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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default power creep in starting ability scores

    What is the current standard for generating ability scores? We are starting a new game soon with some people I've never played with before. I have previously used the standard RAW process of 4d6, drop lowest, assign rolls to scores as you choose. However, two players want to add an additional component to the ability score generation, which is (on top of 4d6, drop lowest): "reroll any 1s or 2s as many times as needed to not have any dice with 1s or 2s". They said this is how their other campaign did ability scores. Is this normal practice now? It seems really excessive to me. I honestly thought 4d6 drop lowest seemed a little over-powered (every single character in the campaign with that rule had at least one 18 score).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Point buy or standard array is still very much the norm in my group. We actually used to roll but since it gave too much inter-party inbalance. So over time i've seen starting stat power go down rather then up. Especially since you don't need as much anymore with the power creep in classes and increase in customisation options.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    What is the current standard for generating ability scores? We are starting a new game soon with some people I've never played with before. I have previously used the standard RAW process of 4d6, drop lowest, assign rolls to scores as you choose. However, two players want to add an additional component to the ability score generation, which is (on top of 4d6, drop lowest): "reroll any 1s or 2s as many times as needed to not have any dice with 1s or 2s". They said this is how their other campaign did ability scores. Is this normal practice now? It seems really excessive to me. I honestly thought 4d6 drop lowest seemed a little over-powered (every single character in the campaign with that rule had at least one 18 score).
    If you reroll all 1s and 2s, that should be 3d6, no drop.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    27 point buy is most common online.
    IRL I see mostly 4d6b3 with a reroll if your scores are out of line with everyone else.

    I just use 27pb when I Dm.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    You need a very special group to play with rolled stats. Unless you are very lucky, there's going to be like a +5 imbalance from the best rolls to the worst, and it feels really terrible when your best starting stat after modifiers is a 15-16, and another character is rocking a 19-20 and two 17's. Rolling stats is far more trouble than it's worth.*

    Use point buy and do away with the nonsense. If you want to do suped-up characters, do a 29 or 30 or whatever number y'all decide on. But everyone getting the same points to work with is the correct move to make.

    *only way I would use rolled stats is if I was running an incredibly deadly game where characters were expected to die fairly frequently. Then at least no one would feel locked into a sub-par stat character while their teammates get to be Adonis.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    My table still rolls, we share the same array (each player rolling one or two stats instead of 6).
    Roll for it
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    What is the current standard for generating ability scores? We are starting a new game soon with some people I've never played with before. I have previously used the standard RAW process of 4d6, drop lowest, assign rolls to scores as you choose. However, two players want to add an additional component to the ability score generation, which is (on top of 4d6, drop lowest): "reroll any 1s or 2s as many times as needed to not have any dice with 1s or 2s". They said this is how their other campaign did ability scores. Is this normal practice now? It seems really excessive to me. I honestly thought 4d6 drop lowest seemed a little over-powered (every single character in the campaign with that rule had at least one 18 score).
    i wouldn't say there's any 'standard.' different groups are gonna do things differently. most online discussion boards, such as this, probably assume either standard array or pointbuy. but thats just because thats the rules. as for your specific situation I would probably not give in to the players, specifically because of their reasoning. they aren't arguing that it might be cool to play higher power characters, or anything to do with your game. The logic 'its how we did it at a different table' IMO needs to be stamped out immediately (politely of course). and if the players aren't cool with that, then i'd imagine they're not players you'd want to play with to begin with. because thats a mentality that can carry over into game. 'oh, our old DM let us do X'. where X can be anything from ignoring certain restrictions (that you might prefer to not ignore) to pulling off crazy overpowered combos that don't work by RaW/RaI. It *can* get quite toxic. but of course, that is entirely up to you. i don't know anyone involved.


    Personally, i have several methods i've used to generate ability scores, and i'll use whichever i feel like for a given group/campaign. my current group started with standard array.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Recruitment Template
    Ability Scores: Pick six numbers. These are your pre-racial stats. No number may be higher than 18 or less than 8. You may modify them freely up until the game starts, and may pick duplicate numbers.
    This is what I do. I used to have issues with the older version.

    See, it used to be "Pick six numbers, 3-18", and people kept CRIPPLING themselves! But now with the 8 minimum, I haven't had people trying for 3 Wisdom PCs. :P
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. I used to have issues with the older version.

    See, it used to be "Pick six numbers, 3-18", and people kept CRIPPLING themselves! But now with the 8 minimum, I haven't had people trying for 3 Wisdom PCs. :P
    Really? People just freely pick their own scores, no restrictions?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
    Really? People just freely pick their own scores, no restrictions?
    Yup. A lot of people get nervous, so if they can't decide, I just offer the array of 18 18 16 14 12 10 to use.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Yup. A lot of people get nervous, so if they can't decide, I just offer the array of 18 18 16 14 12 10 to use.
    Huh.

    It runs counter to the Game Theory part of my mind, but I could see it working.

    I think the part I find more jarring than potentially have strong stats across the board is starting with a 20. That's the part that seems excessive.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
    Huh.

    It runs counter to the Game Theory part of my mind, but I could see it working.

    I think the part I find more jarring than potentially have strong stats across the board is starting with a 20. That's the part that seems excessive.
    Honestly, the difference between an 18 and a 20 isn't that big.

    A game at level 5 with a PC that had 18 in their stat and 20 (or even 16 vs. 20) isn't a huge deal. Plus, secondary and tertiary stats are primarily defensive in nature, so even if you had all 20s, you're mostly just more durable to save effects, rather than much stronger offensively.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I am baffled by any preference for rolled abilities over point buy.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Players like rolling dice.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    Players like rolling dice.
    I do NOT like rolling dice for permanent things like ability scores or (especially!) HP.

    I don't want a game where one player has 16 16 15 15 14 13, another player has 27 point buy, and I'm stuck with 12 10 8 8 6 4.

    I don't mind other players having more stats total, but the main issue is not "I'm good, you're better," but "You're good, I'm not even competent."
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Clearly we can at least agree that the worst option is the very old-school style "Roll 3d6. This is your Strength. Roll 3d6. This is your Dexterity... etc etc, now choose a race and class from among those that you meet the ability score requirements for."

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I did my most recent campaign rolling. We all got together, everybody watched, and we did 4d6, reroll any 1s (the first time) and drop the lowest. Out of 6 players, nobody had an 18, half of them had a single 17, everybody had at least a couple 15-16s and there were only a few 10 and under scores.

    One person did have scores which were a little less than everybody else's on average. I could have given that person one reroll or I could have given them an early magic item in the first adventure to balance them out a little bit but in the end they decided they wanted to play a character who was a little more average than his friends and had a little bit of a complex about it and we have been having fun ever since.

    Is there power creep? Sure. But it's not significant where it can't be balanced. Everybody is about +1 better on most rolls than they would be with point buy. Do what is fun for you.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Standard roll of 6x 4d6k3 or 27 point buy. If you roll and don't get what you wanted, tough luck, you've gambled and lost, no takebacks, no switching to point buy.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Standard roll of 6x 4d6k3 or 27 point buy. If you roll and don't get what you wanted, tough luck, you've gambled and lost, no takebacks, no switching to point buy.
    I don't get that attitude. Plus, it encourages people to suicide PCs to get better rolls-unless you force players to keep their stat rolls on new PCs, which would encourage not playing if you roll badly.
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  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    When using dice rolling I don't mind choosing among two or three rolled arrays. Of course there's a luck factor, but a bad array hurts more than a superb array helps. There is an annoyance when someone has a superb array while you have a good array, but you're not losing anything. A good array is still a good array. A bad array has the game math fight against you. The character won't work, so choosing among arrays helps offsets the inherent luck factor. Rerolling 1s and 2s I don't like because that's tipping the scales. It feels like cheating.
    Last edited by Pex; 2022-08-08 at 10:16 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I prefer a non-standard array, myself.

    15,15,13,13,11,9

    Makes being a standard human modestly less terrible - if still not great - when compared to the standard array where the +1s across the board only meaningfully influencing two out of six stats.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I like rolling for ability scores, and i don't mind the slight difference of power between PCs, but rolling away 1s and 2s just screams of cowardice. The whole point of rolling dice is for the random factor, you could roll high or low. These guys sound like they only want the highs but not lows. Absolute travesty, I say.

    Most DMs already allow do-overs, if you don't like your set of scores you can choose to reroll all of them. I would have a VERY low opinion of the player if they ever request rolling away 1s and 2s.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I don't get that attitude. Plus, it encourages people to suicide PCs to get better rolls-unless you force players to keep their stat rolls on new PCs, which would encourage not playing if you roll badly.
    Nobody forces the player to roll, they can pick point buy if they are afraid to take a risk for a possible reward. If the player wants to suicide character because he lost the gamble, he's not welcome at my table anyway.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2022-08-08 at 10:40 PM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Nobody forces the player to roll, they can pick point buy if they are afraid to take a risk for a possible reward.
    Let me put it this way.

    You have four players.
    Two choose point buy-they're fine. Their PCs will meet system expectations.
    Two choose to roll. One rolls great-17 16 14 12 10 8. They're happy! One rolls poorly-12 10 10 8 8 7. Not only are they not happy, they're underperforming. They might be an active liability.

    Unless it's a one-off or something similar, I don't want to punish players for not rolling well before the game even starts. Especially since there's NOTHING you can do (outside of cheating, which is not acceptable) to improve your results. It's just luck.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I prefer the 27 point buy specifically because it keeps all the PCs on even footing.

    I've played plenty of 4d6k3-rerolls 1s as well. I used to prefer that method due to getting higher on average. But it also opens up the possibility of one player rolling exceptionally well or another player rolling meh, leading to a fairly significant power discrepancy. I've been on both sides of such discrepancies, and I find neither one fun.
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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Honestly, the difference between an 18 and a 20 isn't that big.

    A game at level 5 with a PC that had 18 in their stat and 20 (or even 16 vs. 20) isn't a huge deal. Plus, secondary and tertiary stats are primarily defensive in nature, so even if you had all 20s, you're mostly just more durable to save effects, rather than much stronger offensively.
    Yah but starting at a 20...idk lol it's irrational. I firmly believe characters should get a feat at 1st, but now I'm tripping over them starting with a 20 because I'm like "well there's no trade-off between feats and ASI's at 4..."

    Yeah I'm that dumb.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Dice rolling is good for players who are mostly at the table to play a role, tell a story and don't really care for the tabletop wargaming aspect of the hobby.

    They get a kick out of having unusual scores, enjoy the process of rolling dice for their stats and don't care about how big or small the numbers are because it doesn't impact their ability to talk in a funny voice.

    Point buy is better for players who are primarily at the table to play the combat minigame and show off proficiency at character creation.

    They find the discrepancy in power between players to be grating, dislike the potential for smaller bonuses on their character and aren't bothered by sameness in character stats because differentiation can come from the rest of their build, party role and so forth.

    Neither approach is correct or better than the other, but it is important to match your approach to the type of game and ensure that everyone knows what the game is about and is happy to play in that style.

    Stat generation along with allowed source books, optional rules and house rules should support the kind of game you want to run.
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. I used to have issues with the older version.

    See, it used to be "Pick six numbers, 3-18", and people kept CRIPPLING themselves! But now with the 8 minimum, I haven't had people trying for 3 Wisdom PCs. :P
    What appeals to me about this is that I can just pick what I want my ability scores to be by the end game and not worrying about needing to boost them. I can then spend all my ASIs grabbing interesting feats, using half-feats as needed to max out a primary or secondary stat. This is particularly nice on a MAD build like a paladin or monk, or any unconventional multiclass that relies on different stats (e.g. wizard/monk).

    What's frustrating is that this isn't any issue with abilities scores that start low and grow over time, it's an issue with needing to spend the same build resource to grow those ability scores as I do to gain feats. So I think I'd find a houserule that gives both a feat and ASI on every ASI to be a better solution to that particular problem. I recall coming up with what I think was a balanced version of such a rule, where you get two +1s that must be in different stats, and also in a different stat from any half-feats, unless a stat was low enough you'd never max it without a +2.

    Part of my issue is that I do tend to be an optimizer. It's one thing to build a character to do one particular thing well, when that one thing isn't necessarily the most effective build. They're still optimized, they're just optimized within specific parameters. But to deliberately play an unoptimized character would just not sit right with me. I guess what I'm saying is that with JNA's houserule, I'd feel compelled to always put an 18 into my primary and/or secondary stats, but at the same time I'd feel like I wasn't playing fair by doing so.

    I feel like D&D would benefit from making all ability scores beneficial to every character. Not necessarily equally so, but enough to create a viable trade-off. Every character wants HP, so CON is always a desirable stat. Every character wants AC, so DEX is highly sought after. But after that, none of the other stats are particularly useful, aside from whatever stat your class abilities run off of. If you don't have heavy armor proficiency, you have basically no use for STR, and mental stats basically do nothing at all. It just ends up making it pretty pointless to spread your stats around instead of focusing on your primary and secondary stats.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I let players roll 4d6b3 and reroll twice if they get dogbeans results. With the option to switch to point buy at any point. I don't want players to feel like they have bad characters, I've been a player in groups that force you to stay with bad rolls and it leans to very VERY bad incentives for the player: they want the PC to die so they can try again. I've straight up disrupted games to get my character dead just so I can try for a competent PC.

    You should have a character that you want to live, not a character that you want to die.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. I used to have issues with the older version.

    See, it used to be "Pick six numbers, 3-18", and people kept CRIPPLING themselves! But now with the 8 minimum, I haven't had people trying for 3 Wisdom PCs. :P
    Why are they picking anything except 18 in everything?

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