A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    We view xp loss and gain simply as a game mechanic, void of any moral implication. The word "soul", on the other hand, comes with lots of culturally influenced baggage attached about what it means to "sell your soul", or "lose your soul" in whole or in part and what the consequences may be. We don't routinely apply any of that context when we consider the topic of xp, so I can see where some of this confusion is coming from even as I am of the opinion that the explanation that this phrasing is simply an alternative description of the xp cost is the most likely one.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo360 View Post
    I just have to wonder what people think XP is, diegetically, if it isnít a piece of your soul.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Memory.890
    Interesting question: Is our soul an essence independent of our experiences, is it shaped by our experiences, or is it the sum of our experiences? (Or somewhere in between these?)
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Interesting question: Is our soul an essence independent of our experiences, is it shaped by our experiences, or is it the sum of our experiences? (Or somewhere in between these?)
    Let me answer your question with another question: how many legs do dragons have? Four? Two? Zero?

    Furthermore, are they wise river-spirits or fiery embodiment of destruction? Do they kidnap princesses? Are they dwarves metamorphosed by their greed? Does sowing their teeth result in growing an army of giants?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo360 View Post
    I just have to wonder what people think XP is, diegetically, if it isnít a piece of your soul.
    Experience? I mean, that is what EXP stands for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    People being loudly confused by simple concepts isn't evidence of anything but human nature.
    Is being snarky and condescending to anybody with a differing interpretation a requirement for being on this forum, or is it something that happens gradually the longer you stay here?
    Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2022-08-16 at 04:07 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    XP and Levels being related to souls and strength of soul has been a thing for a while, hasn't it? Pretty sure it came up during Thor's explanation to Durkon?
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    There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatopeelerkin View Post
    Is being snarky and condescending to anybody with a differing interpretation a requirement for being on this forum, or is it something that happens gradually the longer you stay here?
    From what I've seen, sadly, that too seems to be a large part of humans' nature.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatopeelerkin View Post
    EIs being snarky and condescending to anybody with a differing interpretation a requirement for being on this forum, or is it something that happens gradually the longer you stay here?
    littlegirlshrugsandsayswhynotboth.jpeg

    More seriously, for good and ill forums are like any other collection of humans... some people view civil discussion as something everyone wins, some people have to "win" otherwise they lose, some people are happiest "putting others in their place", some people are happiest building others up.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Memory.890
    If XP was memory, spending XP would result in forgetting things, wouldn't it?

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    If XP was memory, spending XP would result in forgetting things, wouldn't it?
    Or normal forgetting things would result in XP loss, which is a significantly more interesting/horrifying concept.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Or normal forgetting things would result in XP loss, which is a significantly more interesting/horrifying concept.
    Ohhhhhhh... so that's why I keep losing levels and HP the older I get?
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    If XP was memory, spending XP would result in forgetting things, wouldn't it?
    Yes, you'd forget the experiences those points represent.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo360 View Post
    I just have to wonder what people think XP is, diegetically, if it isnít a piece of your soul.
    Bone density, perhaps.
    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Ohhhhhhh... so that's why I keep losing levels and HP the older I get?
    You are in good company, compadre.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes, you'd forget the experiences those points represent.
    So how do feats that improve memory affect XP gain/loss?
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So how do feats that improve memory affect XP gain/loss?
    Just because you're better at remembering doesn't mean you're better at learning.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Just because you're better at remembering doesn't mean you're better at learning.
    You're not forgetting as much, though, which should hamper XP loss, by your own argument. Which is a remarkably powerful mechanic.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You're not forgetting as much, though, which should hamper XP loss, by your own argument. Which is a remarkably powerful mechanic.
    You'll have to explain to me what those feats do, exactly.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2022-08-16 at 10:30 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You'll have to explain to me what those feats do, exactly.
    I'm mostly busting your chops. Usually when D&D trots out "memory" it's entirely in terms of fluff to explain and so you gain this mechanical benefit."
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    You are in good company, compadre.
    20 years ago: "I'm so awesome, I can still take half a flight of stairs at a time by leaning forward, grabbing the railings, and swinging like it's a jungle gym!" (maybe a slightly sore ankle)

    Today: "Holy crap, jogging a block without stretching out to get somewhere in time was a bad idea." (knee sore and won't extend fully for a few days)

    (^_~)
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm mostly busting your chops. Usually when D&D trots out "memory" it's entirely in terms of fluff to explain and so you gain this mechanical benefit."
    I mean, even then, unless those feats explictly ward against magic effects, that would still work.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
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    So where do I sign up? "Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all"
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    How about quantum states of existence which enable access to more Hit Point pools? At 1000 exp the character gains another concentric circle of power with all its commensurate bonuses, including another pool of HP. You don't get HP or the other bonuses on a graduated scale, you have to break the barrier.

    Sort of like how water must achieve 0 degrees to not be ice, then achieve 100 degrees to not be water, the intermediate temperature ranges just don't matter.

    As the character breaks each exp threshold the pool of benefits is added, (or subtracted,) from the total. Thus, memory is not affected simply by gaining or losing exp.

    So, for the gamer out there, what is the mechanical quantification of a character's soul? If it can indeed be a commodity for Faustian bargains, it must have a game mechanic that controls its use in game. One cannot simply state, "My character's karma prevents that spell effect from functioning." If karma can interfere with spells, it must be quantified in some way, with rules that affect its usage.

    I submit that EXP is an excellent method of quantifying a game character's soul, and the various rules controlling its use already incorporate every mechanical facet of a game character soul without need to create another game mechanic.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    A while ago, I would have been confused by, or possibly just outright disagreed with, the idea that XP cost represents losing a piece of your soul. But in #1232 Thor and Durkon's conversation explicitly links the idea of character levels to the quality of a soul. If levels measure the quality of a soul, it seems like an easy logical step to make that XP cost means you lose a bit of soul. Considering that the conversation was only 32 pages ago (very short time if you were reading it through like a comic book) this feels like a deliberate and direct reference to the idea which was just established.
    Last edited by Patterned_Pike; 2022-08-16 at 10:03 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    So where do I sign up? "Grim specter of noogie hangs like shroud over us all"
    I hadn't really thought it through... any ideas for how to register new members? (^_^)į

    Quote Originally Posted by Patterned_Pike View Post
    A while ago, I would have been confused by, or possibly just outright disagreed with, the idea that XP cost represents losing a piece of your soul. But in #1232 Thor and Durkon's conversation explicitly links the idea of character levels to the quality of a soul. If levels measure the quality of a soul, it seems like an easy logical step to make that XP cost means you lose a bit of soul. Considering that the conversation was only 32 pages ago (very short time if you were reading it through like a comic book) this feels like a deliberate and direct reference to the idea which was just established.
    Random silly thought: If levels measure the quality of the soul rather than size... would that make the soul a piece of fruit, ripened by memories and experiences? (Dibs on being a Decaisnea fargesii, just because I'm a huge weirdo.)
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Gate includes Lesser Planar Ally. He obviously chose a Quinton. The "payment" can be 100-1000gp per level, a barter, or... nothing, if the Ally chooses.
    Last edited by JonahFalcon; 2022-08-17 at 11:26 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    So, question for the "this is a strange concept/it means something other than the XP cost" people.

    Suppose you're writing a piece of fiction. And, for whatever reason, you do not want to have that particular character, in that particular scene, break the fourth wall and say "it costs some of my XP."

    How do you communicate why casting Gate is draining in a way that, say, casting Implosion is not?

    (Having your readers spend the next chapter going "So what did you forget when you got your memories drained away?" is also something you would probably prefer to avoid, in this hypothetical.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2022-08-17 at 01:04 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Eh, it was to set up the demon roach gag.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    So, question for the "this is a strange concept/it means something other than the XP cost" people.

    Suppose you're writing a piece of fiction. And, for whatever reason, you do not want to have that particular character, in that particular scene, break the fourth wall and say "it costs some of my XP."

    How do you communicate why casting Gate is draining in a way that, say, casting Implosion is not?

    (Having your readers spend the next chapter going "So what did you forget when you got your memories drained away?" is also something you would probably prefer to avoid, in this hypothetical.)
    This hypothetical doesn't seem to apply very well to this situation, given that the comic has already referred to both EXP costs and the concept of spending your soul for power- the concepts have already both been defined in the universe, and are clearly different things. It's not like it'd be the first time EXP is introduced to the universe.

    But for the sake of argument, I'd probably just put something along the lines of 'it saps my strength', or maybe if you view EXP as more cerebral than physical, 'it dulls my mental acuity' or something.
    Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2022-08-18 at 03:50 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatopeelerkin View Post
    This hypothetical doesn't seem to apply very well to this situation, given that the comic has already referred to both EXP costs
    I made a point of "that particular character" and you're still handwaving that Redcloak has no possible reason to speak differently than Durkon.
    and the concept of spending your soul for power
    I think the words "drains a little bit" as distinct from "each one of us will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under their Soul Splice" matter more than you apparently think they do.

    the concepts have already both been defined in the universe, and are clearly different things. It's not like it'd be the first time EXP is introduced to the universe.

    But for the sake of argument, I'd probably just put something along the lines of 'it saps my strength', or maybe if you view EXP as more cerebral than physical, 'it dulls my mental acuity' or something.
    Then we'd have threads going, "Gate does Strength damage to the caster?" or "Gate does Intelligence damage to the caster?"--with a lot more valid grounding than this thread, in my opinion. What would your answer be if you view "EXP" as more spiritual than cerebral or physical? ("Cerebral" clearly doesn't work for Thog's levels, and "physical" doesn't work for Vaarsuvius's. And I hope the answer doesn't come out sounding like Wisdom damage.)
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

    I'm going to chime in and just say it's the Giant updating (or rather downplaying) how he describes things to be less D&D like.

    It's simple, answers the question, and it's the kind of thing he's already admitted he'd do to make things more accessible becuase most people who read the story actually aren't hardcore D&D fans.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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