OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread

[Psyche]

Always happy to lore dump.

Demogorgon is arguably one of the most powerful non deity demon princes. It's a balancing act with him, Graz'zt and Orcus usually. Though arguments can be made for Pale Night or some other things to be stronger.

As for where the others I mentioned ruled. Keep in mind I'm speaking 3.X. Many of these beings have not shown in 5e because new things have been added (Like the feywild and shadowfell).

Asmodeus is lord of Baator or The Nine Hells

Zaphkiel is the highest of the Celestial Hemodab which is the Archon rulers of Celestia

Talisid is the leader of the Companions. The Guardinal lords of Elysium. He's basically Aslan from Narnia.

Morwel is the Queen of Stars from when the Eladrin were Chaotic Good Exemplars (Think CG angels vs the ARchons being LG angels or the Devils and Demons being Lawful and Chaotic Evil).

To my knowledge none of these are officially in 5e. But OotS runs on 3.X so...

And when I say on Par I mean, it depends. Orcus managed to kill a Primus, but I'm pretty sure any god that tried to tangle with Asmodeus would die. And what Asmodeus is as LE, the Primus is as LN I'd say Primus are by default a LITTLE bit weaker because they're meant to die and be replaced. But how much a "Little bit" is is who knows when we're talking gods.

Suffice to say Thor or Zeus would be very polite to Primus on Mechanus, probably treat them as an Equal most anywhere else, and MAYBE be superior in their home domain. Back to the comic, the summoned creature is I believe 5 or 6 levels below Primus.



For me? Yes. For official games, I'm not sure since that stuff was added later. I don't see why they wouldn't be (The elemental lords) Strahd is absolutely weaker, not familiar with Ogremech. Tasha the mortal mage is weaker, Zybilna the Archfey? Not sure.



Running down the list, Mordenkainen is weaker in 3.x, not sure in 5e. None of the Demon Princes would stand up well to Asmodeus, but that's a matter of nature. Some of them might have more raw power, but Asmodeus has the experience, cunning, intelligence and, quite frankly, Batman esq nature that puts him ahead of other evil things. As for the Feywild and Shadowfel and such. The Darklords of Ravenloft are not on par with gods, they're just essentially unkillable. Suffice to say in canon whatever it is that rules Ravenloft was able to capture and hold Vecna up until the point Vecna was a Greater God.

For the domains of the Outer Planes. Celestia is the Archons, Solars are angels made to serve gods specifically in 3.X lore. Bytopia has none, Elysium is Talisid and the Guardinals, Beastlands has none, Aborea is where the Eladrin are, Ysgard has none. Limbo has Slaad. etc, etc.

So yeah, um one question: What about carceri? Ogremech is elemental evil's earth guy. And finally, raven queen is shadowfell god, right?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...2#post25547852

[hamishspence]

Carceri's primary fiendish residents are called Demodands (and are statted in 3.0-3.5 in Fiend Folio).

The Shadowfell is a 4e-ism - in 3e, the nearest equivalent is the Plane of Shadow. The Raven Queen was also invented for 4e.

[Laurentio III]

My first thought was "Well, I guess this was *puts on glasses* Inevitable..."
But any high ranking Inevitable is unlikely to sign up with Xykon on the team.

An Inevitable could find that Xykon is violating a law of nature and act against him.
Unlikely, for many reasons, but possible.

"Maruts confront those who would try to deny the grave itself.

Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way might be labeled transgressors as well. Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale."


Plus, the whole "messing with reality" thing.

[Eric the White]

Nothing to see here. I didnt get completely ninja'd, nope!

[Laurentio III]

Nothing to see here. I didnt get completely ninja'd, nope!

A ninjaed pirate. How fitting.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

So yeah, um one question: What about carceri? Ogremech is elemental evil's earth guy. And finally, raven queen is shadowfell god, right?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...2#post25547852

Hamisphere answered well.

To put a step further, there's not clear leadership for Yugoloths or Demodands. In general there's back and forth lore about the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth, but it's not as well documents as the Lords of the 9 or the Demon Princes are.

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm going to bet that the new guys is a Pendeon, which is a class E Mordon. Which have a pair of fans on their backs that resemble wings and a monocle to denote rank.

In a case of wanting too much, I think it would've been really cool if the E.S.L.A. fit into some kind of lyrical meter.

[hamishspence]

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.

There's a few very powerful slaadi who are namedropped, and occasionally statted - Ygorl, Ssendam.

[Reboot]

Right, but even "particularly verbose" uses up a few rounds per your own link. Not "weeks." :p

Even V couldn't outverbose an EULA at their most verbose!

If you're just looking for a big army, there's no specific reason to use a Lawful summoning instead of an Evil one.

I was going to reply, but Crusher beat me to it:

Partially agree. If he just wanted muscle, he'd probably get devils like vs the Resistance. Here, he wants the info-gathering and collation the Quinton can give him PLUS he gets an army of Modrons that's going to be individually underwhelming but phenomenally well organized and virtually endless. He could probably send a squad of low level Modrons through every single door simultaneously, know exactly which doors are clear and have a detailed map of the initial part of the entire complex in like 5 minutes. I mean, 5 minutes after the chanting is done, however long that takes.

The point being, the Modrons give him flexible, coordinated muscle plus info gathering.

[brionl]

Sneak preview of Modrons in the next A Monster for Every Season?

If it's a Quinton (or a legally distinct non-copyrighted facsimile thereof) the Dimension Door and Teleport w/o Error at will might come in handy.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think it's actually a quarton.

Quartons have four arms and two large fan-like wings on their back. Plus, they wear something akin to a helmet.

[multilis]

"I was hoping for a bigger reaction to drawing" - 1263, and then a "close call" on "track me with a low level spell"... Redcloak is worrying that Xykon is deeply suspicious of him and ready to turn.

Then Redcloak gets some help from "order" rather than "evil".

To me seems like Redcloak is doing the "bigger reaction to drawing". Based on talk of 2 villages, he is thinking about shifting allegiances if required to be easier allied with a lawful dwarf if that is better for goblins than "right all along" village.

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.

[Mad Humanist]

It is baseball related. Usually, if you have the lead, you bring in your best relief pitcher in the 9th(last) inning in order close out the game. But sometimes you will bring them in earlier in the game in order to protect the lead if you feel you are going to lose the lead thereby giving you a better chance at winning even if you don't have your closer in at the end.

My thanks for the explanation. I don't think I would have got the reference without someone explaining it.

As it happens I track references to games in the comic and it has been a while since we had one.

[mjasghar]

Hamisphere answered well.

To put a step further, there's not clear leadership for Yugoloths or Demodands. In general there's back and forth lore about the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth, but it's not as well documents as the Lords of the 9 or the Demon Princes are.

Similar to how I don't believe there's a known leader of the Slaadi.

The Slaadi background is 4-5 top Slaadi who are god level and created the Spawning stone as a way to make sure no one gets as powerful as them. The Stone is actually a dimensional prison inside iirc full of extreme mutations

[InvisibleBison]

Amusingly, the video opens with a "Spoilers" warning. I mean, it came out in 1981. Surely at some point this stops being an issue.

I don't see why spoilers would stop being an issue over time. New people are born every day, and none of them have seen any media.

He should still be 17th Level, so I think he has 1 + 1 9th level spell slots. With him casting implosion already and now gate, he's tapped out there.

Why do you think Redcloak should still be 17th level? Team Evil has been fighting monsters powerful enough to give Xykon XP, so Redcloak is definitely also earning some. It seems perfectly plausible to me that he'd have leveled up during his sojourn at Monster Hollow.

[brian 333]

"I was hoping for a bigger reaction to drawing" - 1263, and then a "close call" on "track me with a low level spell"... Redcloak is worrying that Xykon is deeply suspicious of him and ready to turn.

Then Redcloak gets some help from "order" rather than "evil".

To me seems like Redcloak is doing the "bigger reaction to drawing". Based on talk of 2 villages, he is thinking about shifting allegiances if required to be easier allied with a lawful dwarf if that is better for goblins than "right all along" village.

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.

Xykon has known Redcloak intends to betray him all along. He has never trusted Redcloak, and has plans in place to deal with the inevitable betrayal. Why should Xykon get excited about 1263 when there have been other obvious clues he failed to get excited about?

What new information is in 1263 that Xykon would not have had reason to suspect before?

[TheNecrocomicon]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Who hides behind a Plan (secret secret, he's got a secret)
So no one else can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true duplicity

Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)
Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)

Thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For casting all the spells nobody wants to
And thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For helping the plot along to where it needed to
Thank you, thank you, thank you
I want to thank you, please, thank you, ohhhhh yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

The problem's plain to see
Call more technology
Gate spells to save our lives
Machines to liches' eyes

The time has come at last (secret secret, he's got a secret)
To throw away this mask (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Now everyone can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true identity
He's--
"Kill Roy, kill Roy,
kill Roy, kill Roy" ...

[Peelee]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)

Oh, hello there, one-of-the-greatest-bands-that-ever-existed.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Oh, hello there, one-of-the-greatest-bands-that-ever-existed.

And I have to say, them getting Lawrence Gowan as their frontman was a genius move of the highest order.

[Peelee]

And I have to say, them getting Lawrence Gowan as their frontman was a genius move of the highest order.

I don't think I've heard anything of theirs from the new millennium. That needs to change.

[Ruck]

He is the Modron Man (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Who hides behind a Plan (secret secret, he's got a secret)
So no one else can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true duplicity

Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)
Domo arigato, Mr. Redcloako, domo (domo), domo (domo)

Thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For casting all the spells nobody wants to
And thank you very much, oh Mr. Redcloako
For helping the plot along to where it needed to
Thank you, thank you, thank you
I want to thank you, please, thank you, ohhhhh yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

The problem's plain to see
Call more technology
Gate spells to save our lives
Machines to liches' eyes

The time has come at last (secret secret, he's got a secret)
To throw away this mask (secret secret, he's got a secret)
Now everyone can see (secret secret, he's got a secret)
His true identity
He's--
"Kill Roy, kill Roy,
kill Roy, kill Roy" ...

Modron love (flies beside me)
Modron love (flies on by)
Modron love (gets me to the Gate on time...)

[bunsen_h]

Also, that story reminds me of high school. Freshman year, there was this girl, Crystal. Born on Halloween. The teacher was ragging on her about it a little (super small class sizes, teachers and students had a lot closer relationship than big schools). Talk later shifted to other notable "monster" days, and Crystal exclaims "I hope my birthday never falls on Friday the 13th!"

She was unaware why everyone laughed.

No chance she was accustomed to working in multiple number bases? Cue the old joke about

Spoiler: Why programmers can't tell the difference between Hallowe'en and Christmas

Show

Because OCT 31 = DEC 25 (as 'OCT' is sometimes used to indicate octal, i.e. base-8 math, and 'DEC' decimal, base-10 math; 31₈ = 25₁₀).

A few years ago I was at a gathering in which a guy was celebrating his 63^rd birthday, but the cake decorator messed up the order and wrote a 36 instead. I pointed out that it worked in base 19.

In a case of wanting too much, I think it would've been really cool if the E.S.L.A. fit into some kind of lyrical meter.

I thought at first that it could be hammered into "A Policeman's Lot Is Not a Happy One", but it doesn't really.

[Krakius]

Show: Has a character sign a contract without reading it. This inevitably backfires.

Me, as a kid: Pfft. I would never be stupid enough to do that.

Me, now: Scroll, scroll, scroll . . .

[Earwig]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before...


Edited for typo

[Coppercloud]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that that's what is happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before...

There are usually several ways to state a given fact. He could probably just have talked about an XP cost, but chose not to (this applies to both the Giant and Redcloak). It doesn't strike me at particularly odd, and even then, people use odd turns of phrase basically all the time. And maybe it is a sensitive topic for Redcloak, who believes his people were created as mere XP sources for the PC races.

[Reboot]

We could end up with Redcloak allied with OOTS (not destroy the gates), while Xykon allies with IFCC (destroy the gates), whatever IFCC has got planned could be based on getting Xykon to help with THEIR plan once he discovers Redcloaks betrayal.

Why would Xykon want to destroy the world? Some of his best evilness took place there! Even ROY doesn't think Xykon wants to destroy the world. His biggest motivation is to avoid the Great Fire below. Y'know, where the IFCC is from.

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before...

Direct references like that have waned over time. When V got level-drained by the vampires, they described it as "reduced life energy" rather than "two negative levels", for instance. (And, yes, Roy refers to level drain in the same strip, but "waned", not "gone")

[pearl jam]

Enough people seem to be bothered by this wording that I wonder if it won't come up in the next batch of Patreon questions or be addressed in the book commentary.

[Coppercloud]

Enough people seem to be bothered by this wording that I wonder if it won't come up in the next batch of Patreon questions or be addressed in the book commentary.

Either that, or Xykon will tell him "Suck it up, this was just a bit of experience. Less drama, more killing good guys."

[dancrilis]

Longish-time reader of both comic and these discussion threads, finally registered to say - if the "draining a bit of his soul" RC states as a cost (just) refers to the XP cost of casting Gate, why wouldn't he state outright that this is what's happening? We've had plenty of mentions of XP in-comic before...

Because saying it would cost him a wee bit o' xp would perhaps minimise his sacrifice where saying it cost a bit of his soul highlights how much he is suffering for the cause.

[masamune1]

I remember a thread asking if Redcloak was a cleric of War but does this mean he's a cleric of Law, and not just a Lawful Cleric?

Also, seems like Redcloak could probably ask these guys if anything Durkon said about the gods destroying and remaking the world is true or not- not sure if they would actually KNOW, but it's worth a shot.