OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread

[Larsaan]

I remember a thread asking if Redcloak was a cleric of War but does this mean he's a cleric of Law, and not just a Lawful Cleric?

Also, seems like Redcloak could probably ask these guys if anything Durkon said about the gods destroying and remaking the world is true or not- not sure if they would actually KNOW, but it's worth a shot.

Third edition clerics picked two domains, usually from a list specific to their deity, and the deity's alignment(s) was almost always among those options. Redcloak could have picked Law and Destruction as his domains, the latter being what gives him access to Disintegrate.

That said, Gate is a regular 9th level spells for clerics anyway, no domain needed.

[danielxcutter]

Also pretty sure he's a Lawful Evil cleric who worships a Lawful Evil god, so it works either way.

[dancrilis]

Also pretty sure he's a Lawful Evil cleric who worships a Lawful Evil god, so it works either way.

I would be much less sure of the Dark One's alignment - and we know that Neutral deities can grant the Law domain.

[hamishspence]

Third edition clerics picked two domains, usually from a list specific to their deity, and the deity's alignment(s) was almost always among those options. Redcloak could have picked Law and Destruction as his domains, the latter being what gives him access to Disintegrate.

That said, Gate is a regular 9th level spells for clerics anyway, no domain needed.

Redcloak uses Unholy Blight. which is an "Evil Domain only" spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html


There's a way of swapping out a domain temporarily though - the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. It's also possible that the Cloak might do something similar.

The main hint that he has access to the Law domain, previously, was in the Start of Darkness book - him casting Hold Monster in that, which clerics need the Law domain to access.

[danielxcutter]

There's also items like domain staffs, I think those let you burn normal slots to cast domain spells limited times per day. Considering that the Cloak actually... doesn't seem to have that impressive abilities for an artifact of that much importance, it probably does something beyond being "plot device" even if that hasn't or even won't ever come up in the actual comic.

[masamune1]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

[dancrilis]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

I am personally dubious if he has the Law domain - he did cast Hold Monster in SOD which which is an indication that he does have it but he was surprised that another cleric was able to cast it which implies to me that his own usage was not from a domain.

I think it is more likely he is a Lawful Evil cleric with the domains Destuction (for Disintegrate) and Evil (for Unholy Blight).

[hamishspence]

So...he's a Lawful Evil cleric whose domains are actually "Law" and "Evil", then?

And Destruction. We don't know which two domains he picked at 1st level, though, or when and how got access to the third.

I figure he picked Law and Destruction first, and later found a way of using the Evil domain as well. Since his use of the Evil domain spell took place a lot later than his usages of the Law and Destruction domains.

[danielxcutter]

Hadn't Rich already started using non-core spells by that point? Could be taking inspiration from that if not outright using them.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak uses Unholy Blight. which is an "Evil Domain only" spell:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html


There's a way of swapping out a domain temporarily though - the Substitute Domain spell from Complete Champion. It's also possible that the Cloak might do something similar.

The main hint that he has access to the Law domain, previously, was in the Start of Darkness book - him casting Hold Monster in that, which clerics need the Law domain to access.

Elan's comment about thinking prestige classes were for clerics could come in; a few of them grant an additional domain. It's more likely than Redcloak hitting epic and choosing Bonus Domain as an epic feat, anyway.

(As an aside, I still don't know what to think about the Arcane Disciple feat; why is it so much easier for an arcane spellcaster to add domain spells to their class list?)

[danielxcutter]

Elan's comment about thinking prestige classes were for clerics could come in; a few of them grant an additional domain. It's more likely than Redcloak hitting epic and choosing Bonus Domain as an epic feat, anyway.

(As an aside, I still don't know what to think about the Arcane Disciple feat; why is it so much easier for an arcane spellcaster to add domain spells to their class list?)

The entire point of Arcane Disciple is letting arcane spellcasters access domain spells at all I guess. Also if you ask me the feat suuuuuuucks.

[Jasdoif]

The entire point of Arcane Disciple is letting arcane spellcasters access domain spells at all I guess. Also if you ask me the feat suuuuuuucks.

It involves more deliberation than a lot of feat choices, but it has potential; getting up to nine spells added onto your spell list can be pretty handy (compare with Extra Spell's one that's already on your class spell list). A focused spell list like a beguiler's or warmage's can get a lot of flexibility outside of the usual niche, and if the Spell domain is available you can conceivably get tons of arcane effects through (greater) anyspell. If nothing else, you can use spell completion/trigger items for them, which aren't subject to the limitations imposed on casting the spells yourself; and doesn't even require you to be able to cast spells of their level.

[Ariko]

But Redcloak said he never cast that spell before. Has the Giant made an error?

Possibly he refers to the calling function of Gate as a functionally separate spell from the planar travel function? Given that only the former has an xp cost, it could be that.

[Alex Warlorn]

Oh this is great! nobody reads the user license agreement. Poor Redcloak.

So what is that thing? The Lawful equivalent of a Deva/Fiend? And it takes a part of your soul to summon that? That sounds more like a Fiendish thing. Then again, I suppose bureaucracy is soul-crushing.

That is a Modron, a Quinton if I'm not mistaken from the five arms. There are only 25 of them in existence at a time. The forth highest ranking of the Modrons. The bureau chiefs and archivists of the plane of order and logic.

The little guys are called Monodrone, the lowest of the low of the Modron, (there are 300+ million of them in existence) only able to do one job at a time and no more. They think they and the Duodrones are the only Modrons in existence and can only grasp the higher ranks as exceptionally powerful Duodrones.

Modrons, even Primus himself, the One and the Prime, speak with "us" and "we" because when one speaks, they speak for their entire kind.

When a Modron dies, it respawns at Primus' energy pool as a Monodrone. And a Modron of the lower rank will be promoted to fill the void left in the higher rank, and all the way down to the lowest rank getting a promotion.

Can someone explain to me the joke the roach makes in the third panel? I'm guessing it's base-ball related?

Well there are nine Innings in a baseball game, so I guess somethings you're forced to bring in your best back-up player before the finale.

[Alex Warlorn]

The main guy is way up in the hierarchy. It's one of their leading entities, who aexist in finite numbers. I may be wrong, the big guy may be a Secundus, one of the four seconds-in-command of the whole modron society, effectively rulers of huge sections of Mechanus, subordinate only to Primus himself.

Pretty sure he's a Quinton, check out the five arms.

[Edhelras]

I thought you COULDN'T go down a level. If it would drop you a level to pay an XP cost you just couldn't cast it. IIRC you were allowed to delay leveling up if thought you were going to cast a big XP spell for exactly that reason.

You CAN go down a level: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html ¨

But it can cause great intra-party tension...

[LookieLouE1707]

Unsure as to rules about XP loss, I never had to DM that situation.

A little more about baseball pitchers:

Normally you have a starting pitcher, who you want to go as long as possible. A "complete game" is when no relief pitchers are used. These are now somewhat rare. Because pitching at the major league level is so fatiguing, a team will have 4 or 5 starters, and a starting pitcher only starts every few games. If the starter doesn't go at least 5 innings before being replaced (pulled), they cannot receive credit as the winning pitcher, even if their team wins.

Then you have middle relievers. These are the guys you bring in if you have to replace your starter in the middle innings. They can go 2 or 3 innings, usually, and can pitch every few days.

And then there's the closer. This is the best reliever on the team, and sometimes the best pitcher. This is the guy you bring in for one inning if your team has a small lead, and he usually has the ability to shut down the other team with a near-unhittable pitch or two (e.g., a 100 MPH fastball, or a wicked curve).

If you bring in the closer to do anything other than protect a small lead in the last inning, it's a sign that the situation is desperate.

the opposite, actually. you don't bring your closer in when the situation is desperate; you bring him in when you are on the cusp of victory. you use your closer in high-leverage situations, which come when you are winning, not when you are losing.

suppose you trail by 1 run (or many) in the ninth inning: you don't bother wasting your closer, you save him for tomorrow, because even if you guarantee your opposition a scoreless inning that has little effect on your odds of winning. on the other hand, if you lead by 1 run in the ninth, then shutting your opponent out for an inning guarantees victory. that's when you use your closer.

generally closers are held until the ninth inning because if used earlier they may be wasted in a game where their contribution turned out to be irrelevant. suppose you use your closer in the seventh inning with a 1-run lead, and then your offense scores ten runs in the eighth. your closer's scoreless inning in the seventh turned out not to matter. if you use him in the ninth with a 1-run lead, though, then his contribution is certain to matter.

so when do you use your closer in the seventh inning? suppose you lead by four in the seventh inning and the opponent loads the bases. you are not in dire straights: you are still overwhelmingly favored to win the game! but your closer will probably be irrelevant in the ninth inning - probably you will still hold a comfortable lead then. but if you use your closer now, and guarantee you take a 4-run lead (at least) to the eighth inning, then your victory is all but guaranteed. it is unlikely your opponent will have a chance like this again.

[Ruck]

Aside, while I'm not a Yankees fan, it is funny to me how much of their late-90s and early-00s playoff success was due to Joe Torre recognizing that sometimes he should bring Mariano Rivera in high-leverage situations even if it wasn't the ninth inning yet, which at the time was completely bucking a very stubborn conventional wisdom.

(Also, good and thorough explanation, LookieLou.)

[Peelee]

Aside, while I'm not a Yankees fan

My dad went to his grave still saddled with the absolute betrayal of the Dodgers moving to LA.

[brian 333]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

[ff7hero]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

Oh my goodness, thank you! This is the piece of the puzzle I was still scratching my head over.

[hroþila]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

[danielxcutter]

I went to a baseball stadium with my cousins some years back. Wasn't really fun. Though I was never a sports fan in general.

[pearl jam]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

Rules is stating it a bit too strongly, I think. Although there are actual rules regarding player substitution in a given game, the "rules" that govern how often pitchers pitch are conventions that represent accepted standard practice but have changed over time as the accepted wisdom on the subject has changed. It's certainly true that, to a very large degree, they are adhered to as if they were rules, but breaking from those practices is not actually against the rules of the game.

[SlashDash]

I am personally dubious if he has the Law domain - he did cast Hold Monster in SOD which which is an indication that he does have it but he was surprised that another cleric was able to cast it which implies to me that his own usage was not from a domain.

I think it is more likely he is a Lawful Evil cleric with the domains Destuction (for Disintegrate) and Evil (for Unholy Blight).

I don't think he has Law domain.
Note this strip
Redcloak wonders how he got the "Hold Monster" spell, and the other guy says "Law Domain"

You'd think Redcloak would know that if it's his domain.

[hamishspence]

I think the way the Modron addresses him as "cleric of Law" might support the notion that it means more than just "cleric who happens to be Lawful-alignment".

[ff7hero]

I don't think he has Law domain.
Note this strip
Redcloak wonders how he got the "Hold Monster" spell, and the other guy says "Law Domain"

You'd think Redcloak would know that if it's his domain.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

[The MunchKING]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

It may be that he didn't know the 12 Gods gave out moral domains, especially if he's got enough Knowledge: Religion to know the Giant's stance that they are basically all True Neutral anyway.

[Ruck]

I suppose it should be mentioned by our non-baseball-savvy friends; at the pro level there are elaborate rules about how often a pitcher may play, and changing out pitchers is a strategy involving multiple games. Bringing a relief pitcher in too early may make him ineligible in the next game.

I don't think there's any rule against a pitcher playing consecutive games. The bigger issue is just that pitching is very tiring; it's not very often a relief pitcher is ready to go in consecutive games, especially if he pitches more than one inning. And most teams have a rotation of five starters to give them enough time to rest and recover.

What is true is that a player who leaves a game can't come back in. So if you bring your closer in early and he pitches as long as he can, but you fail to close out the game, you could be in trouble in the final innings.

My dad went to his grave still saddled with the absolute betrayal of the Dodgers moving to LA.

My grandma was from Brooklyn and my dad has similar stories (this is also why he's still a Dodgers fan).

[JonahFalcon]

Why did I think Monodrones were the square guys and Duodrones were the flying round guys?

I'm losing my memory.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The Class and Level Geekery Thread pointed out that Redcloak casts Hold Monster during SoD. Which is weird to ne but there it is.

Also, Redcloak comments, "Nice". He's saying this to a human of Azure City (someone he would despise), which indicates his opinion of the priest went a little up.