OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug Lampert]

Just because there is an infinite amount of enemies does not mean that any of them will be where the Modrons are.

Admittedly, that's a very, very weak argument, but its an argument.

No, it's a very strong argument.

The infinite number of demons require infinite space, and have an infinite amount of space in D&D lore.

Nothing that I know of in D&D lore tells us what their density is in that infinite space. There could be one demon for every space the size of the observable universe in our world, and there'd still be an infinite number, and the modrons would typically never meet one on any reasonable finite journey, and if the number of modrons is finite and the length of their march is finite then they are only cutting across part of the abyss in their march.

If one per observable universe is too many for you, then reduce it to one per Googleplex observable universes, and the number of demons is still infinite.

How many demons the modrons meet is undetermined based on the available information, it is a number between 0 and a very large but finite value.

[Peelee]

No, it's a very strong argument.

The infinite number of demons require infinite space, and have an infinite amount of space in D&D lore.

Nothing that I know of in D&D lore tells us what their density is in that infinite space. There could be one demon for every space the size of the observable universe in our world, and there'd still be an infinite number, and the modrons would typically never meet one on any reasonable finite journey, and if the number of modrons is finite and the length of their march is finite then they are only cutting across part of the abyss in their march.

If one per observable universe is too many for you, then reduce it to one per Googleplex observable universes, and the number of demons is still infinite.

How many demons the modrons meet is undetermined based on the available information, it is a number between 0 and a very large but finite value.

Oh, I'm well aware of the math (since that was the basis for my argument, after all). It's just that thematically, it's unlikely. But the math definitely holds.

[Thermophille]

I always assumed that people saying planes were infinite meant "Its beyond our ability to measure in terms of scale", which is what people sometimes mean when they say something is infinite.

[Peelee]

I always assumed that people saying planes were infinite meant "Its beyond our ability to measure in terms of scale", which is what people sometimes mean when they say something is infinite.

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone saying "infinite" I'm that manner. "Incalculable", sure. But "infinite"?

Anyway, that comes from the sourcebooks. Infinite planes are infinite. Not finite and just really really really really really really big.

[Thermophille]

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone saying "infinite" I'm that manner. "Incalculable", sure. But "infinite"?

Anyway, that comes from the sourcebooks. Infinite planes are infinite. Not finite and just really really really really really really big.

It's one of those things like people using the word 'literally' for emphasis rather than for its actual meaning; I haven't seen infinity used that way often, and I can't think of any other concrete examples, but I'm sure I've heard it before.

[brian 333]

Well, the modrones that are destroyed on the march never get to merge into their home plane, as the progression of souls on Mt.Celestia was described. Outsiders slain on non-native planes are a net loss of energy to their home plane. Meanwhile, demons slain on their home planes do incorporate into their plane, so the demon princes have good cause to hurl wave after wave of demons at the invading modrones.

Anyway. I just don't get the whole Modron March thing. But then Logic is a tool of Law, not its master. When called upon to do so, logic will service Law in the same way that Probability services Drama.

[danielxcutter]

I assume the Modrons usually have proper plans so the entire March doesn’t get turned into scrap metal(and Modrons also get combat bonuses when in groups so that also helps). Also, the Lawful planes at least likely have agreements not to trouble them during their normally scheduled marches.

[Dame_Mechanus]

That's an excellent point. The actual number of demons is exactly one less than infinity.

Something's wrong with my calculator, when I told it "infinity minus one" it told me the result was still infinity.

[mjasghar]

The March is primarily along the roads which are a sort of physical link to the top layer of every plane
So they don’t encounter every fiend - and the fiends wouldn’t gang up on them precisely because the whole point of d&d fiends is they outnumber pretty much everyone else but are too busy fighting each other.
As for the timing - 284 years seems a short interval considering the March is along such massive distances. Then add in time to interpret the results.
As for the dead modrons I think the March is it’s own special magic so they end up returning to Mechanus for respawning - minus the few that go rogue.
Edit - found a discussion on this with sources

It's not clear whether modrons have a soul. They are constructs, machines. They are built, not born. However, in an earlier edition of the game, they are defined as living constructs, a type of construct which is sentient, can have free will, and can be raised or resurrected, suggesting they may have a soul. (Return of the Modrons, Dragon Magazine #354, p.35-49.)

There is some lore which suggests that their life energy could be trapped in that plane. In Return of the Modrons, p. 41, it states:

Ondrild, a now deceased wizard who studied modrons extensively, found through complex experimentation that destroyed modrons send their life energy back to the Energy Pool, and that each advancing modron subtly draws upon the pool to power its transformation.

Ondrild believed he was close to discovering how the energy transfers (even between planes) when he was found murdered and his laboratory destroyed. It was no surprise to Ondrild's students that the killers apparently destroyed the lab in a very thorough and orderly manner. None of them carried on his research in modrons after that.

[arimareiji]

No. Humans are great at abstract math but horrible at concrete numbers. Imagining even a thousand of something is nearly impossible for us, we're just the worst at big numbers.

There's some dependence on details. I can imagine a 10 x 10 x 10 array of simple objects fairly well.

I can imagine a square of 10 people by 10 people (with 9 more people stacked up, sitting on each of their heads) pretty well... but I could only make wild guesses if you asked me to estimate whether a non-arrayed crowd was 1000 or 10000.

Where I really trip myself up, though, is imagining dimensions of infinity.
There are infinite points in a line, right? It can't be any greater, because infinity +1 is meaningless.
But aren't there also infinite lines containing infinite points in a plane?
And infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in space?
And infinite spaces containing infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in time? (^_^)°

[brian 333]

I can imagine a square of 10 people by 10 people (with 9 more people stacked up, sitting on each of their heads) pretty well... but I could only make wild guesses if you asked me to estimate whether a non-arrayed crowd was 1000 or 10000.

Where I really trip myself up, though, is imagining dimensions of infinity.
There are infinite points in a line, right? It can't be any greater, because infinity +1 is meaningless.
But aren't there also infinite lines containing infinite points in a plane?
And infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in space?
And infinite spaces containing infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in time? (^_^)°

Add time to that and each discrete point is altered, becoming another entity, very much like, but older than its temporal predecessor, so that each infinite point in time contains an infinity of spaces with infinite planes with infinite lines with infinite points which themselves contain an infinity of discrete subdivisions. Ad infinitum.

I hope I am not alone in being awed and humbled by this. It is a great big universe and we're all really puny, yes, we're all real small, (about the size of Mickey Rooney...)

[ZhonLord]

I hope I am not alone in being awed and humbled by this. It is a great big universe and we're all really puny, yes, we're all real small, (about the size of Mickey Rooney...)

Quite the opposite of humble for me. To complete the song:

Though we don't know how we got here,
We're an important part here!
It's a Big, Universe,
And it's OURS!

[Peelee]

Something's wrong with my calculator, when I told it "infinity minus one" it told me the result was still infinity.

No no, you're doing it all wrong. If you have one more demon, then you'll have an infinite amount. As is, they're just shy of one to have infinity.

Frankly, it's a little embarrassing on their part which is why they don't talk about it much.

[danielxcutter]

The March is primarily along the roads which are a sort of physical link to the top layer of every plane
So they don’t encounter every fiend - and the fiends wouldn’t gang up on them precisely because the whole point of d&d fiends is they outnumber pretty much everyone else but are too busy fighting each other.
As for the timing - 284 years seems a short interval considering the March is along such massive distances. Then add in time to interpret the results.
As for the dead modrons I think the March is it’s own special magic so they end up returning to Mechanus for respawning - minus the few that go rogue.
Edit - found a discussion on this with sources

Well that's interesting.

Also, then uh... the implication is that the modrons killed him right? Yeesh.

[Fyraltari]

Well that's interesting.

Also, then uh... the implication is that the modrons killed him right? Yeesh.

Wrong universe but...

He doesn't even carry a cane! More the giant, bone-cleaving sword type of Prince.

Shouldn't expect embodiments of Order to be particularly nice.

[mjasghar]

Well that's interesting.

Also, then uh... the implication is that the modrons killed him right? Yeesh.

Lawful doesn’t mean nice and in a multiverse with epic spell casting knowing how they regenerate could lead to them being hijacked or made extinct.

[a_flemish_guy]

I don't get the whole, Modron March thing. They wouldn't make it all the way around before being completely wiped out.

Just as a mathematical exercise: there is a finite number of modrons. As soon as they hit The Abbyss, they would encounter an infinity of demons, all of whom violently oppose the very existence of Modrons. And it would happen again in Pandemonium, and again in Limbo. So, very large but finite number meets infinity x 3 enemies. How do they survive to tell their stories?

The plane of LN would be empty for a good while after such a march, and the modrons, being outsiders, would cease to exist without having incorporated into their plane.

Sorry, I didn't read the story, but this appears to be a case of the author not thinking through the idea, or me thinking too far into it.

there's indeed a finite number of modrons in existance at any time

but as soon as any modron dies a new monodrone spawns inmediatly in mechanus, if the modron was of higher rank then a modron of one rank lower will inmediatly be promoted and take over the duty of the dead modron with another modron of one rank lower promoting to fill the open space and so on and so on
this even applies to primus, as soon as he dies a secundus will take over as the new primus

[Peelee]

There's some dependence on details. I can imagine a 10 x 10 x 10 array of simple objects fairly well.

Ah, now you're just trying to cheat. I see this game.

You can imagine that because you can imagine 10 of a thing. Minor change to the parameters, exact same structure but now it's 1000 units on each axis, and suddenly the problem re-appears plain as day. Our feeble human brains can't grasp the concept of it. The number is just too big. And a million? Forget about it. We're so bad at conceptualizing big numbers we by and large are overwhelmed when we are first introduced to decent breakdowns about the true difference between a million and a billion.

[pearl jam]

I remember a thing on television that explained if you counted 1 number per second it would take 11 and a half or so days to count to a million and over 30 years to get to a billion.

[Peelee]

I remember a thing on television that explained if you counted 1 number per second it would take 11 and a half or so days to count to a million and over 30 years to get to a billion.

My preferred way of contextualizing it is a million seconds ago is roughly last Tuesday, while a billion seconds ago is the year 1990. Same concept but somehow more jarring. IMO, at least.

[Wintermoot]

there's indeed a finite number of modrons in existance at any time

but as soon as any modron dies a new monodrone spawns inmediatly in mechanus, if the modron was of higher rank then a modron of one rank lower will inmediatly be promoted and take over the duty of the dead modron with another modron of one rank lower promoting to fill the open space and so on and so on
this even applies to primus, as soon as he dies a secundus will take over as the new primus

Perhaps the real purpose of the Modron March is to clearcut the old driftwood and speed-spawn new blood as efficiently as possible... short of ordering a Mechanus-wid suicide day.

[a_flemish_guy]

Perhaps the real purpose of the Modron March is to clearcut the old driftwood and speed-spawn new blood as efficiently as possible... short of ordering a Mechanus-wid suicide day.

that's indeed one of the explanations I've heard over the years, another one is that mechanus might need to offload extra energy so the march is something of pressure release

in any case I like that nobody not even the nodroms know the purpose of the march

[halfeye]

... the true difference between a million and a billion.

Which billion? 10^9 or 10^12?

[a_flemish_guy]

Which billion? 10^9 or 10^12?

I knew americans used the short form but does the UK as well?

personally I've never seen milliard used anywhere but as explanation of the difference between long form and short form

[Fyraltari]

Which billion? 10^9 or 10^12?

Doesn't matter in this context.

I knew americans used the short form but does the UK as well?

personally I've never seen milliard used anywhere but as explanation of the difference between long form and short form

But... You're a flemish guy, don't YOU use the long form?

[Peelee]

Which billion? 10^9 or 10^12?

Doesn't really matter - either way, the difference is about a billion.

[a_flemish_guy]

Doesn't matter in this context.


But... You're a flemish guy, don't YOU use the long form?

yes, but I've been lucky with my education and as such I know we also have a billion, it's just that it's a million million rather then a thousand million
but seeing as how english media is a big thing I need to keep mind that our billion is not their billion but rather our milliard

the only thing I don't really know is who exactly is using the short form or the long form (the only rule of thumb I've come up with is that if it's in english it's probably the short form, I just wasn't really sure about the UK since halfeye asked about which billion is meant and he's from the UK)

edit: ah, I see where the disrepancy happened: personally I've never seen milliard used anywhere in english but as explanation of the difference between long form and short form

[halfeye]

the only thing I don't really know is who exactly is using the short form or the long form (the only rule of thumb I've come up with is that if it's in english it's probably the short form, I just wasn't really sure about the UK since halfeye asked about which billion is meant and he's from the UK)

I am from the UK but I'm old, I remember when a billion was 10^12 and 10^9 was "an American billion", now a billion is almost always 10^9. "long" and "short" forms aren't usually how English would describe the different billions.

I do like the way the SI affixes deal with this, the meanings of "kilo", "Mega", "Giga", "nano", etc. are so clear.

[a_flemish_guy]

I am from the UK but I'm old, I remember when a billion was 10^12 and 10^9 was "an American billion", now a billion is almost always 10^9. "long" and "short" forms aren't usually how English would describe the different billions.

I do like the way the SI affixes deal with this, the meanings of "kilo", "Mega", "Giga", "nano", etc. are so clear.

interesting, I did not know that

honestly I like the SI but I'm still pissed at mega (M) mili (m) and micro (µ) (I literally had to google that one, it doesn't even look like an m!)

[Doug Lampert]

I can imagine a square of 10 people by 10 people (with 9 more people stacked up, sitting on each of their heads) pretty well... but I could only make wild guesses if you asked me to estimate whether a non-arrayed crowd was 1000 or 10000.

Where I really trip myself up, though, is imagining dimensions of infinity.
There are infinite points in a line, right? It can't be any greater, because infinity +1 is meaningless.
But aren't there also infinite lines containing infinite points in a plane?
And infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in space?
And infinite spaces containing infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in time? (^_^)°

There are in fact different sizes of infinity, it's just that all the points in space is the same size infinity as all the numbers between zero and one.

But there's a proof that the number of real numbers is greater than the number of integers, and that the power set of any set is larger than the set.

So you can construct an infinite number of different infinities, start with set of all integers, take the power set of that set and you have a larger infinite set (the set of all subsets of the integers, this is the same size as the set of reals), then take the power set of that set and you have a larger infinite set (which is the size of the set of all functions of the reals), you can keep going, and you've left my ability to provide decent examples behind.

There's probably an irregular webcomic annotation out there somewhere that explains this better.