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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Rerolling 1s and 2s until you get at least a 3 is crazy (not only is it crazy, it's innefective. What you're doing is, effectively, rolling 1d4+2, so just go ahead and do that instead, it will save time). Rerolling 1s (one time only per die) is a small, acceptable, boost.

    My favourite stat method generation is one a former DM of mine used to have; everyone rolls 4d6b3, but the arrays are balanced with each other, creating somewhat similar arrays. People who rolled better get to choose first what array they want.

    If that sounds like too much work, another one I think is good is "choice of point buy or 4d6b3. If you don't like your rolls, you get the Standard Array". This gives a small incentive to rolling, since you won't suck even if you roll badly, but you will lose some of the customization that point-buy would allow you to have, so a very risk-averse player (or one who knows exactly what he wants from his character) might still choose point-buy.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2022-08-09 at 01:58 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Well...

    All characters starting with 6 20s would create some very odd imbalances.

    Among other things, monks and barbarians now have a better AC than the heavy armor types, and you'll never convince one to wear clothes.

    But I'm not sure it'd really break the game.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Devil

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Why are they picking anything except 18 in everything?
    Because not everyone is a power mad ******* only held back by the rules.

    I'm my groups resident optimizer/minmaxer and if given that option I'd just go with 18/16/14/12/10/10 unless I was playing something like a monk that really needs multiple ability scores, in which case I'd go with something like 16/16/16/14/12/10.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Why are they picking anything except 18 in everything?
    Because not everyone wants to play as Superman. Sometimes make-believe is more fun when you impose your own limitations.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2022-08-09 at 02:31 AM.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by chainer1216 View Post
    Because not everyone is a power mad ******* only held back by the rules.

    I'm my groups resident optimizer/minmaxer and if given that option I'd just go with 18/16/14/12/10/10 unless I was playing something like a monk that really needs multiple ability scores, in which case I'd go with something like 16/16/16/14/12/10.
    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Because not everyone wants to play as Superman. Sometimes make-believe is more fun when you impose your own limitations.
    And I suppose another answer would be "because they'd be embarrassed to do it".

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Because not everyone wants to play as Superman. Sometimes make-believe is more fun when you impose your own limitations.
    But you never get to play superman. There's always weaknesses and failures and flaws in every character. I've even played powerless characters that are just made of suck. Having 18 in every score has never been on the table and I'd sure take it, just to have taken it once.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Imp

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    But you never get to play superman. There's always weaknesses and failures and flaws in every character. I've even played powerless characters that are just made of suck. Having 18 in every score has never been on the table and I'd sure take it, just to have taken it once.
    True, but those flaws and weaknesses can be enhanced by a varied array and many (not all) will want that. Taking 18's across the board is fine, but not everyone will want to.

    It's like a coin flip; often you already know the result you want and the result you get can help to acknowledge that e.g. If the coin shows X and I'm not happy with that result I know I should take Y; just taking Y in the first place removes the need to flip the coin. In this case (choosing your scores) you remove the need to roll dice or impose arbitrary limitations from point-buy or standard array to build the character you want.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
    Really? People just freely pick their own scores, no restrictions?
    I mostly do this. The number problems it prevents vastly outweighs the number of problems that it can create.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but my personal preference is 4d6 drop 1 but with a minimum pre-racial total of 72 and at least one 15. It's easier to deal with one player being a little better than everyone else than it is to help one person who rolled badly. Though if someone prefers to just do point buy I'm not going to stop them.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Let me put it this way.

    You have four players.
    Two choose point buy-they're fine. Their PCs will meet system expectations.
    Two choose to roll. One rolls great-17 16 14 12 10 8. They're happy! One rolls poorly-12 10 10 8 8 7. Not only are they not happy, they're underperforming. They might be an active liability.

    Unless it's a one-off or something similar, I don't want to punish players for not rolling well before the game even starts. Especially since there's NOTHING you can do (outside of cheating, which is not acceptable) to improve your results. It's just luck.
    And if they don't want to rely on luck, they can take the safe choice and pick point buy. It's their choice, nobody forces them to roll. But they are not entitled to the rewad with no risk.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    And if they don't want to rely on luck, they can take the safe choice and pick point buy. It's their choice, nobody forces them to roll. But they are not entitled to the rewad with no risk.
    Being stuck for months with a character that sucks is pretty bad, and saying "well you accepted the risk, suck it up buttercup" doesn't make it suck any less. Which is why I prefer "point-buy or your choice between a 4d6b3 that you've rolled or standard array".

    If you're unlucky and roll poorly, you might not get the exact character you want, which I agree should not be a given, specially if you took the risk of rolling, but at least you will be competent. And, more importantly from the DM point of view, more in-line with the system's expectation. Why simultaneously make life worse for the player and harder for you?
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2022-08-09 at 05:49 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    Clearly we can at least agree that the worst option is the very old-school style "Roll 3d6. This is your Strength. Roll 3d6. This is your Dexterity... etc etc, now choose a race and class from among those that you meet the ability score requirements for."
    I agree to nothing. In my day Elves were a class and it was possible to have a Wizard die from having negative HP in character creation *shakes fist at sky*

    In reality we have done with 4d6 drop lowest or point buy at our table. Depending on the campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Being stuck for months with a character that sucks is pretty bad, and saying "well you accepted the risk, suck it up buttercup" doesn't make it suck any less. Which is why I prefer "point-buy or your choice between a 4d6b3 that you've rolled or standard array".

    If you're unlucky and roll poorly, you might not get the exact character you want, which I agree should not be a given, specially if you took the risk of rolling, but at least you will be competent. And, more importantly from the DM point of view, more in-line with the system's expectation. Why simultaneously make life worse for the player and harder for you?
    I've also seen a lot of 4d6 drop lowest or point buy as a back up. That way you have a floor value on your stats even if RNG hates you.
    Last edited by nickl_2000; 2022-08-09 at 06:00 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Maybe counter the "we used to do this thing which is newer than the standard thing so doing the standard thing is going backwards" with an even newer method of rolling?

    I haven't worked out the balance (if any) yet but I'm thinking of a system where you roll 30d6, (or maybe a few more) and each d6 gives you one point-buy point in the corresponding stat (so 1=str, 2=dex, 3=con, 4=int, 5=wis, 6=cha), and then you see which race and class would go with those stats. Not sure what to do with leftover points (where you need more points to up a stat), I guess something like, those can be freely redistrubuted at the end?

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    I am baffled by any preference for rolled abilities over point buy.
    I am baffled at your bafflement.
    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I do NOT like rolling dice for permanent things like ability scores or (especially!) HP.
    I always use average HP, it's just easier to do. About half of my players roll HP.
    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    Clearly we can at least agree that the worst option is the very old-school style "Roll 3d6. This is your Strength. Roll 3d6. This is your Dexterity... etc etc, now choose a race and class from among those that you meet the ability score requirements for."
    It worked for the original game where stats weren't as important. Even in AD&D 1e the 4d6b3 was a standard method. For 5e's math 3d6 in order doesn't fit the game's assumptions nor its structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Standard roll of 6x 4d6k3 or 27 point buy. If you roll and don't get what you wanted, tough luck, you've gambled and lost, no takebacks, no switching to point buy.
    Fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Rerolling 1s and 2s I don't like because that's tipping the scales. It feels like cheating.
    Yes. The Drop lowest is supposed to help account for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrykhor View Post
    Most DMs already allow do-overs, if you don't like your set of scores you can choose to reroll all of them. I would have a VERY low opinion of the player if they ever request rolling away 1s and 2s.
    Most tables that have rolls allow complete re roll. Someone mentioned "we all roll 6 time 4d6b3 and figure out which array any of us wants to use" - that certainly helps people mitigate a cold day with the dice on Chargen. Two DMs I know have this approach:
    "You can keep what you roll. If you don't have one score of 16 or better you can re roll the whole thing." Everyone is happy with that. Wide variety of scores.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    It's easier to deal with one player being a little better than everyone else than it is to help one person who rolled badly. Though if someone prefers to just do point buy I'm not going to stop them.
    That's a good approach.
    One of my checks as a DM is if the aggregate of the 4d6b3 is less than +3 proficiency bonus total (example: 15 15 15 8 8 8 is an aggregate +3) I offer a total re roll. Saw a guy do this one time: Roll 3d6 three times. take those scores and subtract them from 25, those are your other three rolls. (Caps at 7 and 18 on either end)
    Example: 8, 13, 12 ends up being 8, 13, 12, 17, 12, 13. Pretty nice starting position.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-08-09 at 09:40 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    In 3.5 I would do all 18's - but as I learn about 5e, I feel like that's a less good fit, but I still like letting people be more powerful, so I might bump the point buy to 32 or something. Having all high stats never really broke anything, it just made everybody a little tougher, and it helped bridge the gap between the fighter and the wizard. They both got a boost, but the fighter got a bigger boost.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I just stick with point buy. I dislike the grumbling or shenanigans or begging/bargaining that goes with rolling getting low results or the power creep from all the alternate methods. Plus it means people can do all that on their own without anyone else questioning that five 18s you totally rolled.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    To the OP ... the short answer is that there hasn't been any general power creep in starting ability scores that I have seen or that (apparently) most of the other posters have seen. Your players are just looking to start with better stats and it seems this was the method another DM used.

    The suggestion to use 4d6k3rr(1,2) will generate stats on the high side but the benefit is that you should likely get all players with at least "playable" stats. I know some folks like to "torture" themselves with low stats but I often find that leads to meme playstyles and sterotypical behavior associated with each stat (and sometimes characters that just shouldn't be adventuring).

    Personally, I use point buy 95% of the time but rolled stats do provide some variety at the expense of sometimes having characters with very disparate abilities (though there are a lot of good suggestions here to mitigate that issue).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    I agree with the others in using point buy, it makes it fair for everyone. But if you wanted maybe throw in an optional bonus +2 to one (or two) of the players lowest stats. It wont really benefit them mechanically but the player doesn't have to role-play dump stats (a martial character can be an average person in the mental stats)

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    The suggested method by those players will raise the average attributes fairly significantly. That said, as long as everyone is using the same system it shouldn't really affect the party member to member. You'll probably need to up your encounter strength and be prepared for more feats as the game goes on.

    My group usually rolls 4db3, but on occasion I've had them roll up to 7dB3 when I specifically wanted them to be demigod like and well above the average person. It was fine.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynaert View Post
    Maybe counter the "we used to do this thing which is newer than the standard thing so doing the standard thing is going backwards" with an even newer method of rolling?

    I haven't worked out the balance (if any) yet but I'm thinking of a system where you roll 30d6, (or maybe a few more) and each d6 gives you one point-buy point in the corresponding stat (so 1=str, 2=dex, 3=con, 4=int, 5=wis, 6=cha), and then you see which race and class would go with those stats. Not sure what to do with leftover points (where you need more points to up a stat), I guess something like, those can be freely redistrubuted at the end?
    Out of curiosity I tried your method for 3 rolls. Overall not a bad distribution.

    11,12,14,14,10,14 (No points left over)
    15,13,9,13,12,11 (3 points left over, 1 STR, 1 DEX, 1 CON)
    11,13,15,12,13,10 (2 Points left over, 1 DEX, 1 WIS)

    I suppose a rule like "If you have 1 excess point from a higher stat you may move that point to a lower stat, if you have 2 or more excess points you may move a point from one stat to another that also had an excess point. Odd numbers of points may be moved to a lower stat according to the prior rule." (Im sure that could be worded better.)

    Hypothetically this is a self-balancing system. Even if you get none of 2 numbers the others should result in stats of 14 or 15.
    Probably decide on a stat cap or point value for stats beyond 15, (11 or 12 points for a 16 etc.)

    Overall interesting enough for me to keep in my back pocket if one of my groups ask about rolling stats.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
    Huh.

    It runs counter to the Game Theory part of my mind, but I could see it working.

    I think the part I find more jarring than potentially have strong stats across the board is starting with a 20. That's the part that seems excessive.
    The thing is, letting people pick turns off the "Must have the highest possible scores because this is a competition" part of the brain, and turns on the "what will be interesting because there plainly is no competition" part of the brain.

    The second is almost globally better.

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    Players like rolling dice.
    IMAO this is crap. If it's actually a preference for random or for rolling then why all the fancy dice rolling methods? If people like rolling dice and like random, 3d6 six times in order is fine.

    People want higher scores than the 5th edition point buy will let them have, and find that "I want to roll dice" is a fine way to get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by tchntm43 View Post
    Clearly we can at least agree that the worst option is the very old-school style "Roll 3d6. This is your Strength. Roll 3d6. This is your Dexterity... etc etc, now choose a race and class from among those that you meet the ability score requirements for."
    I'm old school. There are no racial minimums in Men and Magic as best I can recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Why are they picking anything except 18 in everything?
    Because, it's more interesting and fun to choose something else, so they do, because once you say "choose anything" then it becomes obvious to most people that 6 scores of 18 is BORING. But people get to play what they want, which is good.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    The proposed system of 4d6k3 reroll 1s and 2s indefinitely its the exact same thing as rolling 4d4k3 +6, which means each score on average will roughly be about 2.5 to 3 points higher (haven't run the numbers though, but that's my guess, ill see if I can whip them out fast, if not im prolly not gonna do it)

    My table usually does 2 sets of 4d6k3, pick whichever set you want, if you don't like any of those you can do a 3rd set but must use it.

    Over the years we've tried some variations of this, the only other that I remember popping up more than once was 2d6+6 but scores are in order (1st roll is STR, 2nd roll is DEX, etc)

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    If we're just suggesting models, a party-based method can help build (or at least make one aware of) group dynamics.
    Whatever else may be in their orders, a picket's ultimate responsibility is to die noisily.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Another version of equality:

    Everybody rolls 4d6k3.

    The PCs take the stat list of whoever rolls the best.

    And now it's fair, and rolling matters :)

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    If people like rolling dice and like random, 3d6 six times in order is fine.
    In a previous edition, yes, but with the way ability scores are more influential in 5e, 4d6b3 (which reaches back to AD&D 1e) is also fine, with the ability to put scores where they want them also being fine. I don't find your either or position to hold much water. I did like B/X's 9-12 = +0, 13-15 =+1, 16-17 =+2, 18 =+3 (and its inverse) to be a better way to handle bonuses. And you can swap scores out at char gen on a 2:1 or 3:1 basis for prime requisites.
    There are no racial minimums in Men and Magic as best I can recall.
    And if your prime requisite was 13 or better you got 5% extra experience, and if it was 16 or better you got 10% extra XP. AD&D introduced racial mins in 1978's PHB.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-08-09 at 03:57 PM.
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    We've always rolled ability scores and only once has it ever been a problem, whether we've had high or low scores. These days I'd probably lean towards everyone just getting to pick their ability scores, it doesn't matter much in the long run. When we last did that we found we had a lower average than when we rolled, heh.

    But I will say that to anyone concerned with internal power imbalances when rolling, Snake Draft is a really good way of getting the fun of rolling (and not having everyone use the same array) but also prevent any larger discrepancies between party members. It's not perfect because it requires the entire party to roll stats at the same time, so you can't use it to replace a dead character, but it presents a cool twist and some new challenges to party creation. It was probably my favorite method of rolling.

    Here's a link to Snake Draft for reference.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. I used to have issues with the older version.

    See, it used to be "Pick six numbers, 3-18", and people kept CRIPPLING themselves! But now with the 8 minimum, I haven't had people trying for 3 Wisdom PCs. :P
    >_O As an optimizer...the fact that people are choosing 3 for their ability scores hurts me...My optimizing ways are also why this would not work for me. XD Why not just put 18 into your primary stats, 17 into secondary for your racial bonus, and at least a 14 to 15 everywhere else for Resilient. Personally, I go for 27 Point Buy, 32 if I want powerful PCs.
    Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2022-08-09 at 03:59 PM.
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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Warder View Post
    Here's a link to Snake Draft for reference.
    Interesting but complicated, thanks for the link.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Warder View Post
    We've always rolled ability scores and only once has it ever been a problem, whether we've had high or low scores. These days I'd probably lean towards everyone just getting to pick their ability scores, it doesn't matter much in the long run. When we last did that we found we had a lower average than when we rolled, heh.

    But I will say that to anyone concerned with internal power imbalances when rolling, Snake Draft is a really good way of getting the fun of rolling (and not having everyone use the same array) but also prevent any larger discrepancies between party members. It's not perfect because it requires the entire party to roll stats at the same time, so you can't use it to replace a dead character, but it presents a cool twist and some new challenges to party creation. It was probably my favorite method of rolling.

    Here's a link to Snake Draft for reference.
    This snake draft is pretty much the one my old DM used, that I was talking about. Though the way he used it, attributes were not in order, which basically meant that the "drafting" could be automated (as it is assumed every player would pick the highest stat available), making it faster. Players just had to choose between the final arrays, not for each stat.

    Using the same dice as the link above, here's what the arrays would look like:
    18 14 14 11 11 7 (75)
    17 14 13 12 11 10 (77)
    17 14 13 12 11 10 (77)
    15 14 13 12 10 10 (74)
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2022-08-09 at 04:24 PM.

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    Default Re: power creep in starting ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Interesting but complicated, thanks for the link.
    Honestly the document makes it seem more complicated than it really is. Everyone rolls an array, 4d6 drop lowest, in order. You'll have one STR score per player, one INT score per player, etc. Then you draft the scores one at a time and reverse direction when you get to the last player. That's all there's really to it.

    It places some restrictions on character creation - there's no guarantee you'll get the stats to make the character you've envisioned, so this is only really applicable if everyone goes into it with a fairly open mind about what kind of character they'd like to play. On the flip side, the group gets to put the party together as a group. It's been a great session zero every time we've used this.

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