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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2006

    Default My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    I got a homebrew fantasy setting. I think I need more non-humanoid monsters.

    I'm thinking a souped up mountain goat. Maybe call it Death Goat (English) or Mortzieg (German) or Morhircus (Latin). Theoretically Death Goats could be tamed by a bad ass villain (or a hero, but I got a lot of mountain bandits), but I would want Death Goats to be a threat on their own.

    As a baseline. I'm thinking souped up mountain goats that have the ability to use Spider Climb as an innate ability. In other words, they can run up and down sheer surfaces perfectly at high speed, but they cannot quite fly.

    I'm thinking, bigger and stronger than ordinary mountain goat, but I'm not sure if they needs more un-goat like things like fangs, a breath weapon, or sapience.

    What do add to a mountain goat besides strength, speed, and spider powers?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Necrotic disease inflicting horns, similar to mummy rot. The Death goat engages in hit and run attacks with regular mountain goat minions.

    Branding Iron Hoofs that mark victims with a curse, making them grow more animalistic, hungry, angry and horny.

    Intelligence without true sapience. Set up rockfalls. You're walking along the mountain pass, hear a terrifying bleat and theres a rockslide barelling down towards you.

    Fur matted with blood grants damage resistance when they deal or receive a critical hit.

    No fang, but they still eat flesh. Introduce one ripping a hunk of meat off a victim with its blunt teeth.
    I Am A:Neutral Good Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Give it Matter Eater Lad powers
    "If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins

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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    I love designing low-magic and no-magic creatures and abilities in fantasy settings. I think that defaulting to magical effects every time you want something extraordinary cheapens magic (which should feel special!) and makes cause and effect unintuitive/arbitrary (which makes removes the puzzle-solving element of overcoming challenges).

    So I don't think your Death Goat needs to be anything other than a bigger, stronger, faster mountain goat. On the contrary, magic powers and ungoatlike qualities like eating flesh would make it a LESS interesting creature. Instead, I recommend you find interesting mechanics and lore to represent being a bigger, stronger and faster goat (besides just higher defense/damage/speed).

    Assuming you're using 5e, here's how I would write the Death Goat.
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2022-08-10 at 01:04 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Scalenex View Post
    I got a homebrew fantasy setting. I think I need more non-humanoid monsters.

    I'm thinking a souped up mountain goat. Maybe call it Death Goat (English) or Mortzieg (German) or Morhircus (Latin). Theoretically Death Goats could be tamed by a bad ass villain (or a hero, but I got a lot of mountain bandits), but I would want Death Goats to be a threat on their own.

    As a baseline. I'm thinking souped up mountain goats that have the ability to use Spider Climb as an innate ability. In other words, they can run up and down sheer surfaces perfectly at high speed, but they cannot quite fly.

    I'm thinking, bigger and stronger than ordinary mountain goat, but I'm not sure if they needs more un-goat like things like fangs, a breath weapon, or sapience.

    What do add to a mountain goat besides strength, speed, and spider powers?
    Dire Goat, eh? I like it. Core concept: natural gravity manipulation abilities. This explains the supernatural climbing/jumping ability, and also the attack strategy I'm about to describe.

    Make it beefy, with nice HP for it's CR, with resistance or immunity to fall damage and give its horns a powerful knockback effect that also gives the target vulnerability to fall damage on a hit. This is a part of it's natural gravity manipulation ability: when they hit you, you fall harder.

    Their core tactic is to knock their opponent down off of a cliff (dealing double fall damage due to vulnerability) then they jump down after the opponent and land on top of them, splitting their own fall damage (but the other guy is still vulnerable, while the Dire Goat is resistant or immune.)

    As such, they are much deadlier on their home terrain than they are anywhere else.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl45DM! View Post
    Necrotic disease inflicting horns, similar to mummy rot. The Death goat engages in hit and run attacks with regular mountain goat minions.

    Branding Iron Hoofs that mark victims with a curse, making them grow more animalistic, hungry, angry and horny.

    Intelligence without true sapience. Set up rockfalls. You're walking along the mountain pass, hear a terrifying bleat and there's a rockslide barreling down towards you.

    Fur matted with blood grants damage resistance when they deal or receive a critical hit.

    No fang, but they still eat flesh. Introduce one ripping a hunk of meat off a victim with its blunt teeth.
    I like this concept a lot. It would go well with the fighting style of my Chaotic Evil god of disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    I love designing low-magic and no-magic creatures and abilities in fantasy settings. I think that defaulting to magical effects every time you want something extraordinary cheapens magic (which should feel special!) and makes cause and effect unintuitive/arbitrary (which makes removes the puzzle-solving element of overcoming challenges).

    So I don't think your Death Goat needs to be anything other than a bigger, stronger, faster mountain goat. On the contrary, magic powers and ungoatlike qualities like eating flesh would make it a LESS interesting creature. Instead, I recommend you find interesting mechanics and lore to represent being a bigger, stronger and faster goat (besides just higher defense/damage/speed).

    Assuming you're using 5e, here's how I would write the Death Goat.
    This concept goes in a different direction from Lvl45DM! recommended but I also like it a lot.

    I have agree with your philosophy. When I make an animalistic magical beast, I like their magical abilities to play to the animals strengths rather than to add new strengths. In this case, ordinary mountains goats are already sure footed mountain climbers, so magical climbing abilities seems like a natural extension of a mountain goat's abilities.

    I do believe less is often more when adding crazy powers to monsters. Though I make an exception to ancient monsters. I like the idea that creatures "from a time when the rules of nature were less set" have more random powers. Like Rick Riordians depiction of Kampe in his novel series.

    I do really like the idea that they hate other herbivores. That's a nice twist from all the predatory monsters. And my PCs do a lot of caravan guarding duty in the mountains so there are plenty of horses and and mules to provoke a Death Goat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Dire Goat, eh? I like it. Core concept: natural gravity manipulation abilities. This explains the supernatural climbing/jumping ability, and also the attack strategy I'm about to describe.

    Make it beefy, with nice HP for it's CR, with resistance or immunity to fall damage and give its horns a powerful knockback effect that also gives the target vulnerability to fall damage on a hit. This is a part of it's natural gravity manipulation ability: when they hit you, you fall harder.

    Their core tactic is to knock their opponent down off of a cliff (dealing double fall damage due to vulnerability) then they jump down after the opponent and land on top of them, splitting their own fall damage (but the other guy is still vulnerable, while the Dire Goat is resistant or immune.)

    As such, they are much deadlier on their home terrain than they are anywhere else.
    Another fine concept!

    I think I'm going to run with a bit of everyone's ideas. Lvl45DM! necrotic Death Goat will be an extraplanar creature and I think I'll go with GalacticAxekick's territorial herbivore hating concept and add a dash of gravity manipulation from Damon_Tor's post.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    In terms of movement riders on attacks, include the ability to hook people with their horns and suplex them as well as the more obvious headbutt. That gives them a lot more options to yeet unwary PC's off of cliffs.

    Play up the sure footedness, not only can they basically walk on walls, they can leap out from a cliffside and catch a flying enemy by surprise landing a hit then bouncing back off their victim to reach solid ground again.
    I am rel.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
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    Oct 2006

    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Here is what I wrote about Death Goats. The article is 90% fluff and 10% crunch. The Crunch is in the Sidebar.

    I used the scariest mountain goat photo I could find that was open source. Sadly mountain goats are not naturally menacing.

    I use a homebrew system merging D&D themes and magic and White Wolf Publishing's d10 mechanics system to create D&D10.

    It would be pretty easy for anyone who wants to do so to cook up serviceable Pathfinder or 5th edition stats or any game system really. So hopefully one or two of you all reading this thread will throw a Death Goat against the party at some point.
    Last edited by Scalenex; 2022-08-11 at 02:37 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Mar 2013

    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    So here's a route you can take:

    A time or two, the PCs encounter these goats on soft, level ground. They basically have boar/dire boar stats, except replacing any special attacks with adding a 10-foot free Push attempt stapled onto their horn attack, with a bonus if it's a Charge attack. On soft, level ground, this is little more than an inconvenience, followed by a hearty meal.

    Then!

    After a difficult Skill Challenge, in which the lead PC or two have made a variety of Jump, Climb, and Rope Use checks to get to a stable but narrow ledge, they start pounding iron spikes into the rock wall to tie a rope and...around the corner pokes a shaggy, horned head.

    The PC or two at the top suddenly realize they could be six seconds from being ejected from their roost, which means they'd not only have to redo the entire Skill Challenge, but take Xd6 of Gravity Is A Harsh Mistress damage before their second go at it. Do they have speak with animals? A firecracker or thunderstone? A tin can to eat? Will they attempt to one-shot the goat, defend against the upcoming charge, or quickly tie the rope to the spike before they get ragdolled down the rocky slope?

    A goat doesn't need demonic resistances, life drain or a sonic bleat attack to be a nemasis. It just needs to defend a six inch "tightrope" of stone with surprisingly effective traction. Building up a situation in which a common, nonmagical goat strikes terror in the hearts of the party could be quite the roller coaster of emotions, followed by curry -- now that's a souped-up goat.
    Last edited by Breccia; 2022-08-11 at 08:53 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    I love designing low-magic and no-magic creatures and abilities in fantasy settings. I think that defaulting to magical effects every time you want something extraordinary cheapens magic (which should feel special!) and makes cause and effect unintuitive/arbitrary (which makes removes the puzzle-solving element of overcoming challenges).

    So I don't think your Death Goat needs to be anything other than a bigger, stronger, faster mountain goat. On the contrary, magic powers and ungoatlike qualities like eating flesh would make it a LESS interesting creature. Instead, I recommend you find interesting mechanics and lore to represent being a bigger, stronger and faster goat (besides just higher defense/damage/speed).

    Assuming you're using 5e, here's how I would write the Death Goat.
    They shouldn't be stronger than a Mammoth (I mean, strength stat).

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    They shouldn't be stronger than a Mammoth (I mean, strength stat).
    If you're grabbing a mammoth out of the Monster Manual, sure, this Death Goat is stronger than a mammoth.

    But I would never grab a mammoth out of the monster manual, or any dangerous beast for that matter. Their stats don't make sense, and they're too mechanically limited to be interesting enemies, mounts, pets, or wild shape/polymorph forms.

    Instead of scaled the goat relative to the official mammoth--a creature I would never use at the table--I scaled the goat relative to creatures I would actually use. And the mammoth I would run at my table (like the elephant in my Bestiary) would have a Strength score of 30.
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2022-08-11 at 02:56 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    They shouldn't be stronger than a Mammoth (I mean, strength stat).
    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    If you're grabbing a mammoth out of the Monster Manual, sure, this Death Goat is stronger than a mammoth.

    But I would never grab a mammoth out of the monster manual, or any dangerous beast for that matter. Their stats don't make sense, and they're too mechanically limited to be interesting enemies, mounts, pets, or wild shape/polymorph forms.

    Instead of scaled the goat relative to the official mammoth--a creature I would never use at the table--I scaled the goat relative to creatures I would actually use. And the mammoth I would run at my table (like the elephant in my Bestiary) would have a Strength score of 30.
    I'm still working on the stats. I initially based my system on White Wolf's d10 system in which humans have a Strength score ranging between 1 to 5.

    The system works pretty well for humans and human-like creatures but it gets a little wonky with non-humanoid monsters.

    I'm never sure what Strength score to give giant monsters. I believe in one of the White Wolf books Wooly Mammoths had a Strength of 8. I gave Death Goats a 7. I suppose i could give Death Goats a Strength score anywhere between 5 and 8. For a non-humanoid, their Strength trait doesn't have to be directly applicable to their natural attacks.

    The system I use does have a feat of Strength table. Characters can accomplish feats of strength at or beneath their level quite easily. Characters can go up the chart temporarily with a good Willpower roll.


    0 Tear a piece of parchment, lift 10 pounds

    1 Rip a shirt, lift 40 pounds

    2 Smash a chair, lift 100 pounds

    3 Kick through a wattle wall, lift 250 pounds

    4 Smash a barrel, lift 400 pounds

    5 Overturn a laden cart, lift 650 pounds

    6 Rip chain mail, lift 800 pounds

    7 Bend a one-inch thick iron bar, lift 900 pounds

    8 Lift a horse, lift 1000 pounds

    9 Punch through a palisade, lift 1200 pounds

    10 Lift a laden cart, lift 1500 pounds

    11 Lift a portcullis, lift 2000 pounds

    12 Break a small tree, lift 3000 pounds

    13 Lift a siege engine, lift 4000 pounds

    14 Punch through a stone wall, lift 5000 pounds

    15 Topple a castle wall, lift 6000 pounds


    Based on this, I'd probably give a Wooly Mammoth a Strength score of 9. But Wooly Mammoths are extinct in my world (much like ours) but my Nature god has created some magic horns that can summon extinct animals temporally, the Horn of the Wooly Mammoth, the Horn of the Sabretooth, etc, so a mammoth might show up some day.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    I just use 5e rules for carrying capacity to determine Strength.
    • a medium creature can carry a number of pounds equal to 30 times its Strength score slowly but steadily.
    • for each size a creature is above medium, double this number
    • for each size a creature is below medium, half this number.
    • the Powerful Build feature makes you count as one size larger for the purpose of this calculation


    Medium-sized panthers can carry 500 lb antelopes up trees? 500 / 30 = 16.6. They get 17 Strength

    Large sized horses are expected to pull at least 1500 lbs? 1500 / (30 * 2) = 25. They get 25 Strength.

    Large sized bulls are expected to pull at least their weight (3000 lbs)? 3000 / (30 * 2) = 50. 50 Strength?! No, 25 Strength and Powerful Build

    Giant fantasy goat, big as a horse? Probably as strong as a horse. Ergo 25 Strength
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2022-08-11 at 08:52 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Mountain Goat Monster needs pizzazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Scalenex View Post
    I'm never sure what Strength score to give giant monsters. I believe in one of the White Wolf books Wooly Mammoths had a Strength of 8. I gave Death Goats a 7. I suppose i could give Death Goats a Strength score anywhere between 5 and 8. For a non-humanoid, their Strength trait doesn't have to be directly applicable to their natural attacks.
    If you want to be able to use the same stats for creatures that vary from human sized, to tiny, to huge, you really really need some kind of scale system.

    Even if just a "Size" stat.

    D&D basically just shrugs at the problem, but the strength of a creature the size of an elephant is basically on a different scale than a human.

    Either that, or some kind of DC-heros-esque exponential scale for stats.

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