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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Daemon

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    Default Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Note: specifically here I'm interested in the behavior when casting cantrips/using Extra Attack. Which shouldn't be all or even most of the time. But that's the segment I care about right now.

    A few interrelated questions:
    1) Assuming you started with the standard array and chose a suitable race (your choice for what is suitable, including the floating ASI model), but weren't playing with feats. As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX? Is saying "I start with 16 INT and 14 DEX and then bump INT to max, then DEX as much as possible" a sane priority for ASIs? Is there a better one (possibly flipping the order)?

    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?

    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2022-08-05 at 01:46 PM.
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Calculating it, it seems that going with BB all the time (plus a rapier attack after Extra Attack kicks in) is more damage. Same afterward, but better than an unbuffed firebolt, despite having lower modifiers (slightly). Is that true? Dunno.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    1) Personally I would prioritise Dex. This goes against the conventional forum Wisdom of 'you're a Wizard first that can do martial stuff' for my own personal play style and in my experience of players choosing martial subclasses, they choose them because they want that martial experience in a different way. So I, and they, prioritise physical first, Int second.

    2) I would personally use a whip and just make everything Booming Blade unless range is prohibitive.

    3) No idea!
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note: specifically here I'm interested in the behavior when casting cantrips/using Extra Attack. Which shouldn't be all or even most of the time. But that's the segment I care about right now.

    A few interrelated questions:
    1) Assuming you started with the standard array and chose a suitable race (your choice for what is suitable, including the floating ASI model), but weren't playing with feats. As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX? Is saying "I start with 16 INT and 14 DEX and then bump INT to max, then DEX as much as possible" a sane priority for ASIs? Is there a better one (possibly flipping the order)?

    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?

    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    1) I'd usually start with 16 dex and 16 int if using point buy or standard array. If using standard array then assign the 15 to int and 14 to dex then bump dex by 2 and int by 1 to have two 16s. 13 in con so you can bump it with resilient con down the road. 12, 10 and 8 assigned to the other stats as you like.

    If you are using Tasha's ... and take custom lineage you could start with 18 dex / 14 int or 18 int /14 dex with appropriate choice of starter 1/2 feat. In addition, variant human could start with 16/14 plus resilient con for example for a 14 in con.

    Resilient con is useful if you want to maintain concentration reliably in melee - the bladesinging feature helps make it more effective.

    2) Bladesinger is primarily a wizard. They have full wizard spellcasting with a bit of melee ability stuffed on top. As a result, I'd usually prioritize intelligence over dex though both are useful and important. I'd either boost int to 18 then dex to 18 or int to 20 first then follow up with dex. However, another feat to consider in there is Mobile since it lets you hit something and move away without op attacks - but the class is really starved for feats/ASIs since it is MAD if you want to emphasize the melee.

    3) Tier 1 attacks would likely be a long bow or rapier at d8+3 damage vs a firebolt at d10 - the weapons are more average damage. You could also use booming blade in case the creature decides to move since it would take an extra d8.

    4) In tier 2 you could combine either a long bow attack with firebolt or a melee attack with something like a rapier plus a second attack with booming blade. The melee option will have slightly more damage in tier 2.

    5) In terms of the movement rider of booming blade going off - this depends a lot on the DM but in my experience it is relatively infrequent unless your party has some way to encourage the creature to move. A creature knowing that it will take damage if it moves often stays in place if it has a target to attack. In this case, if the wizard hasn't moved away, then they make a really good target so most of the time, a creature affected by booming blade will just stay there and attack the wizard hoping to break their concentration. This is especially useful if the wizard is concentrating on a control spell or haste for example.

    As a result, bladesinger+booming blade is usually just setting up an ideal target for the opponents at melee range. The bladesinger has a good AC but hit points aren't that good and crits will happen.

    Good ways to force the booming blade target to move are:
    - Mobile feat - the bladesinger can attack and move away. If the enemy has no one they can attack they will often move and just take the damage.
    - Dissonant Whispers or Fear spell - this forces the target to flee using their own movement and it will trigger booming blade rider damage

    Anyway, in practice, I have found that booming blade can get the rider damage but it happens very rarely if the enemy doesn't have a good reason to move and trigger it. So, I'd say booming blade movement rider damage takes effect in about 5% of attacks in general use (a bit more if the party has some options forcing a creature to use their movement to move) and 50-75% if the enemy can be set up where they don't have an easy target and need to move to do something.

    P.S. Booming blade has a 5' range so even with a whip, it will only work within 5'. I'm not sure if spell sniper works with the current version of booming blade but that used to be a way to get it to work with reach weapons. (By the way, reach weapons+booming blade are another way to possibly get the movement rider to go off more often).
    Last edited by Keravath; 2022-08-05 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    The best ways to trigger BB have always been the "don't stand in the bad stuff" CoD can effectively trigger BB constantly and of you have some forced movement options you can still drag them back into it.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    3. 0% Booming Blade doesn't do damage with it's rider, it makes thing stand still.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    I have a human bladesinger in one of my groups. He is wizard first and melee second as he isn't always needed on the front with a Paladin, Moon Druid and a Hexblade warlock that are at the front line.

    To procc booming blade he took the telekinetic feat which works pretty well and the Polearm master Hexblade loves it as often enemies have to get back into melee and he often gets an opportunity attack.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    1) Personally I would prioritise Dex. This goes against the conventional forum Wisdom of 'you're a Wizard first that can do martial stuff' for my own personal play style and in my experience of players choosing martial subclasses, they choose them because they want that martial experience in a different way. So I, and they, prioritise physical first, Int second.
    This is what I did with my Bladesinger. Start 16 Dex, 16 Int. Raise Dex to 18 at 4th level. Int to 18 at 8th level.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorChain View Post
    I have a human bladesinger in one of my groups. He is wizard first and melee second as he isn't always needed on the front with a Paladin, Moon Druid and a Hexblade warlock that are at the front line.

    To procc booming blade he took the telekinetic feat which works pretty well and the Polearm master Hexblade loves it as often enemies have to get back into melee and he often gets an opportunity attack.
    How does he use telekinetic to trigger booming blade? Does he just push the opponent away forcing them to move to attack on their next turn?

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    If you don't have a good bonus action, it might be a better idea to go with short Swords. If your DM is a stickler about Booming Blade interactions with Shadowblade, going that route also allows you, once you reach level 6, to Booming Blade with Short Sword, attack with Shadow Blade, and Bonus Action attack with the Shadowblade (as both weapons are light, you have taken the Attack Action, and you have attacked with another weapon). An extra d6 as a bonus action is nothing to write home about; 3d8, on the other hand, is quite respectable.

    As to ASIs, I'd go with 17 Int and 16 dex, and raise Int with Fey-Touched first; if I really want to Gish, I'd raise Dex afterwards, but I'd say Warcaster would come before that.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    In Tier 1 and into Tier 2, in combats that you can activate Bladesong, you're more apt to be a melee fighter first, and caster second. Similar to something like an Arcane Trickster Rogue or a Hexblade Bladelock.

    But in later Tier 2 through 3 and 4, the Bladesinger morphs into basically being a standard Wizard with a higher AC, who can occasionally get into melee.

    Therefore, start with roughly equal DEX and INT, then I'd boost DEX at Wizard 4 and boost INT at 8 and 12. This lands you at roughly 18 DEX/20 INT at Wizard 12. Slightly higher DEX for the initial part of your career during which you're making more DEX-based attacks, but maxing out INT by the time you get into the portion of your career where you're primarily a caster.

    Something like this with a Half Elf:
    STR 8
    DEX 14+2
    CON 13+1
    INT 15+1
    WIS 12
    CHA 10
    18 DEX at 4, 18 INT at 8, 20 INT at 12
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2022-08-06 at 10:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    When I playtested before not allowing it, which was some time ago, I assumed enemies would instinctively know it's a dangerous effect that would harm them. Then I adjudicated it like an OA. Tough and unwounded enemies might well ignore it. Most would not. To get the extra damage, the best tactic was to use it then retreat, possibly eating an OA as a result. As a result, it was far better as a tanking cantrip, especially for EKs.

    Personally I think you should just run two use cases, 0% additional and 100% additional. And then give it as the min/max.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Given that Bladesong gives an Int benefit to AC, Bladesingers have a valid reason to prioritize Int over Dex more than other Wizards. And you probably can get advantage somewhat regularly with a spell to start combat, meaning you shouldn't miss too much. So if you can start with a 16 Dex, I can't see doing anything with it until you have a 20 Int and necessary Feats for whatever build you're attempting.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Given that Bladesong gives an Int benefit to AC, Bladesingers have a valid reason to prioritize Int over Dex more than other Wizards.
    Yes, but keep in mind that Bladesong is only usable Proficiency Bonus times per day. So a Bladesinger cannot rely on Bladesong in every combat.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Given that Bladesong gives an Int benefit to AC, Bladesingers have a valid reason to prioritize Int over Dex more than other Wizards.
    Most wizards want Int and Con then Dex.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    How does he use telekinetic to trigger booming blade? Does he just push the opponent away forcing them to move to attack on their next turn?
    Yes, pretty much. Either they stand there like idiots if they don't have anything else to do or they have to switch weapons for ranged or charge back into the fray.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Yes, but keep in mind that Bladesong is only usable Proficiency Bonus times per day. So a Bladesinger cannot rely on Bladesong in every combat.
    After level 3 this really isn't a problem as their spell slots increase.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Given that Bladesong gives an Int benefit to AC, Bladesingers have a valid reason to prioritize Int over Dex more than other Wizards. And you probably can get advantage somewhat regularly with a spell to start combat, meaning you shouldn't miss too much. So if you can start with a 16 Dex, I can't see doing anything with it until you have a 20 Int and necessary Feats for whatever build you're attempting.
    I think it really depends upon whether you want to lean into the role which the Bladesinger was designed to fulfill - being a viable gish. If you're looking to actually contend with the other weapon using combatants (at least until late tier 2), then having only a 16 Dex would feel bad...at least to me. If I'm looking to play a more spell-heavy, magic-focused wizard, then I'll do it with some other subclass. But if I'm bothering to play a Bladesinger, then I'm gonna use my blade a fair amount, directly after I cast my (hopefully only) big concentration spell for that combat.

    So, like RogueJK said, Dex to 18 at 4, Int at 8 & 12.


    EDIT: Also, I feel like Bladesinger works great as a faux-rogue. Taking Criminal background for Thieves' Tools and Stealth, combined with the Advantage to Acrobatics from blade singing, meshes together really well into a decently rakish, Dex-capable companion to your party's actual Rogue and/or Ranger.
    Last edited by Guy Lombard-O; 2022-08-06 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Lombard-O View Post
    EDIT: Also, I feel like Bladesinger works great as a faux-rogue. Taking Criminal background for Thieves' Tools and Stealth, combined with the Advantage to Acrobatics from blade singing, meshes together really well into a decently rakish, Dex-capable companion to your party's actual Rogue and/or Ranger.
    Yep. You can even multiclass into Rogue for 1/2/3 levels, if you want to lean even harder in that direction. I've played an Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger before.

    Rogue 1 gets you +1 skill, Expertise x2, 1d6 Sneak Attack, Thieves Tools, and Thieves Cant.
    Rogue 2 gets you Cunning Action, which can be handy since - other than Bladesong once per combat - you don't have a ton of BA options (and this opens up Booming Blade + Disengage shenanigans)
    Rogue 3 gets you 2d6 Sneak attack, plus either Arcane Trickster for +1 spell slot level, some additional spells known, and Mage Hand Legerdemain, or alternately Swashbuckler for +CHA to Initiative, free quasi-Disengage, and easier Sneak Attacks

    However, from a strictly optimization standpoint, a Bladesinger dipping Rogue will eventually feel the effects of being behind in spells as they morph into their later "tankier caster" form from their initial "gishy melee striker" form.

    A single-classed Goblin Bladesinger with the Criminal Background hits the sweet spot here, IMO.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2022-08-06 at 03:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Yes, but keep in mind that Bladesong is only usable Proficiency Bonus times per day. So a Bladesinger cannot rely on Bladesong in every combat.
    My point is that's Proficiency Bonus times per day more than any other wizard, which is an additional incentive to bump Int. Dex: yeah I get that you want your multi-attack to be hitting, but I don't think that compares to bumping the attacks and saves associated with your spells as well as AC during Bladesong. To Tanarii's point, I think it's more of a question of Dex v. Con; on that I'd lean Dex on a Bladesinger, though I'd still be putting one feat into either Warcaster or Res Con over Dex in a game that allowed feats.

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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre
    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    In the case of a smart foe:
    - If you create a situation where not moving is worse than the damage, they are likely to move. You then get the value of the BB damage.
    - If you create a situation where not moving is bad, but the damage is worse, they are likely to stay. You don't get any damage, but importantly BB's rider still got value (because it made them stay still when they didn't want to).
    - If you create a situation where not moving was already the best move, they are likely to stay, and BB's rider will have provided no benefit.

    Someone's waaay more likely to move if they're put in a hazard, or if they can't accomplish much from their current position, or the like.

    To estimate how much value you're going to get from BB's rider, the question to ask yourself is: What sort of situations are you putting the enemy in? Depending on your answer, the value of BB's rider can vary all over the place.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The best ways to trigger BB have always been the "don't stand in the bad stuff" CoD can effectively trigger BB constantly and of you have some forced movement options you can still drag them back into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    3. 0% Booming Blade doesn't do damage with it's rider, it makes thing stand still.
    Quote Originally Posted by RazorChain View Post
    Yes, pretty much. Either they stand there like idiots if they don't have anything else to do or they have to switch weapons for ranged or charge back into the fray.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2022-08-07 at 12:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Sooo...you got some tricky questions, cause all the answers are "It depends"


    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    1) Assuming you started with the standard array and chose a suitable race (your choice for what is suitable, including the floating ASI model), but weren't playing with feats. As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX? Is saying "I start with 16 INT and 14 DEX and then bump INT to max, then DEX as much as possible" a sane priority for ASIs? Is there a better one (possibly flipping the order)?
    It depends on if you want to be a fighting GISH or a casting GISH. That said, I highly recommend starting with 16 Int and 16 Dex no matter which way you plan to go. Thankfully that's pretty easy, even without Tasha's rules. You just need to be a High Elf, and have a 14 Con, 12, Wis, 8 Str, and 8 Cha. If you start with 16 in Dex and Int, you'll have a lower Wisdom, but you'll be able to max out Dex and Int while having room for a feat.


    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?
    Yeah, you pretty much have it down. Before you get Extra Attack, you should stick to your best Ranged cantrip. Then, ones you get Extra Attack, 1 Rapier attack + Booming Blade is going to be your go-to. That said, if you wanna mix it up a bit, a Hand Crossbow with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, along with Firebolt or Chill Touch can be pretty good. I'll be honest, I've played with the idea of a Hexblade/Blade Dancer that used Crossbow Expert paired with Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast, but the stat requirements are too high.


    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    Honestly, the extra damage doesn't trigger very often, because most enemies have no reason to move during combat. However, you might be able to change that as a Wizard. For example, Flaming Sphere is an Action to cast, but a Bonus Action to move. So if you toss down a Flaming Sphere, and on your next turn use a Bonus Action to slam it into a target and leave it next to them, then use your Action for your Attack and hit them with Booming Blade. If the target moves, they take the BB damage, if they stay put, they take the Flaming Sphere damage.

    Another option is the Fear spell, since it specifics that targets have to move. If you have a Bard as an ally, Dissonant Whispers works as well. Dissonant Whispers is particularly good if you have War Caster, and if you can position yourself in a way that the target has to move 5 feet before leaving your reach. You can effectively double tap the target.
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note: specifically here I'm interested in the behavior when casting cantrips/using Extra Attack. Which shouldn't be all or even most of the time. But that's the segment I care about right now.
    If I’m playing a BS, it’s to get into melee while still having magic abilities, so using EA with BB/GFB would be most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX?
    I’d go Dex>Int>Con

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?
    (Side note: We play with SB being compatible with BB/GFB.) I’m going BB/GFB, if relevant, before level 5. I’m only using Firebolt if I can’t get into melee. After EA, it’ll be weapon attack with BB/GFB, unless I need the extra defense of Blade Ward.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    I’ve seen it in play plenty, but the movement damage rarely occurs. If it matters, GFB’s secondary damage procs way, way more. Maybe BB’s secondary hits a few times a campaign. Usually with BB, you’re also getting the opportunity attack if the target moves, so it’s rare the DM chooses to have the enemy take both damage rolls. I haven’t seen BB in play with other party members involved to force movement. GFB about once a combat, I’d imagine.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    The Land of Cleves
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    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Others have already touched on this, but there are two different ways that Booming Blade's rider can have an effect: If the enemy moves, they take the damage. But also, if an enemy wanted to move, but doesn't because of the Booming Blade, then they take whatever the penalty is for not moving. Both are good for you (though it's suboptimal that it's the enemy that gets to choose which happens, not you).

    As for being a wizard first and a martial second, that doesn't necessarily mean prioritizing int over dex. There are plenty of good wizard spells for which casting stat has little or no relevance, and you can make a viable wizard using mostly or only those spells. Most of those unintelligent spells don't do damage, but hey, you have a sword for that.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    A single-classed Goblin Bladesinger with the Criminal Background hits the sweet spot here, IMO.
    Ohhhh. And that Bonus Action disengage makes the chances of BB's secondary damage happen too.

    Nice!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note: specifically here I'm interested in the behavior when casting cantrips/using Extra Attack. Which shouldn't be all or even most of the time. But that's the segment I care about right now.

    A few interrelated questions:
    1) Assuming you started with the standard array and chose a suitable race (your choice for what is suitable, including the floating ASI model), but weren't playing with feats. As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX? Is saying "I start with 16 INT and 14 DEX and then bump INT to max, then DEX as much as possible" a sane priority for ASIs? Is there a better one (possibly flipping the order)?

    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?

    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    Ideally you want some method of forcing the enemy to trigger the bb extra damage. Some good examples are flaming sphere forcing them to choose which source of damage they want to take or using telekinetic to shove them 5 feet away so they need to move to attack in melee. Without that I assume rider damage is 25%.
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  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note: specifically here I'm interested in the behavior when casting cantrips/using Extra Attack. Which shouldn't be all or even most of the time. But that's the segment I care about right now.

    A few interrelated questions:
    1) Assuming you started with the standard array and chose a suitable race (your choice for what is suitable, including the floating ASI model), but weren't playing with feats. As a pure bladesinger, would you tend to prioritize INT or DEX? Is saying "I start with 16 INT and 14 DEX and then bump INT to max, then DEX as much as possible" a sane priority for ASIs? Is there a better one (possibly flipping the order)?

    2) For cantrip selection, I'm assuming that
    2a) before Extra Attack, the default's going to be firebolt if casting a cantrip, weapon attack (rapier?) up close? Single Booming Blade attack all the time?
    2b) after Extra Attack, the default's going to be 1 rapier(?) attack and then Booming Blade? If not that, then what?

    3) What's a reasonable range of proc rates (based on experience) for BB's extra damage (ie the "if the target moves" rider)? As in, you'd expect it to trigger at least X but probably not more than Y% of the time? 0 - 100% 30-60%? I've not seen it in play enough to have a good intuition on this one.
    1) I think starting with 16 dex and int is the way to go. Level up ASIs should go towards int.

    2) I think levels 1- 4 before the level up in BB/GFB you should probably just use a crossbow or some other ranged weapon, ideally with a help action from familiar.

    2b) yes extra attack with BB is probably true got to default, although for particularly high AC targets it might be better to attack followed by Toll the Dead. If you want to tank it up you can also consider use blade ward plus attack.

    3) unless you have a way of moving away from the enemy or push it away it basically never procs. Maybe 1 in 10 tries.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    1) I think starting with 16 dex and int is the way to go. Level up ASIs should go towards int.

    2) I think levels 1- 4 before the level up in BB/GFB you should probably just use a crossbow or some other ranged weapon, ideally with a help action from familiar.

    2b) yes extra attack with BB is probably true got to default, although for particularly high AC targets it might be better to attack followed by Toll the Dead. If you want to tank it up you can also consider use blade ward plus attack.

    3) unless you have a way of moving away from the enemy or push it away it basically never procs. Maybe 1 in 10 tries.
    Careful about point 2; unless you have Hand Crossbow proficiency somehow, you lose your Bladesong if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. I learned that the hard way.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Careful about point 2; unless you have Hand Crossbow proficiency somehow, you lose your Bladesong if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. I learned that the hard way.
    You only have 2 x Bladesong from level 1 - 4, there are probably a few encounters that you wouldn’t have Bladesong.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: Bladesinger + Booming Blade

    Hey all,
    Just wanna hijack this post since i originally wanted to make a bladesinger thread myself for some bladesinger questions.

    Im starting at level 7 with my bladesinger and chose custom race for 18 DEX, 16 INT, 14 CON and Mobile Feat.

    1. Would it be reasonable to ask my DM for a bracers of defense as starting magic item? Cloak of protection would be my alternative if thats too expensive.

    2. Haste looks good as 3rd level spell as an improved blur with +2 AC and dodge plus one attack or does it perform worse than blur? Any alternatives? Greater invisibility maybe?

    3. While firebolt is already good should i pick toll the dead or poison spray too? They do higher damage but my chances that it will actualy 'hit' are pretty small with 16 INT right?

    4. and the biggest question: How would weapon switching and using cantrips work in specific cases?

    Case 1 for low difficulty fights without bladesong: Id go with a light crossbow and firebolt for 2d10 plus 1d8+3 crossbow damage. Can i cast firebolt while holding that crossbow or do i have to use a hand crossbow here? What would be a good strategy if an enemy gets in melee? Pull out my rapier with one free action and attack plus booming blade so he doesnt chase me (or either regrets it cause im 10 feet faster and he takes damage)? What about shield? Can i cast shield with rapier and crossbow in hand? Any other recommended tactics you guys could think of?

    Case 2 for harder fights with bladesong: With my improved movement i should go for rapier booming blade plus 1 attack or if the enemy doesnt want to move 1 firebolt plus 1 rapier attack and then move away since most enemies would need a dash action to catchup.
    How would that work out if an enemy already engages an ally of mine? Booming blade seems useless then so just get close -> attack -> get away as far as possible -> firebolt?

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