
    Aug 8th, 2022 1.1 Variants Added (Racial Class, Tome of Battle)
    Aug 9th, 2022 1.1 Original PC Baseline table added (Balancing Act)

    Frequently Asked Questions

    Magical Beast isn't a valid PC race, is it?
    While rare, indeed it is! The Aranea in the SRD (and Monster Manual) is a playable Magical Beast Race, and an excellent comparison point as a Spider/Humanoid Shapchanger, especially in the Hybrid form where this Tarresque's Werescorpion base originates.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    As a quick warning the TARRESQUES AS CHARACTERS section giving rules for a PC doesn’t include the racial hit die as a racial feature, meaning a strict RAW reading makes this a 0 RHD +2 LA race; this can best be described as the Feral + Mineral Warrior templates on crack. With RHD it’s a good race that I would call amazing as a fighter/Barbarian/initiator.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    TARRESQUES AS CHARACTERS

    Tarresque characters possess the following racial traits.
    • +12 Str, +14 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
    • Medium size
    • Base land speed is 60 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet, Tremorsense out to 60 feet, and Scent.
    • Racial Skills: Tarresques have a +8 racial bonus on Jump, Hide, Intimidate, and Spot checks, ans a +2 racial bonus on Search and Listen checks.
    • Racial Feats: A Tarresque gains feats according to its class levels.
    • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison, Earthbind.
    • Special Qualities (see above): Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60', Scent, DR 5/Magic and Silver, Regeneration 1, AC Bonus, Powerful Build, Multiple Limbs, Favored Enemy, Poison Use, Social Intuition, Speak with Beasts(Su), Immunity to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion, pushback, stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting, Resistance to Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5, Wild Empathy, Low Maintenance.
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Terran
    • Favored Class: Ranger
    • Level adjustment +2
    This level adjustment seems low. These guys are much better than minotaurs -- significantly higher stats, faster, better senses, resist 5 most things, and regenerate. And minotaurs have a +2. And I don't see "Love of Nature" in there to calm them down. I mean, they even engage in combat as if they're Large, use armor/weapons as if they're medium, and eat/drink as if they're small. That's kind of a lot for +2. And am I misreading it, or do they have racial Con poison?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    As a quick warning the TARRESQUES AS CHARACTERS section giving rules for a PC doesn’t include the racial hit die as a racial feature, meaning a strict RAW reading makes this a 0 RHD +2 LA race; this can best be described as the Feral + Mineral Warrior templates on crack. With RHD it’s a good race that I would call amazing as a fighter/Barbarian/initiator.
    Thank you!! I was so focused on formatting sections 1 and 3 that I completely forgot to finish section 2... That should have everything in there now!

    Going to add the Tome of Battle variant in Section 4 (Post 2), with the Monk level replaced by an Unarmed Swordsage for those that play with ToB. I love it, but I've found a surprising amount of people swear it off!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This level adjustment seems low. These guys are much better than minotaurs -- significantly higher stats, faster, better senses, resist 5 most things, and regenerate. And minotaurs have a +2. And I don't see "Love of Nature" in there to calm them down. I mean, they even engage in combat as if they're Large, use armor/weapons as if they're medium, and eat/drink as if they're small. That's kind of a lot for +2. And am I misreading it, or do they have racial Con poison?
    Love of Nature is in there now, the "As Characters" section was missing a few things!

    The Minotaur is probably a poor comparison, as even the designers knew he was under-powered as an ECL 8 at only CR 4. Unfortunately, there's a lot of imbalance in the original RHD/LA settings, which is why there's been a long, ongoing LA Re-assignment project here on the Playground!

    Looking up Minotaur, the Playground considers that race to be a Tier 4 LA 0 Race for ECL6 that really only shines in an Ubercharger build (Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.)

    The Tarresque above is made up of a Monk (T5) Totemist (T3) Lycanthrope (T3, LA1 by Playground) Warshaper (PrC) on an LA 0 Race with an LA1 (Half-Minotaur Template), which is why it has 6 RHD and 2 LA. It entirely possible to build a comparable PC out of Tier 3 parts with WotC material, hence the "signpost" at the current level. It's just not fun fluff-wise to have to shapeshift every day to "say" you are a Tarrasque-ling when you could just "be" one instead.

    As for Poison, the default rules for Poison is Con-based. She gains that from the Were-Scorpion, as follows:

    Poison (Ex) A monstrous scorpion has a poisonous sting. The details vary by the scorpion’s size, as follows. The save DCs are Constitution-based. The indicated damage is initial and secondary damage.
    As a PC Race, the player would get to gain their first class level at ECL 9, when Tier 1-2 classes are gaining 5th level spells (Baleful Polymorph, Cloudkill, Slay Living), and Tier 3 classes gain 5th level Maneuvers (+6d6 Dmg and riders, Two extra attacks, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    The Minotaur is probably a poor comparison
    I respectfully disagree. Almost everything a minotaur has, tarresques have but better.

    Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.
    • +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
    • Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
    • Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
    • A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    • Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
    • Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
    • Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
    • Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
    • +5 natural armor bonus.
    • Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
    • Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
    • Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
    • Favored Class: Barbarian.
    Tarresque characters possess the following racial traits.
    • +12 Str, +14 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
    • Medium size and Powerful Build
    • Base land speed is 60 feet.
    • Darkvision out to 60 feet, Tremorsense out to 60 feet.
    • Racial Hit Dice: A Tarresque begins with six levels of Magical Beast, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +2.
    • Racial Skills: A Tarresque’s Magical Beast levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Tumble. Tarresques have a +8 racial bonus on Jump, Hide, Intimidate, and Spot checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Search and Listen checks.
    • Racial Feats: A Tarresque Magical Beast levels give it three feats.
    • Weapon Proficiency: A Tarresque is proficient with all simple weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
    • +4 natural armor bonus.
    • Natural Weapons: Gore (3d6) and Unarmed Strike (2d6) and Bite (2d6) and 4 Claws (1d8) and Sting (1d8 plus Poison.
    • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Constrict, Poison, Earthbind.
    • Special Qualities (see above): Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60', Scent, DR 5/Magic and Silver, Regeneration 1, AC Bonus, Paragon of Nature, Love of Nature, Powerful Build, Multiple Limbs, Favored Enemy, Poison Use, Social Intuition, Speak with Beasts(Su), Immunity to poison, disease, sickness, nausea, exhaustion, pushback, stunning, critical hits, and mind-affecting, Resistance to Cold 5, Electricity 5, and Fire 5, Wild Empathy, Low Maintenance
    • Automatic Languages: Common, Terran. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan, Underdark.
    • Favored Class: Ranger
    • Level adjustment +2
    Everything bolded is significantly better, everything bolded and green is worse, sometimes only slightly worse.

    But, "Paragon of Nature" is compensated for. -2 to manufactured weapons is a penalty, yes, but they also have +4 more Strength which cancels out the hit penalty entirely. Or +2 Dex which halves the issue with ranged weapons. -1 hp/die would be a problem if they didn't have a whopping +10 more Con. It doesn't have Powerful Charge, but considering its Gore is already 3d6+its higher Str, that's not much of a downside after the first round of combat. And I was wrong before, it can use Large weapons, or just Multiattack seven times per round, including five free Grapple checks and Con poison.

    And then, of course, there's a laundry list of resistances and immunities. Cold, fire, and lightning covers a fair amount of incoming magic damage. DR 5/magic AND silver is even stronger. Then it's immune to critical hits, diseases, stuns, and mind-affecting (which covers a lot). And poison is one of the most common sources of nonphysical damage type in the Monster Manual, against which these guys are immune. By contrast, the minotaur is immune to flat-footed...and that's it.

    The tarresque is actually pretty similar to Troll, LA plus five, if you look at their stats and abilities. Troll has +12 Str +12 Con +4 Dex -4 Int -2 Wis -4 Cha, so while they have +2 Dex over yours, yours have +2 Con, and Int, and Cha, and +4 Wis over them. The "six levels of giant" are about the same as magical beast, and yes a troll regenerates faster than the terresque, its natural weapons are worse, its AC is worse in light/no armor, and trolls can be mind-affected, poisoned, and don't have any resistances. They do get martial weapons, I guess.

    Also, tarresques can outrun horses.

    While I didn't know about that Playground LA discussion thread before, it's still worth noting that, even following what it said about minotaurs, LA +2 still seems low here. Their stats, offense, and defense are just that solid. LA should be balanced around the creature's strong points, not its weak points. Minotaurs might make lousy wizards and clerics, but that's not a reason to lower their LA when almost nobody's going to do that. LA should be based on where a race is strongest -- such as a minotaur barbarian, whose +8 Str is effectively a permanent Rage -- to keep minmaxers from becoming overpowered.

    For what it's worth, the race itself seems like a lot of fun (well, Social Intuition seems a touch out of place for a -Int -Cha Paragon of Nature) and the Racial Traits at +0 don't seem like a real problem (well, maybe four arms). I just don't think the LA +2 is sufficient for the significant offense, defense, senses and stats they get. Sorry.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Hey, Ripptor! Long time, no see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    Armor Class:20 (+2 Armor, +3 Dex, +4 Natural, +1 Dodge), touch 14, flat-footed 17
    This doesn't look right. DEX should be +1 and the Monk-style WIS to AC is untyped, rather than dodge (not to mention that dodge bonuses to AC are lost when a creature is flat-footed). Am I missing something here?

    Weapon Finesse[B], Iron Will[B], Endurance[B], Track[B], Imp. Natural Attack(All)[B], Imp. Unarmed Strike[B], Barbed Stinger, Snap Kick
    10 bonus feats is a lot. It's clunky, even by 3.5 standards. I'd recommend ditching the five INAtts (there's no fast rule for how much damage a natural attack can deal, after all) and IUS, giving the thing, say, a slam attack instead of the unarmed strike.

    It's also missing a regular feat.

    Challenge Rating: 6
    Yeah, no. Even if we use the build it's meant to replicate as a benchmark, we are looking at a CR of 8 (5 from classes plus 3 from templates (entomanthrope and half-minotaur; the latter being notoriously under-CRed)) or so and I could argue for a value higher yet.

    Level Adjustment: +2
    Again, I don't think so, no. With werescorpion and half-minotaur alone, we'd have a +3, and that's before stuff like regeneration and the nine immunities (including a few that, NB, the actual tarrasque doesn't even have) some of which are very strong. You see, this is ultimately an issue of methodology.

    Let's take a look at trolls, a CR 5, 6 HD Large monster with regeneration and natural attacks. It only has a standard issue 30' land speed (which is low for its size, in fact), a claw-claw bite routine for no more than 3d8+2.5×STR if it spends all its feats on INAtt (no bonus feats), size penalties, no SA other than a boring rend, mostly mediocre SQs and an awful creature Type. Its NA is one higher than the little tarrasque's and its regeneration is slightly better, but it's otherwise inferior in every possible respect.

    Despite that, its official LA is a +5. Now,
    1. WotC LAs are stupid for sure, we are in agreement there, but RLA is essentially a homebrewn alternative system. Most homebrewers who assign RLA to their monsters list it separately from the WotC-style one;
    2. trolls have an RLA of +0. A creature with 6 RHD and an RLA of +2 would be the cloaker. Is the cloaker on par with this? I'm not sure. Is there a class that could turn the troll into something as strong at this in a mere two levels? I highly doubt it.

    Dungeonbred Half-Minotaur Lesser Tiefling
    Quick question: how does that even work? A Half-Minotaur Lesser tiefling is a humanoid and not even entomanthrope actually changes that; as such it cannot have the dungeonbred template by RAW.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2022-08-04 at 02:58 AM. Reason: ×.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I respectfully disagree. Almost everything a minotaur has, tarresques have but better.
    Yes, but again a Minotaur is a Tier 4 race at LA 0, and at best a low Tier 4 with LA+2. This complaint is akin to sating that Warblade is better than Fighter.

    True? Yes. But that's a problem with the Minotuar (and Fighter) being weak, not the Tier 3 Warblade being 'unbalanced'. Again, a Minotaur is a CR4 Encounter while the Tarresque is CR6, meaning that one Tarresque should be equivalent to two Minotaurs, including the doubled action economy. By the numbers, it's just not a good comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Also, tarresques can outrun horses.
    While this is funny, most Level 6 Monks can an outrun a Horse, and can easily pace the Terrasque above. I wouldn't worry about Monk breaking anything anytime soon, though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    While I didn't know about that Playground LA discussion thread before, it's still worth noting that, even following what it said about minotaurs, LA +2 still seems low here. Their stats, offense, and defense are just that solid. LA should be balanced around the creature's strong points, not its weak points. Minotaurs might make lousy wizards and clerics, but that's not a reason to lower their LA when almost nobody's going to do that. LA should be based on where a race is strongest -- such as a minotaur barbarian, whose +8 Str is effectively a permanent Rage -- to keep minmaxers from becoming overpowered.
    If you read the conversation I linked above, they do balance it around what the Race would be good at, so I wouldn't be looking down on that group too much. A Minotuar at 6HD, LA2 is weaker than Dungeoncrasher Fighter 8 at Charging, which IS the one thing it is supposed to do well. When a Race is being outshined by a Tier 5 class, maybe it's not balanced correctly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    For what it's worth, the race itself seems like a lot of fun (well, Social Intuition seems a touch out of place for a -Int -Cha Paragon of Nature) and the Racial Traits at +0 don't seem like a real problem (well, maybe four arms). I just don't think the LA +2 is sufficient for the significant offense, defense, senses and stats they get. Sorry.
    No offense taken, I'm happy for the review! I think we just play at different levels if a Minotaur, Fighter, and Barbarian are what you are balancing against. These are all Tier 4-5 (good at one thing, and generally outshined at even that) and I am aiming for Tier 3, building from a Monk(5)/Totemist(3) with some Templates attached.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Hey, Ripptor! Long time, no see.
    Hey Friend!! May we walk the path of many dead games together, in the hopes of finding some that live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    This doesn't look right. DEX should be +1 and the Monk-style WIS to AC is untyped, rather than dodge (not to mention that dodge bonuses to AC are lost when a creature is flat-footed). Am I missing something here?
    Fixed! Still had the DEX of the PC she was downgraded from in there, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    10 bonus feats is a lot. It's clunky, even by 3.5 standards. I'd recommend ditching the five INAtts (there's no fast rule for how much damage a natural attack can deal, after all) and IUS, giving the thing, say, a slam attack instead of the unarmed strike.

    It's also missing a regular feat.
    You're right, we can just drop the INAtts to streamline as-is. IUS is from the Monk level, and makes her more "human", so I like having that in there as a flavorful oddity. I could just take the "Unarmed Strike" block from Monk instead?

    Added Diehard as the missing level feat, since that's always fun with Regeneration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Quick question: how does that even work? A Half-Minotaur Lesser tiefling is a humanoid and not even entomanthrope actually changes that; as such it cannot have the dungeonbred template by RAW.
    We did ignore the type requirement on Dungeonbred in order to "nerf" her down to Medium size, to make her more Human-like. Adding that template moves her from Large to Medium, losing 4 Strength, 2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach, and the Size bonus on her grapples/trips/etc. She gains +2 Dex, Endurance, and +2 vs Poison/Disease (overwritten by Immunity) and Low Maintenance for half food/water. All-in-all an LA0 downgrade that fits with the flavor of a mage-grown controllable Tarresque race.

    It's easy to take off, but it would make her stronger: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +0 Con, +2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach and +4 Size bonuses to Grapple/Trip/Intimidate/etc. Remove Low Maintenance and Endurance[B].


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Let's take a look at trolls, a CR 5, 6 HD Large monster with regeneration and natural attacks.
    As we've all brought up Trolls as a benchmark, lets do look at it then! There's a multi-page discussion on the Playground about the balance of Trolls here, discussing them being a Tier 4 melee bruiser belonging at LA +0.

    CR5 means a Tarresque is worth about 1.5 Trolls vs a PCs, which seems accurate enough to me. CR6 Means a "Very Difficult" challenge for four Level 6 PCs, which seems appropriate here. Take a party that can kill a Troll, then give them each 1 level and 16,000 gold and have them kill a Terrasque.

    CR Calculation #
    NPC with 5 Class Levels 5
    NPC without WBL -1 or -2
    WereScorpion +2 (+1 by RLA)
    Half-Minotaur +1
    Total 5, 6, or 7

    CR 5 == 1 Troll, which is too low.
    CR 6 == 1.5 Trolls, which feels right to me. Average value of the above calculation.
    CR 7 == 2 Trolls, which is probably overboard with the Action economy difference. But Maybe?
    CR 8 == 3 Trolls, with triple the action economy and 15x the Regeneration.
    CR 9 == 4 Trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Is there a class that could turn the troll into something as strong at this in a mere two levels? I highly doubt it.
    Now, on ECL this sounds like a build challenge!

    Lets go for a ... Troll Totemist 2. As a PC you can pick your own Feats, Flaws and Traits, so we'll pick the same Flaws and Traits as Above (Quick, Aggressive)

    Level 1: Tireless, Fearless, Martial Study(Wolf Fang)
    Level 3: Power Attack
    Level 6: Leap Attack

    Shape Pauldrons of Health and Shedu Crown, Totem Bind the Landshark Boots with 2 Essentia.

    40' Speed, Immune to Disease, Sickening, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Fear, Pushback.

    Move + Attack: Four +2 Claws (1d6+9), and Two Rends(2d6+12) for a total of 8d6+60 Dmg.
    Wolf Fang Strike: Two +2 Claws (1d6+9) and Rend(2d6+12) for a total of 4d6+30 Dmg.

    And that's before any Pounce + Leap Attack bonuses for going Pogo-Troll with a +19 Jump (plus any Jump ranks). If that's off the table, then spend the two feats doing any of a number of other things. Gain Fire Resistance, or DR, swift action movement, or faster movement.

    So, an ECL8 Troll Totemist would outdamage the Tarresque and outheal the Tarresque, while maneuvering around the battlefield and "pouncing" with a 10' reach, with 7/9 Immunities. It does end up just being a beatstick + tank, but that's Tier 4 for you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    WotC LAs are stupid for sure, we are in agreement there, but RLA is essentially a homebrewn alternative system. Most homebrewers who assign RLA to their monsters list it separately from the WotC-style one
    That's an interesting thought, but it's a lot easier to balance these for actual use rather than try to find ways that WotC would muck it up make it unusable. I'd assume the idea would be to print these as balanced options, not intentionally unbalanced in the hopes that everyone Homebrews your Homebrew into balance on their own?

    Otherwise we could slap an LA +5 on here to make this race a terrible ECL 11 option, with a disclaimer that it's idiotic and should *actually* be RLA +2 ?

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    A Minotuar at 6HD, LA2 is weaker than Dungeoncrasher Fighter 8 at Charging, which IS the one thing it is supposed to do well.
    I think this is where this thread and I part ways, because I see a rabbit hole forming, and I don't want to fall down it. I've said my piece and I'll let others chime in.

    Regardless, it seems like a fun bordering on hilarious race and I hope it ends up in some campaign where someone walking down the street with 3 extra limbs won't immediately cause a panic.
    Last edited by Breccia; 2022-08-04 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    Hey Friend!! May we walk the path of many dead games together, in the hopes of finding some that live.
    So be it! So be it!

    You're right, we can just drop the INAtts to streamline as-is. IUS is from the Monk level, and makes her more "human", so I like having that in there as a flavorful oddity. I could just take the "Unarmed Strike" block from Monk instead?

    Added Diehard as the missing level feat, since that's always fun with Regeneration.
    Alright. I went over the feat list again. First of all, yes, this has a lot of SQs already, but I'd find Unarmed Strike more elegant than IUSB. But I can see grounds for further pruning as well: Weapon FinesseB on a creature with STR 24 and DEX 13 doesn't make much sense and does less. I'd say drop it, alongside EnduranceB which your tarrasque absolutely doesn't need with that CON score. Plug in Diehard as a bonus feat in its place (because it fits quite well), keep TrackB (because Scent) and (if you want bonus points for elegance), maybe make Iron Will a regular feat.
    At that point, it'd have two racial bonus feats (which is fairly normal) that synergize well with its abilities.

    We did ignore the type requirement on Dungeonbred in order to "nerf" her down to Medium size, to make her more Human-like. Adding that template moves her from Large to Medium, losing 4 Strength, 2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach, and the Size bonus on her grapples/trips/etc. She gains +2 Dex, Endurance, and +2 vs Poison/Disease (overwritten by Immunity) and Low Maintenance for half food/water. All-in-all an LA0 downgrade that fits with the flavor of a mage-grown controllable Tarresque race.

    It's easy to take off, but it would make her stronger: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +0 Con, +2 Natural Armor, 10' Reach and +4 Size bonuses to Grapple/Trip/Intimidate/etc. Remove Low Maintenance and Endurance[B].
    Ah, I see. Poweful Build offsets the loss of size bonuses and (given that the size penalties are gone), it basically negates the loss of NA and mitigates the -2 to hit and to damage due to strenth loss, though.


    As we've all brought up Trolls as a benchmark, lets do look at it then! There's a multi-page discussion on the Playground about the balance of Trolls here, discussing them being a Tier 4 melee bruiser belonging at LA +0.

    CR5 means a Tarresque is worth about 1.5 Trolls vs a PCs, which seems accurate enough to me. CR6 Means a "Very Difficult" challenge for four Level 6 PCs, which seems appropriate here. Take a party that can kill a Troll, then give them each 1 level and 16,000 gold and have them kill a Terrasque.

    CR Calculation #
    NPC with 5 Class Levels 5
    NPC without WBL -1 or -2
    WereScorpion +2 (+1 by RLA)
    Half-Minotaur +1
    Total 5, 6, or 7

    CR 5 == 1 Troll, which is too low.
    CR 6 == 1.5 Trolls, which feels right to me. Average value of the above calculation.
    CR 7 == 2 Trolls, which is probably overboard with the Action economy difference. But Maybe?
    CR 8 == 3 Trolls, with triple the action economy and 15x the Regeneration.
    CR 9 == 4 Trolls.
    CR 6 is way too low. The 1.5 troll comparison merely underscores that for me. I'll continue to hold that 8 would be more realistic, but I could settle for 7, I suppose.

    Now, on ECL this sounds like a build challenge!

    Lets go for a ... Troll Totemist 2. As a PC you can pick your own Feats, Flaws and Traits, so we'll pick the same Flaws and Traits as Above (Quick, Aggressive)
    I like flaws (and traits can be fun), but that's an optional rule and as such, it shouldn't figure into starting ECL. Or, if it does, we'll have to make the same assumption for the tarrasque as well.

    Level 1: Tireless, Fearless, Martial Study(Wolf Fang)
    Level 3: Power Attack
    Level 6: Leap Attack

    Shape Pauldrons of Health and Shedu Crown, Totem Bind the Landshark Boots with 2 Essentia.

    40' Speed, Immune to Disease, Sickening, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Fear, Pushback.

    Move + Attack: Four +2 Claws (1d6+9), and Two Rends(2d6+12) for a total of 8d6+60 Dmg.
    Wolf Fang Strike: Two +2 Claws (1d6+9) and Rend(2d6+12) for a total of 4d6+30 Dmg.

    And that's before any Pounce + Leap Attack bonuses for going Pogo-Troll with a +19 Jump (plus any Jump ranks). If that's off the table, then spend the two feats doing any of a number of other things. Gain Fire Resistance, or DR, swift action movement, or faster movement.

    So, an ECL8 Troll Totemist would outdamage the Tarresque and outheal the Tarresque, while maneuvering around the battlefield and "pouncing" with a 10' reach, with 7/9 Immunities. It does end up just being a beatstick + tank, but that's Tier 4 for you!

    Sometimes I need reminders that we're talking about the game where the fastest way to get Improved Evasion and DR/– is taking a dip in Commoner (sometimes I also need reminders that meldshaping exists, but I digress). 3.5 being 3.5 cuts both ways, though. If you can optimise the one-trick troll into relevance with such ease, it means that the better baked-in capabilities of a stronger race make a basis that much better for optimising the stronger race.


    That's an interesting thought, but it's a lot easier to balance these for actual use rather than try to find ways that WotC would muck it up make it unusable. I'd assume the idea would be to print these as balanced options, not intentionally unbalanced in the hopes that everyone Homebrews your Homebrew into balance on their own?

    Otherwise we could slap an LA +5 on here to make this race a terrible ECL 11 option, with a disclaimer that it's idiotic and should *actually* be RLA +2 ?
    Well, yes, but I'm yet to see a game anywhere that uses RLA. Gestalt happens a lot in these parts and I've seen free LA reduction for lower tier builds a couple of times, but RLA… Is yet to catch on. This, in turn, means that you set realistic numbers against a system made of, to put it bluntly, poorly conceived numbers, and thus, official (or official-style) material ends up having a huge disadvantage.

    All I'm saying is that it's good form to cater for all the folks who use the actual rules. An unfairly applied fix only makes the balance issues worse.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2022-08-05 at 06:31 AM.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Alright, updated to Version 1.1 as follows:

    • Removing Weapon Finesse and Endurance
    • Unarmed Strike as Monk (Implies IUS bonus feat)
    • Skill Bonuses aligned to +8, added +Skill per level
    • LA as +3 (RLA as +2)


    Also added in the Tome of Battle variant, and the Racial Class variant for those that want to play with those options, and the original PC build this was based off of in the Balancing Act section for reference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Alright. I went over the feat list again. First of all, yes, this has a lot of SQs already, but I'd find Unarmed Strike more elegant than IUSB. But I can see grounds for further pruning as well: Weapon FinesseB on a creature with STR 24 and DEX 13 doesn't make much sense and does less. I'd say drop it, alongside EnduranceB which your tarrasque absolutely doesn't need with that CON score. Plug in Diehard as a bonus feat in its place (because it fits quite well), keep TrackB (because Scent) and (if you want bonus points for elegance), maybe make Iron Will a regular feat.
    At that point, it'd have two racial bonus feats (which is fairly normal) that synergize well with its abilities.
    Agreed, she can drop Weapon Finesse and Endurance to think things up a bit. Decided to keep Iron Will though, to maintain the number balance and keep one of the two "filler" feats for Prerequisites. Downgrade.

    Also removed the explicit calling out of IUS as a bonus feat to rely on the Unarmed Strike block to state it (as Monk).

    That leaves us with two of the most common racial feats: Track and Iron Will, which is nice and neat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Ah, I see. Poweful Build offsets the loss of size bonuses and (given that the size penalties are gone), it basically negates the loss of NA and mitigates the -2 to hit and to damage due to strenth loss, though.
    There's a built more of a net-negative numerical ripple effect going on than it may at first seem

    A Dungeonbred monster loses 4 Strength (Str -8 from Large to Medium, Str +4 to compensate), and loses the -1 size penalty to hit, so they net -1 Attack and -2 Damage per attack. That applies to all 7 Natural attacks, which Powerful Build has no effect on.

    Powerful Build could allow a character to use a larger manufactured weapon at -1 Attack and a higher damage dice. Most weapons average a +2 damage increase by size, so the net effect is identical damage, at -1 Attack (and -2 for being a Manufactured Weapon).

    Of course, all Natural and Manufactured weapons still go from 10' Reach (Large) to 5' Reach (Medium), losing 60% or their threatened area.

    Where it hurts her the most is in Grappling. A Large creature with a +6 Grapple Bonus and +8 Strength has a +14 modifier from these. Losing +6 Grapple and +4 Strength drops that down to a mere +6 bonus, dropping her success rate by 40%.

    So the total net effect:
    • Losing 60% of Reach
    • -7 Attack and -14 Damage across Natural Weapons
    • -1 Attack for all Large weapons with the same damage
    • -1 Attack and -2 Damage for all Medium weapons
    • -8 to Grapple checks, as a Grappler type (Imp. Grab, Constrict)

    In return, Dungeonbred provides:

    • Endurance as a bonus feat (Now Removed)
    • +2 vs Disease/Poison (Already Immune)
    • +1 Dex AC (and -1 Natural Armor AC)
    • +1 to Dex checks and skills (and -2 to all Strength checks and skills)
    • Low Maintenance (Half food/water)

    As a Strength-based Grappler, Dungeonbred is quite nearly a strict downgrade for this race across the board. I'm hard-pressed to think of any optimiser would trade Reach, +4 Strength, and +8 Grapple for +2 Dex and half-food consumption.

    But this isn't an optimization challenge, Dungeonbread just fit the whole "Breed them but smaller" flavor of a human-sized Tarrasque that doesn't consume everything in it's wake

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I like flaws (and traits can be fun), but that's an optional rule and as such, it shouldn't figure into starting ECL. Or, if it does, we'll have to make the same assumption for the tarrasque as well.
    I knew this would be easy to miss, so I put it at the top of all the lists, but the first ability a Tarresque has is Paragon of Nature,

    Paragon of Nature (Ex) A Tarresque is a pure predator forced into a human form, with some drawbacks. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Initiative, a -2 penalty to attacks with manufactured weapons, and subtract 1 from their hit points gained at each level. A Tarresque may not have any other Flaws or Traits beyond these already incorporated. (DM Discretion: Two flaws, feats, and traits are included in this Race, which is the usual limit. Games may feel free to bypass this limit as desired.)
    So the Flaws and Traits actually ARE assumed for the Tarresque, and are forced as Aggressive, Quick, Bestial Instinct, and Love of Nature. I just gave the Troll Totemist the exact same ones as the Tarresque already had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Sometimes I need reminders that we're talking about the game where the fastest way to get Improved Evasion and DR/– is taking a dip in Commoner (sometimes I also need reminders that meldshaping exists, but I digress). 3.5 being 3.5 cuts both ways, though. If you can optimise the one-trick troll into relevance with such ease, it means that the better baked-in capabilities of a stronger race make a basis that much better for optimising the stronger race.
    Well, I just used half of what's already in the Tarresque above! I added in a table with the how-to-build of the base Monk/Totemist/Warshaper for an easier comparison.

    As for the Troll Totemist, it has two more levels to play with, so you actually can't add the same amount on top of one as the other. The "Stronger Race" here just has those two levels of Totemist baked in (Four +2 Claws, +6 Grapple, +6 Climb, Immune to Disease, Poisoning, Sickening, Nausea, Pushback, Wild Empathy). You can;t really "optimise" the Tarresque the same way, since adding Immunities again, or gaining a Bite when you already have one, doesn't actually do anything (And it already uses up those two HD levels).

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    CR 6 is way too low. The 1.5 troll comparison merely underscores that for me. I'll continue to hold that 8 would be more realistic, but I could settle for 7, I suppose.
    This I'm gonna hold out on for now... CR 6 is two Bugbear Vampires (Drakthar's Way), or just looking at the top of the alphabet: Assassin Jelly, Black Recluse, Blood Elemental. All 3 have multiple immunities (poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorphing, sonic, mind-affecting, critical hits, illusions, stunning, flanking, all verbal spells...), their poisons cause paralysis or drowning/nausea to lock down PCs, with powerful spell-like abilities (Invisibility, Cause Insanity) and comparable DCs at 17-18.

    At CR 7 we have the Argent Spider (Huge): Immune to Mind-Affecting, 1d8 Con Poison DC 20, with at-will free action teleportation and a +27 Grapple check. One of these could teleport in, Bite grapple a PC for 20 damage and 1d8 Con and drag them away 40' in a single round, before run/teleporting around with their hapless prey. An Argent Spider would solo or escape the Tarresque here:

    Spoiler: Just like the Simulations!
    Show
    The Spider is faster than the Tarresque (40' Move plus a free 30' Teleport per turn vs only 60') so it gets to decide whether to Chase or Escape, assuming it can't be grappled or incapacitated. The Spider outgrapples her (+27 vs +17) to slip grapples 80% of the time, and can teleport out when it fails as a free action.

    A Tarresque's attacks would miss 50% of the time due to Love of Nature (+4 vs DC 15), then miss another 55% of the time due to the spider's AC (+13 vs AC 25), averaging to-hit 25% of the time, or once every 4 rounds. The Spider can continuously kite her (Move/Attack/Teleport), avoiding Full Attacks while dealing damage 100% of the time (+17 vs AC 18) for an average of 12 damage after DR but ignoring Poison.

    This gives the Tarresque 5-6 rounds before it falls unconscious due to damage, at which point it will be eaten and die to the Acid in the monster's stomach. In this time the Tarresque will average 1.5 successful attacks (Move+Attack), assuming Gore (~20 dmg) for 20 or 40 dmg to the Spider's 104 HP. On average the Tarresque will die after hitting the spider once or twice.

    In order to "win", a Tarresque would have to either:
    (0.09% Chance) Land 4 attacks (0.30%) while rolling near-max (26+, 2.75%)
    (0.05% Chance) Land 5 attacks (0.09%) while rolling over-avg (21+, 50%)
    (0.02% Chance) Land 6 attacks (0.03%) while rolling okay-ish (18+, 75%)

    For a combined 00.16% Chance (a sixth of one percent), about 1/600 odds to kill the Spider.

    Survival odds are higher, if we assume the Spider is willing to escape if things get dicey, lets say four hits landing (0.30%), which give 1/300 odds that the Tarresque "scares" the Spider off without either of them dying. A more careful Spider might leave early, instead at 3 hits landing (1.55%), for an average of 0.9% of the time (Assuming half Careful, half Daring).

    Final Odds, then:
    99.0% - Spider Feasts
    00.9% - Spider leaves hungry
    00.1% - Tarresque wins

    This is despite the Tarresque having relevant DR (soaking up 30 Dmg) and being immune to it's 1d8 Con poison, which is the Spider's usual hunting advantage. Love of Nature is a disadvantage, but even taking that away only doubles the Tarrasque's Survival rate from 1% to 2%, still far from an even fight where only 0.33% is the Tarresque truly "winning" and killing the Spider.

    I may have to look further than the first CR 7 "A" encounter that isn't all about Spellcasting, but I'll keep her at CR 6 for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, yes, but I'm yet to see a game anywhere that uses RLA. Gestalt happens a lot in these parts and I've seen free LA reduction for lower tier builds a couple of times, but RLA… Is yet to catch on. This, in turn, means that you set realistic numbers against a system made of, to put it bluntly, poorly conceived numbers, and thus, official (or official-style) material ends up having a huge disadvantage.

    All I'm saying is that it's good form to cater for all the folks who use the actual rules. An unfairly applied fix only makes the balance issues worse.
    Thanks for walking me through that! I'll move her LA up to +3 per the original templates, and parentheses the more balanced RLA as +2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I think this is where this thread and I part ways, because I see a rabbit hole forming, and I don't want to fall down it. I've said my piece and I'll let others chime in.

    Regardless, it seems like a fun bordering on hilarious race and I hope it ends up in some campaign where someone walking down the street with 3 extra limbs won't immediately cause a panic.
    Thanks for your input! Let me know if you get to try her out and have some fun

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    Default Re: 3.5 Tarresque Race (Petite Paragon, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripptor View Post
    Alright, updated to Version 1.1 as follows:

    • Removing Weapon Finesse and Endurance
    • Unarmed Strike as Monk (Implies IUS bonus feat)
    • Skill Bonuses aligned to +8, added +Skill per level
    • LA as +3 (RLA as +2)


    Also added in the Tome of Battle variant, and the Racial Class variant for those that want to play with those options, and the original PC build this was based off of in the Balancing Act section for reference!

    Agreed, she can drop Weapon Finesse and Endurance to think things up a bit. Decided to keep Iron Will though, to maintain the number balance and keep one of the two "filler" feats for Prerequisites. Downgrade.

    Also removed the explicit calling out of IUS as a bonus feat to rely on the Unarmed Strike block to state it (as Monk).

    That leaves us with two of the most common racial feats: Track and Iron Will, which is nice and neat!
    Tidy! I like it.

    Where it hurts her the most is in Grappling. A Large creature with a +6 Grapple Bonus and +8 Strength has a +14 modifier from these. Losing +6 Grapple and +4 Strength drops that down to a mere +6 bonus, dropping her success rate by 40%.
    Well, yes, but grappling is a suboptimal and headache-inducing tactic, so any incentive to not do it is kind of a good thing. I'll readily concede reach is a bigger issue, but extending that is just two easy to take feats away, so I wouldn't worry all that much about it.

    But this isn't an optimization challenge, Dungeonbread just fit the whole "Breed them but smaller" flavor of a human-sized Tarrasque that doesn't consume everything in it's wake
    Heh, yes. Yes indeed.


    I knew this would be easy to miss, so I put it at the top of all the lists, but the first ability a Tarresque has is Paragon of Nature,


    So the Flaws and Traits actually ARE assumed for the Tarresque, and are forced as Aggressive, Quick, Bestial Instinct, and Love of Nature. I just gave the Troll Totemist the exact same ones as the Tarresque already had.
    Um, about that. I'm not sure I like it. Baking things based on optional rules (fun as those may be) into the very statblock of a critter is a bit of a clunky design that might end up causing all manners of compatibility issues. I'm not saying you should drop Paragon of Nature because it's cool as all hell, but divorcing it from the trait/flaw system, ven if at the cost of increasing CR, LA or both would strike me as a more fortunate creative decision.

    As for the Troll Totemist, it has two more levels to play with, so you actually can't add the same amount on top of one as the other. The "Stronger Race" here just has those two levels of Totemist baked in (Four +2 Claws, +6 Grapple, +6 Climb, Immune to Disease, Poisoning, Sickening, Nausea, Pushback, Wild Empathy). You can;t really "optimise" the Tarresque the same way, since adding Immunities again, or gaining a Bite when you already have one, doesn't actually do anything (And it already uses up those two HD levels).
    In the same way? No. In some other crazy way? I'm sure that one's possible. That's what 3.5 does.

    This I'm gonna hold out on for now... CR 6 is two Bugbear Vampires (Drakthar's Way), or just looking at the top of the alphabet: Assassin Jelly, Black Recluse, Blood Elemental. All 3 have multiple immunities (poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorphing, sonic, mind-affecting, critical hits, illusions, stunning, flanking, all verbal spells...), their poisons cause paralysis or drowning/nausea to lock down PCs, with powerful spell-like abilities (Invisibility, Cause Insanity) and comparable DCs at 17-18.

    At CR 7 we have the Argent Spider (Huge): Immune to Mind-Affecting, 1d8 Con Poison DC 20, with at-will free action teleportation and a +27 Grapple check. One of these could teleport in, Bite grapple a PC for 20 damage and 1d8 Con and drag them away 40' in a single round, before run/teleporting around with their hapless prey. An Argent Spider would solo or escape the Tarresque here:

    Spoiler: Just like the Simulations!
    Show
    The Spider is faster than the Tarresque (40' Move plus a free 30' Teleport per turn vs only 60') so it gets to decide whether to Chase or Escape, assuming it can't be grappled or incapacitated. The Spider outgrapples her (+27 vs +17) to slip grapples 80% of the time, and can teleport out when it fails as a free action.

    A Tarresque's attacks would miss 50% of the time due to Love of Nature (+4 vs DC 15), then miss another 55% of the time due to the spider's AC (+13 vs AC 25), averaging to-hit 25% of the time, or once every 4 rounds. The Spider can continuously kite her (Move/Attack/Teleport), avoiding Full Attacks while dealing damage 100% of the time (+17 vs AC 18) for an average of 12 damage after DR but ignoring Poison.

    This gives the Tarresque 5-6 rounds before it falls unconscious due to damage, at which point it will be eaten and die to the Acid in the monster's stomach. In this time the Tarresque will average 1.5 successful attacks (Move+Attack), assuming Gore (~20 dmg) for 20 or 40 dmg to the Spider's 104 HP. On average the Tarresque will die after hitting the spider once or twice.

    In order to "win", a Tarresque would have to either:
    (0.09% Chance) Land 4 attacks (0.30%) while rolling near-max (26+, 2.75%)
    (0.05% Chance) Land 5 attacks (0.09%) while rolling over-avg (21+, 50%)
    (0.02% Chance) Land 6 attacks (0.03%) while rolling okay-ish (18+, 75%)

    For a combined 00.16% Chance (a sixth of one percent), about 1/600 odds to kill the Spider.

    Survival odds are higher, if we assume the Spider is willing to escape if things get dicey, lets say four hits landing (0.30%), which give 1/300 odds that the Tarresque "scares" the Spider off without either of them dying. A more careful Spider might leave early, instead at 3 hits landing (1.55%), for an average of 0.9% of the time (Assuming half Careful, half Daring).

    Final Odds, then:
    99.0% - Spider Feasts
    00.9% - Spider leaves hungry
    00.1% - Tarresque wins

    This is despite the Tarresque having relevant DR (soaking up 30 Dmg) and being immune to it's 1d8 Con poison, which is the Spider's usual hunting advantage. Love of Nature is a disadvantage, but even taking that away only doubles the Tarrasque's Survival rate from 1% to 2%, still far from an even fight where only 0.33% is the Tarresque truly "winning" and killing the Spider.

    I may have to look further than the first CR 7 "A" encounter that isn't all about Spellcasting, but I'll keep her at CR 6 for now.
    Numbers! I like numbers! And you're sure making some convincing arguments there. Nevertheless, I'm not sure a web-only monster is the best point of comparison we can use here. The numbers on those are off as often as they aren't. Let us, perhaps, take a look at core and a couple of the better monster books out there (I have a certain fondness for FF and MM3)!

    At CR 7, we find sad, hopeless stuff like bulettes, huge elementals, hill giants, flesh golems, dire bears, red slaadi, lesser flame snakes (beatsticks with inferior offense, insufficient defenses and not much else), slasraths (its poison doesn't work, it's "I sunder your armour" trick ditto), hellcats (tremorsense IN YOUR FACE! (not that these things aren't kind of bad even before that)), dragonnes (immunity to exhaustion IN YOUR FACE!), chuuls (they can hope to get lucky with their paralysis thing, but if it fails, they are toast), arrow demons (it can use its SLA to stay away from melee range but that bites deep into its damage output and its defenses are on the weak side), naitioan rakshasasToB and eight-headed hydras (these can be sporting, but not invincible by any means). Nymphs and succubi are also CR 7, of course but they don't seem to set the norm.

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