balancing an encounter (T3)

[da newt]

In an upcoming game I've got an encounter between Roc's and a party of 7 PCs average level 13 on a ship in the open ocean. What would make this a vanilla 'deadly' encounter - something that is challenging / interesting but not boss level, TPK is a very possible outcome, high stress nasty?

For narrative reasons this is just something that happens along the way, everyone will be at full resources to start and have plenty of time for a long rest afterwards. I'd love to grab a PC and make a run for it or destroy the ship, but that would throw off the plot (it's AL so I need to keep to the story beats).

How many Rocs? Should I add another maritime enemy (a few giant sharks to make being dropped in the water really bad, a band of Merrow or Chuul, a water elemental myrmidon, a couple kracken priests, ...)? My fear is Roc's are very simple creatures, a good control spell or two and this encounter lasts less that 6 seconds.

Thoughts / Suggestions?

[da newt]

Oh - the players / party range from very basic level tactics to pretty clever, but not high OP.

[Mastikator]

Rocs are solitary creatures so I'd probably wouldn't pair them with anything. But you could go for something like an ancient sea serpent (CR 14, FTD) + a young sea serpent (CR 8, FTD). They specifically target ships and this could be a parent-child learning moments about putting uppity mortals in their place.
The ancient sea serpent goes for the ship itself, and with siege damage it won't be many rounds until the ship sinks, while the young one targets individuals on deck. The ancient one has legendary resistance so it can't be easily CC'd, and since they're both water dwellers anything that causes them to sink is just a temporary setback

According to the calculator it's a medium difficulty encounter for 7 13th level PCs. Since they're not optimized "medium" may be good enough.

[da newt]

Thanks, but I can't take out the ship for plot reasons. The mod is written for a pair of courting Rocs ...

[Mastikator]

In that case 2 rocs is an easy encounter and 3 is a hard one. You could even have 4 if you delay one or two of the rocs by a round or so. Like 2 arrive then on round 2 another and on round 3 another one again. If it looks like 3 is overwhelming them then don't have the 4th show up, if they're crushing the rocs then a 5th could even show up on round 4.

[Zhorn]

I suppose the biggest thing to do first is to establish why the Rocs are there to begin with.
Any one single encounter is going to run into the dreaded "how do I balance this without resorting to boss tactics?", which generally you can't, especially not if you are working with a full tank of resources (plus that's a big party you have).
But that's assuming a fair fight, or white-room scenario. Encounters don't only need to be on the powerful side to be challenging. Making an enemy frustrating to deal with can elevate their effectiveness and help them hit above their weight. We'll return to that thought in a bit.

So we go back to why the Rocs are there.
Open ocean, so that rules out nests, unless you want to9 have a cloud giant castle floating by that they roost in.
My thought would be highly active fishing grounds and they've come ranging out this far for that. Large plumes of krill attracting whales and the rocs are after that, or huge schools of fish drawing in larger sea creatures, and those have drawn in giant sharks, going full food-chain cycles of life and all that.
Rocs are happily doing Roc things in these hunting grounds, then in comes this big slow moving ship; and oh joy of joys, that's the exact thing Rocs like to tear into for making nests.

Ok, so we have reason for the Rocs being there and motivation for the attack, now you want something that tips the balance.
A sea fog that limits long distance sight would do, and make a bit of sense. Sure it's more of a coastal effect, but we'll just go with its fantasy fog and move forwards. Using this fog we can say anything outside of 30 ft is lightly obscured, and beyond 60 ft range is heavily obscured, making the Rocs able to dive in and out of vision, making them a bit harder to deal with and help stretch their hp out another couple of rounds.

Rocs dive in to beak at the sales trying to detach some good quality nesting material. They want to take the sail, not shred it, so once the party either defeats the Rocs or drives them away, the repairs are simple enough as to not have a destroyed ship halting the plot.
If they are attacked, they fly out into the fog for cover to make another dive back in in a round or two.
If someone is in melee range on their dive in or flight out; talon grapple. The grappled person then has to worry about only breaking the grapple when close to the ship, as the waters are filled with sharks/whales, etc.
Likewise for any character that becomes too much of a nuisance. Rocs will try to pluck them off and carry them away from the ship so they (or their mate) can get at the sails easier.

Lean into that frustrating factor to tip the balance.
The ship could get past the feeding grounds in a few rounds, but if anyone is overboard they have to be slow enough for the swimmer to get back aboard, plus waiting for them to deal with any water bound threat that'll harass them till out of the water.
And in keeping the ship still, the rocs have an easier time knocking people off the boat and trying to peck the sail free.
Any single element the party will have no issues winning against, but the combination will make it a decent expenditure to do so.

Considering your party level and size, I'd say have 2x mated pairs of Rocs, for a total of 4, but not have this as a to-the-death. any Roc that drops below 100 hp wont approach the ship, but those that do don't both go in with their mate at the same time. Alternating dives in and out. If a mate is killed, then the other will attack directly with vicious intent, but while they are both alive they can be driven off, with most of their attention on just wanting to get at the sails (one pair on the main sail, the other pair on the fore sail).
Sharks/killer whales in the water are just opportunist hit'n'run threats. A good solid hit will drive any single one off for a bit. Just treat those as hazards, like each round someone is overboard they roll a d6, on a 6 they are attacked until it takes 20 points of damage to drive off.

The party should win this, but they'll have taken a few hits, spent s few spells, etc. From there you can look at a follow up encounter with whatever else fits your campaign. The elementals or kraken priests you mentioned getting a strike in before a rest point is reached. The party should be softened up enough that those too won't need to be overly deadly to give the players a sense of danger.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

In an upcoming game I've got an encounter between Roc's and a party of 7 PCs average level 13 on a ship in the open ocean. What would make this a vanilla 'deadly' encounter - something that is challenging / interesting but not boss level, TPK is a very possible outcome, high stress nasty?

For narrative reasons this is just something that happens along the way, everyone will be at full resources to start and have plenty of time for a long rest afterwards. I'd love to grab a PC and make a run for it or destroy the ship, but that would throw off the plot (it's AL so I need to keep to the story beats).

How many Rocs? Should I add another maritime enemy (a few giant sharks to make being dropped in the water really bad, a band of Merrow or Chuul, a water elemental myrmidon, a couple kracken priests, ...)? My fear is Roc's are very simple creatures, a good control spell or two and this encounter lasts less that 6 seconds.

Thoughts / Suggestions?

7 is a lot and generally I tend to think that the power goes up with bigger groups somewhat exponentially. Some of this is stacking of buffs and some is due to the fact that when something goes wrong for 1 character there is more chance of another having a solution.

In order to (somewhat) deal with the first issue consider how many rounds you want the group to have pre combat. Fog or low cloud would limit vision and prep time; at least buffs would have to be used during combat if you do this.

I like the idea of something in the water, and if you want to make it really scary, again limiting vision from the group of the boat to anyone who ends in the water will impact others' ability to help. Fog or high seas would do the trick; now that I think of it, high seas as an environmental factor could also add some difficulty for those on the boat (if your group is into that sort of thing).

I ran Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and added a lot of shipboard travel and combat. We had situations where characters had to get in the water to help others; based on your question I think you want this as it adds to the tension. Good luck.

Edit: now that I think of it GoS (if you have access to it) has some other environmental effects for sea battles which might be interesting.

[Unoriginal]

In an upcoming game I've got an encounter between Roc's and a party of 7 PCs average level 13 on a ship in the open ocean. What would make this a vanilla 'deadly' encounter - something that is challenging / interesting but not boss level, TPK is a very possible outcome, high stress nasty?

For narrative reasons this is just something that happens along the way, everyone will be at full resources to start and have plenty of time for a long rest afterwards. I'd love to grab a PC and make a run for it or destroy the ship, but that would throw off the plot (it's AL so I need to keep to the story beats).

How many Rocs? Should I add another maritime enemy (a few giant sharks to make being dropped in the water really bad, a band of Merrow or Chuul, a water elemental myrmidon, a couple kracken priests, ...)? My fear is Roc's are very simple creatures, a good control spell or two and this encounter lasts less that 6 seconds.

Thoughts / Suggestions?

Having the Roc hold things in its claws and dropping it on the ship could add some spice to the confrontation.

Could be anything from rocks to parts of another ship that are relevant to the plot to an handful of undead sailors.

[Trafalgar]

A few ideas:

1) People already talked about visibility. Say that the cloud ceiling is about 100'. The Roc can swoop in, attack and then swoop out and hide in the clouds again. And then attack from a different direction.

2) Rocs make grappling attacks with their talons. Have the Roc swoop in, attack, and carry a PC off and then drop them in the ocean. If the PC has lots of equipment or armor, have them make an Athletics check or start to sink. If they fail, the PC will have to choose between ditching their armor/items or drowning. The other PCs may need to launch a boat to rescue the ones in the water.

3) The Roc can tear out the rigging on the ship. This won't cause the ship to immediately sink but will cause it to no longer be under the control of the crew. This can be deadly if the ship is up against a lee shore.

4) Fire is extremely dangerous on wooden ships. This is doubly true if there is a lot of gunpowder on board for cannons. If the roc attack causes a lantern to be knocked over, some of the PCs will need to divert their attention to putting out the fire.

[MrStabby]

A few ideas:

1) People already talked about visibility. Say that the cloud ceiling is about 100'. The Roc can swoop in, attack and then swoop out and hide in the clouds again. And then attack from a different direction.

2) Rocs make grappling attacks with their talons. Have the Roc swoop in, attack, and carry a PC off and then drop them in the ocean. If the PC has lots of equipment or armor, have them make an Athletics check or start to sink. If they fail, the PC will have to choose between ditching their armor/items or drowning. The other PCs may need to launch a boat to rescue the ones in the water.

3) The Roc can tear out the rigging on the ship. This won't cause the ship to immediately sink but will cause it to no longer be under the control of the crew. This can be deadly if the ship is up against a lee shore.

4) Fire is extremely dangerous on wooden ships. This is doubly true if there is a lot of gunpowder on board for cannons. If the roc attack causes a lantern to be knocked over, some of the PCs will need to divert their attention to putting out the fire.

I would add a storm as an option as well. The PHB specifically calls out concentration saves for waves crashing over a PC, having such things as a kind of "lair acton" to occasionally break concentration might be good. Add in slippery sliding decks that can knock you prone or even overboard if you don't use a hand to hang on and you will be curtailing the use of some weapons and shields on deck.

[KorvinStarmast]

Having the Roc hold things in its claws and dropping it on the ship could add some spice to the confrontation.

Could be anything from rocks to parts of another ship that are relevant to the plot to an handful of undead sailors.

Falling rocks and not-falling Rocs. I like the "parts of another ship" as things to pick up and drop on the party.

@Zhorn, nice post in terms of 'why is the Roc there' as a thought pattern.

[J-H]

Yeah, vision and range is key. I have Rocs in my current campaign. I also have a Kensei monk with sharpshooter. He can run 110'/rd and shoot with no disadvantage out to 600'. If it's a clear day, dashing Rocs still take 2 rounds of fire before even getting into range. That's enough pain to convince most beasts to just go somewhere else. Expect a whole burst of readied actions when they hit the 120' mark as well (shorter ranged spells).

It's hard to make Rocs a threat by themselves. I would definitely add something else going on, like an attack by some beefy sahuagin or scrags (aquatic trolls). Also give the Rocs some cover when they are inbound.

At level 13, the party probably has at least two characters with teleportation and/or flight (DDoor, fly spell, cape of the mountebank, etc.) so rescuing someone from the ocean post-battle is only a problem IF the ocean also has monsters in it, and if the monsters have a high enough attack bonus to hit that guy in full plate with a shield. +7 vs AC 24 just isn't much of a threat. It needs to be like a giant sea snake or big big shark or something.

I'd have each Roc do a single pass to bite/grab what they can. If some of the Food on the Floaty Thing is hurting them, they will leave the area instead of coming back for more pain. This is actually good, since it means they may possibly carry someone off and force a chase!

-Multiple attack vectors/complications.
-Rocs do hit and grapple and run, leaving the area
-Don't forget to account for all the sails and rigging being in the way if it's a sailing ship
-Even with 3 Rocs, expect the party to chase them off quickly or bring one down in a single round.

[Keravath]

There are several ways you could justify having multiple rocs and set the situation appropriately.

You could have some isolated rocky islands within 10-20 miles of the ship. One of these is a roost for the female roc. The other rocs in the scenario are males either 2 or 3 depending on how hard the encounter needs to be who are vying for the attention of the female. This makes them more aggressive, willing to take risks, and gives you the balance option of having them attack each other if it looks like it is going badly for the PCs.

A roc is only CR11 and lacks ranged attacks. Their main defence is the large amount of hit points.

You won't destroy the ship for plot reasons but there is nothing wrong with damaging it (and the players don't know that you won't sink it so they have to protect against it), unless the module is on a really constrained time line where a delay of a few hours for repairs would be an issue.

You can also have the rocs grab PCs to feed to the female (after biting their heads off of course :) ). So they may not drop them into the ocean right away unless the "food" starts poking their feet with something sharp. Hopefully, someone in the group has water walking/water breathing as rituals - otherwise the water will be an "interesting" challenge.

[da newt]

Can you swim in heavy armor?

I think I'll add a little weather (5' seas & rain = DC 12 CON save vs seasick aka poisoned, and a wet rolling deck requiring a DC 12 DEX save or a free hand holding onto something sturdy every round - you fall prone w/ a fail over 6 and overboard w/ a fail of 6 or less) and some low clouds for areas of cover for the Roc. Of course there's a giant shark just waiting to chomp anyone in the water.

Then if it looks to be a push over for the party, I'll have a handful of Chuul attack. Grappled and paralyzed should be fun and they can always take their captives into the ocean if I need to turn it up a notch.

The encounter serves as a chance for the newly leveled up PCs to strut their stuff but also realize that we aren't tier 2 anymore ...

[Zuras]

I’ve never seen rocs threaten a tier 3 party. They’re just big bags of damage and HP. Your best bet is to have a roc grab one PC and try to fly away, or as others have noted, make it about keeping the ship intact as the roc tries to use it for nest material.

Basically, you might be able to threaten an individual character, but unless the roc isn’t acting like an animal there’s not too much you can do. The most memorable encounters I’ve had with rocs in T3 were actually when the players were trying not to hurt it (Druid polymorphed it into a seagull and fed it goodberries to make it go away).

[da newt]

"I’ve never seen rocs threaten a tier 3 party. They’re just big bags of damage and HP."

Concur 100%. Basic big beasts but they do grapple and fly, so I'm hoping to grab a PC or two and have an opportunity for a few folks to end up in the water. It will have to go very wrong for this to be a real threat to the party, and then I'll bring in some Chuul for phase 2 just to make them work for it a bit, but they should come out of it feeling pretty smug.

There is a pretty good boss fight at the end of the mod that could be an actual challenge, but this encounter is mostly just for fun.

[Trafalgar]

Can you swim in heavy armor?

I feel like there have been very long threads on this topic. My own thought is that a PC can do it but not easily and not indefinitely. So I would require a DC 20 or 25 Athletics Check when are dropped into the water to get back to the surface. After that, I don't know. Another check every time they try to do something beyond focusing on staying afloat?

[Zhorn]

Be very wary about repeat checks. The more often a check is made the more likely they are to fail (same in reverse, the more a check is made the more likely a success will occur).

If the check is to happen every round (end of turn) then have it be reasonably low. DC 10 is ideal, rarely as high as DC 13 and never higher. This would be 1-round effects like staying balanced on the ship during a storm (vs Prone), or fighting off sea sickness (vs Poisoned)

Reserve the high checks for things that you only need to overcome once per encounter, such as how Frightful Presence stipulates a success makes you immune for 24 hours. These are your DC 17+ ranges. Repeat checks are to break this effect, not apply it.

Your middle ground checks (DC 14-16) are the 'until situations change' types where success holds after a success but the situation can be repeated multiple times during the encounter. These could be your swimming while above half encumbrance checks, you only need to succeed once to get to the surface of the water, and the result holds until something drags you back under (ie: a shark bite pulling you down). If you want an armor penalty for swimming, go with disadvantage for the same equipment that would impose it on stealth (logic being it restricts movement).