Junkyard Wars XL - Ninths + Meta - Prepared

[Gruftzwerg]

This means you could to judge, couldn't you?

not really. I'm still very busy and short on forum/d&d time atm...

[loky1109]

Thrice Dead Cat, where are you?

[loky1109]

Judge? Anybody?

[loky1109]

*sad*
We still don't have a judge.

[Thurbane]

I'll be honest, I'm feeling a little burnt out on running this comp, and the lack of judges is a bit disheartening.

If anyone wants to take over as chair and start a new round feel free to message me and we can arrange it.

[pabelfly]

I'll be honest, I'm feeling a little burnt out on running this comp, and the lack of judges is a bit disheartening.

If anyone wants to take over as chair and start a new round feel free to message me and we can arrange it.

I actually started doing judging but didn't want to say anything until I was finished. Didn't really have time to do it before (I still don't) but I really like Junkyard. Also, saying I'll do the judging in a post will probably make me find the time to do the work.

I'd also be interested in running the comp.

[Thurbane]

Great stuff pabelfly.

[pabelfly]

Update: first two builds judged so far. Might need to go back later if I come up with other stuff, and I'll check with my work on previous comps to make sure I haven't missed anything, since it's been a while since I judged, but most of the judging for the first two builds should be done.

[pabelfly]

Progress update - four out of six builds judged.

[ciopo]

Hype! Thank you kindly :) junkwars and monster mash are my favourites, current burnout period I'm having notwithstanding

[loky1109]

Progress update - four out of six builds judged.

Such a good news!

[pabelfly]

I miss Junkyard. Let's judge some builds.

All categories for scoring start at a score of 3/5, with various additions and deductions in score explained.

Spoiler: Gorodon Ashand (15.75 / 20) (Edited from 15.5/20)

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Spoiler: Originality (3.5 / 5)

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I like that you took a level adjustment as part of your build. (+1 point)
As far as LA-based caster race options go, though, Half-Giant with Primordial template is pretty standard stuff. (-0.5 points)
Shadowcaster and Noctumancer as classes? Yes please. (+1 point)
Beguiler is a pretty expected class choice. I’ll ignore one of these for each build given the limited options the competition prereqs allow and how common ninth-level spellcasters typically are with optimization. (0 points).
Heighten Spell for early prestige class access is pretty standard cheese. (-1 point)

Spoiler: Power (4.25 / 5) (Edited from 4 / 5)

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Ninth-level casting is a level of optimization expected by the build comp. (+1 point)
I’m concerned about your low-level power, since Shadowcaster gets very limited low-level spell slots to start with even in a straight Shadowcaster build, and you’re two levels behind that. (-0.5 points)
Fifth-level beguiler casting adds some good versatility to your build. (+0.5 points)
Lots of counterspelling options, which I like. (+1 point)
Your STR is far too minmaxed. While you are large and have double carry weight, nearly everything else is going to be double weight as well, such as armor, weapons, and I’d argue most of your gear too. It’s far too easy to get into medium carry weight, reducing your max dex, your AC, and movement speed. And that’s not even touching the fact how easy it would be to target you with any sort of STR reduction spell or poison, etc, even small and temporary, and completely cripple you. (-0.5 points)
EDIT: Your argument that you have Powerful Build means you're less susceptible to carry weight concerns does have a point, but the penalty is also for low STR for strength-damaging effects and abilities. I'll give you half the difference. (+0.25 points)
You have lots of skill points, and full ranks in (or close to it) for Concentration, K: Arcana, K: The Planes, and Spellcraft. (+1 point)
I don’t get a lot of your skill point allocations. You went five ranks in Decipher Script for the Skill Synergy bonus, and you took 5 ranks in Geography to qualify for Paragnostic Apostle, but nothing else make sense to me. Your few ranks in Appraise does… well, I don’t know, because you don’t go into it with your character overview. Same for Disable Device and Open Lock. 10 ranks in Hide and 9 in Move Silently isn’t going to be enough to hit the checks you need at level 20 but together that could be a whole skill you’d be really good at. I feel your build would be much improved if you concentrated on a few skill checks, and maybe invested in a feat to expand your skill list, rather than spreading them all over randomly. (-0.5 points)
Saves are average with low Reflex saves. (-0.5 points)
107 hitpoints is on the low side for a naked level 20 character. Expected in a full caster comp but I’m penalizing you anyway. (-0.5 points)

Spoiler: Elegance (3 / 5)

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I wish you would have laid out your mysteries in a nice, neat list rather than cramming it all into the class table, especially with how mysteries change functionality over time. I’m not deducting points but this would have been really helpful for me. (0 points)
I’ve pinged Heighten Spell for early access elsewhere but I wish I could ping it here too. (0 points).
Multiclassing penalty. (-0.5 points)
Random two levels of Paragnostic Apostle, and at levels 19 and 20 no less. (-0.5 points)
Switching multiple times between Shadowcaster and Nocturmancer is inelegant. I get why you've done it, but still, inelegant. (-1 point)
Forgetting the repeated class switching for a moment, this overall build stub is fairly simple for a theurge build (+1 point)
Completely progressed a full Prestige Class(+1 point)

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (5 / 5)

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Ninth-level shadowcasting is a significant build investment. (+1 points)
You have plenty of metamagic options for your build, regardless of whether Metashadow feats are metamagic or not, and they give you a lot of extra ability for your build. (+1 point)
Heighten Spell is essential for early entry, I suppose (0 points).

Spoiler: Jarn the Smiter (11.5 / 20)

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Spoiler: Originality (1 / 5)

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Using Jermlaine for the benefits of a Tiny spellcaster is a common choice, and doubly so for a Wisdom-based caster. (-1 point)
Spirit Shaman is a pretty expected class choice. I’ll ignore one of these for each build given the limited options the competition prereqs allow and how common ninth-level spellcasters typically are with optimization. (0 points).
I'm not going to penalize staying with straight single-class character. (0 points)
Dragonborn Template is another really standard option. (-1 point)
Most of your metamagic choices are really standard stuff. (-1 point)
Consecrate Spell is a nonstandard metamagic choice. (+1 point)

Spoiler: Power (2 / 5)

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Ninth-level casting is a level of optimization expected by the build comp. (+1 point)
Two CHA? I like optimization as much as the next poster but that’s absurd, and not in a good way. (-2 points)
6 STR is pretty bad. It will be far too easy to get into medium carry weight, reducing your max dex, your AC, and movement speed. And that’s not even touching the fact how easy it would be to target you with any sort of STR reduction spell or poison, etc, even small and temporary, and completely cripple you. (-0.5 points)
Your expected strategy of Splinterbolt is going to be really weak, especially at higher levels. You can hit nearly always, I'll take your maths at face value. More concerning is that Splinterbolt is a physical attack with Piercing, and, I would opine, would be subject to Damage Reduction. For example, DR/15 means the first 15 points of damage are ignored, and that’s pretty common at high levels. 4d6 damage is 14 damage on average, so you’re only doing damage on high rolls or critical hits. “But wait,” you respond, “what about if I add Twinned Spell and Empowered Spell? That’s pretty powerful.” So that takes a eighth-level spell slot (Splinterbolt is 2nd level, Twinned adds four levels, Empower adds two), so you’re doing 6d6 damage x 6 hits – 15x6 damage reduction to do… 36 damage. And you can only do that fourteen times a day, presuming you don’t want to use those eighth or ninth-level spell slots for anything else. Even if you tried this out, I imagine trading away an eighth-level spell slot to do 36 damage in a turn with no added effects will get pretty old pretty fast. As a ballpark, I think that a damage-oriented build should be doing around 80-100 damage a turn after damage reduction and you’re not getting anywhere near that. (-1 point)
I like that you have complete access to Druid spells but you’ve also included a recommended spell list. (+1 point)
Decent Fort, great Will saves, and bad reflex saves. Call it even. (0 points).
130 odd hitpoints isn’t bad given the contest requirements. No points won or lost. (0 points)[/COLOR]
Full ranks in Listen and Spot is nice. (+0.5 points)

Spoiler: Elegance (4 / 5)

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You can’t get more elegant than a straight level 20 build. (+1 point)
I mention whether other builds attract multiclassing penalties and bonues in other builds, and I suppose having a straight Level 20 build is one way of ensuring you don’t have a multiclassing penalty. (+1 point)
Buying the Dragonborn template with money is inelegant (-1 point)

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (4 / 5)

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Ninth-level Spirit Shaman spellcasting is a significant build investment. (+1 points)
You have a lot of metamagic and it's integral to what you see as your central strategy. (+0.5 points)

Spoiler: Mike “Snowstorm” Boombottoms (13.5 / 20)

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Spoiler: Originality (2 / 5)

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Changeling for Racial Emulation is pretty common for optimization exercises. (-1 point)
Sorcerer is a pretty expected class choice. I’ll ignore one of these for each build given the limited options the competition prereqs allow and how common ninth-level spellcasters typically are with optimization. (0 points).
War Wizard and Recaster are both pretty common arcane prestige classes. (-1 point)
I’m not sure if Escalation Mage is a common optimization choice for arcane casters. It’s a full progression prestige class caster so my intuitive guess is that it is, but for some reason I can’t bring this to mind while I easily recall War Wizard and Recaster. I’ll give half a point for this. (+0.5 points)
Most of your metamagic choices are pretty standard. (-1 point)
Sculpt Spell is a bit unusual. (+0.5 points)
Draconic Reservoir surprised me. I’ll give you a point for that. (+1 point)

Spoiler: Power (2.5 / 5)

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Ninth-level casting is a level of optimization expected by the build comp. (+1 point)
I really like your spell list. Makes it easy to see what spells you get each level and have a rough overview of what they do. (+1 points)
We don’t normally talk about items in build comps. There should be no presumption that you’ll get access to the specific items you want, and if you do presume that, because your build won’t work without specific items in hand, you’ll get penalties on power or elegance. Also, all builds are getting the same wealth, so there’s no point adding it.
So let’s get into why it’s not a great idea to spend 200K on stat boosts. First, there are a bunch of other items you’re going to want that are much more pressing – status immunities, mind blank, miss chances, permanent true seeing, and so forth, not to mention items that boost your class abilities and consumables. All of these add up and get expensive quite quickly. Second, some of your items are going to have very limited utility. CHA, DEX and CON items are good choices. A Periapt of Wisdom gives you +3 to Will saves, and might be worth it if you’re struggling to hit Will save DCs. Strength and Intellect items are of marginal utility. Not saying they wouldn’t be useful at all, but I think that 72K could be better spent elsewhere. (-0.5 points)
Here’s a penalty for trying to pass off summoned Efreet wish spam in your build. There are three reasons for this. One: if you can do this, so can everyone else, and we’re back at the same point as before, just with everyone having inflated stats. So for the sake of fairness to everyone else, I’m just going to ignore the inherent stat bonuses from you trying to get “free” Wishes when calculating the rest of the build. Second, this simply isn’t realistic. No DM is going to let you get a free wish, let alone enough free wishes to equal 75% of a level 20 character’s experience. Three, this is really boring and stale cheese. I am not impressed. (-1 point)
So let’s talk about your main trick with Call Avalanche spam. It’s a neat trick, but only works when you can do your combat in an outdoors setting, and that’s by no means guaranteed – a DM should, hopefully, be run combats in a variety of settings and situations, including outdoors and in various indoor settings (buildings, dungeons, caves, etc). Fortunately, you have a lot of other tricks so you’ll be able to contribute outside of optimal situations. (+0.5 points)
112 hitpoints is kinda low for a naked level 20 character. I can see you’ve done a few things to help increase this, such as taking Battle Sorcerer and a prestige class that gives a small amount of bonus HP, but that just moves your HP up from terrible to just bad. Expected in a full caster comp but I’m penalizing you anyway. (-0.5 points)
Decent Fort, decent Will, low Reflex saves. (-0.5 points)
I don’t like your split in ranks for Knowledge (Arcane) and Use Magic Device. You need 8 ranks for Knowledge (Arcane) your prestige class choices, which I get, and then you have 10 ranks in UMD, which means you can cast with wands with some difficulty and with several rounds of failures before you cast, but you don’t have enough ranks in either to be really relevant by level 20. (-0.5 points)

Spoiler: Elegance (4 / 5)

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You finish off two prestige classes and significantly invest in your third. (+1 point)
A little bit of switching back and forth between prestige classes. (-0.5 points)
No multiclassing penalties (+1 point)
I’m going to ignore that two of the prestige classes come from different settings. There doesn’t seem to be much specific flavour for each of the prestige classes that would make me complain about mixing of the two. (0 points)
Let’s talk alignment. Your deity, “The Shadow” is Chaotic Evil. War Wizard requires you not be Evil or Chaotic. I’m guessing this is how your character ended up being True Neutral. While you are right that there’s no rules against these differences in alignment, this is lacking in elegance, hence, the penalty. (-0.5 points)

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (5 / 5)

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Ninth-level arcane casting is a significant build investment. (+1 points)
You have plenty of metamagic options for your build, and they add a lot of extra ability for your build. (+1 point)

 

Spoiler: Sudden Guardian (11 / 20)

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Spoiler: Originality (4 / 5)

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Human is super common. (-1 point)
Sorcerer is a pretty expected class choice. I’ll ignore one of these for each build given the limited options the competition prereqs allow and how common ninth-level spellcasters typically are with optimization. (0 points).
Everyone knows about Abjurant Champion. (-1 point)
I’d normally say Human Paragon is common, but in the context of a Caster build I’d argue that it isn’t so much. Half a point. (+0.5 points)
Not familiar with Spelldancer or Spellguard of the Silvery Moon. You have my interest and a point for each of these prestige classes. (+2 points)
Dancing as a build skill? I like. (+0.5 points)

Spoiler: Power (2 / 5)

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Ninth-level casting is a level of optimization expected by the build comp. (+1 point)
I really like your spell list. Makes it easy to see what spells you get each level and have a rough overview of what they do. (+1 points)
We don’t normally talk about items in build comps. There should be no presumption that you’ll get access to the specific items you want, and if you do presume that, because your build won’t work without specific items in hand, you’ll get penalties on power or elegance. Also, all builds are getting the same wealth, so there’s no point adding it.
So let’s get into why it’s not a great idea to spend 200K on stat boosts. First, there are a bunch of other items you’re going to want that are much more pressing – status immunities, mind blank, miss chances, permanent true seeing, and so forth, not to mention items that boost your class abilities and consumables. All of these add up and get expensive quite quickly. Second, some of your items are going to have very limited utility. CHA, DEX and CON items are good choices. A Periapt of Wisdom gives you +3 to Will saves, and probably not worth it for this build since you have a +18 naturally, before any sort of items. Strength and Intellect items are of marginal utility. Not saying they wouldn’t be useful at all, but I think that over 100K could be better spent elsewhere. (-0.5 points)
Here’s a penalty for trying to pass off summoned Efreet wish spam in your build. There are three reasons for this. One: if you can do this, so can everyone else, and we’re back at the same point as before, just with everyone having inflated stats. So for the sake of fairness to everyone else, I’m just going to ignore the inherent stat bonuses from you trying to get “free” Wishes when calculating the rest of the build. Second, this simply isn’t realistic. No DM is going to let you get a free wish, let alone enough free wishes to equal 75% of a level 20 character’s experience. Three, this is really boring and stale cheese. I am not impressed. (-1 point)
So let’s talk Spelldancer and the Perform check. Now it spells out specifically that increasing the cost of metamagic costs a full round per level increase. What about when we’re not increasing it a full round? The obvious answer to me is actually that things work pretty normally – you move at least half of your move speed to trigger Spelldance, and you cast as a standard action like normal. Not that there's any point to this, but you can do it. Maybe character flavour or something. You only get four rounds of Spelldancing a day before rolling Fort saves so I'm not sure this is a great idea though. (0 points)
Okay, Quicken Spell can never be used in conjunction with Spelldancing. Your response to this is: “Wait, Sudden Quicken isn’t Quicken Spell. I can use Sudden Quicken, and my combo says I can use it quite a bit.” Let’s read the text for “Sudden Quicken”: "Once per day, you may apply the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast." But we can’t do that, because we have a specific clause in our ability that prevents us from doing that. Sending it back one step to Sudden Quicken to use it doesn’t bypass this. (-0.25 points)
You still get your Sudden feat line once a day. Let's look at Sudden Extend: "Once per day, you may apply the Extend Spell feat to any spell you cast." There's nothing from Spelldancer that lets you bypass this use limit to get more uses of these abilities. Put another way, I'd say that the specific rules for the sudden metamagic line override the general class rules for Spelldancer. (-0.25 points)
Your Will is great. Your Fort and Reflex are the exact opposite of that. (-1 point)
Human Paragon has Adaptive Learning, which is a free class skill. Why not take it for Dancing, your main build skill, and forgo all the half-rank skill investment? Or Tumble, for movement benefits? A missed opportunity. (0 points)
Full skill ranks in Diplomacy, Concentration and Spellcraft. (+0.5 points)
So let's work out your other skill investments. Dance has either too many ranks (with an item but no wishes, we end up with 31 CHA and a 23 Perform Check against the max we'd need of 18, or we don't have enough (full ranks for character flavour). 4 Ranks Tumble is a class tax, but not investing any more misses the benefits of Tumble as a skill. We don't even invest a single extra point for the admittedly minor skill synergy benefits. UMD is enough that we can use wands out-of-combat with a bit of time, but we can't get their benefits in combat due to a lack of consistency. So, some unfortunate skill point allocation here. (-0.5 points)
Given the constraints of the contest, 126 hitpoints is not too bad for a naked level 20 character. I can also see you’ve done a few things to help increase this, such as taking Battle Sorcerer. Call it even. (0 points)

Spoiler: Elegance (1 / 5)

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Dip in Spelldancer. (-1 point)
Finishing off a short Prestige Class. I'm not counting Human Paragon for this. (+0.5 points)
A bunch of switching between progressing various Prestige Classes and even Sorcerer. (-1 point)
There's some really unfortunate anti-synergy in your build. You can't Spelldance with Quicken. Your Sudden metamagic feats don't require, or get anything out of Spelldancer. (-2 points)

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (4 / 5)

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Ninth-level arcane casting is a significant investment. (+1 point)
So you've taken a lot of metamagic feats, and that's good, but I'm not coninced they do a lot for your build. Everything but Quicken is once a day. Quicken comes at 15th level and is going to be difficult to justify using often. I suppose it's better than nothing. (0 points)

Spoiler: Thartharn Smokeaxe (Ineligible / 20)

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I don't mark this build "Ineligible" lightly.

The central problem with this build starts at level 6 with the feat, “Power in the Blood.” Let’s look at the feat text:

“You may cast one additional spell per day, over and above your allotment for the class that qualified you for your base bloodline feat. The additional spell must be one granted by that bloodline feat.”

You argue that this grants you a ninth-level spell at level 6. A feat giving you a spell slot above your current available level will specifically say you get it (eg. compare “Power in the Blood” with feat “Precocious Apprentice”. The latter explicitly says you get second-level spell slot) If Power In the Blood doesn’t say you explicitly get a higher-level spell, let alone a ninth-level spell slot, you don’t get it. Never mind that Duskblade isn't even capable of casting ninth-level spells.

So, the rest of the build doesn't work.

There are ways to get higher-level spells (see https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11734.0 for reference) but this isn’t one of them.

I did consider judging the build in detail, marking parts of it ineligible, but since you aren’t even close to getting ninth-level spells, it seems like a pointless exercise. But I will offer some quick notes:

Spoiler: Originality (4 / 5)

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Original – Dwarf caster, Dragon Disciple, Bloodline feats
Unoriginal – Abjurant Champion, most metamagic options here are pretty overused
Left Alone – Duskblade (everyone gets one base class for free)

Spoiler: Power (0 / 5)

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Really hard to rate since your build is so heavily based on misunderstanding a feat. I’d say you have 3rd level spells, rather than 9ths, a weak breath weapon, some Duskblade goodies and Dragon Disciple bonuses to boost martial prowess, but you’re really going to struggle to contribute. Some decent stats though and I liked your skill points.

Spoiler: Elegance (3/5)

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Not the messiest level order and no multiclassing penalties.

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (0 / 5)

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You don’t reach 9ths. If you had, your metamagic doesn’t seem integral to this build, and you're missing all of the spell slots everyone else has so you could go full caster all day. I'd probably give UoSI maybe a 3 if I had agreed to your interpretation of the feat.

Spoiler: Foehn Elf-Friend (15.75 / 20) (Adjusted from 13/20)

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Spoiler: Originality (4.5 / 5)

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A Sylph? I really didn’t expect a monster to make an appearance. (+1 point)
All your metamagic options are pretty standard. (-1 point)
Deafening spell is a bit of a surprise though. (+0.5 points)
Sorcerer is an expected class choice. Given the limited options available, and how common it is to opimise casters, I'll ignore one of these per build. (0 points).
Not familiar with Spellguard of the Silvery Moon. Given it's already appeared once this contest, I'm guessing that's a hole in my DnD knowledge, rather than a rare class, but I gave another entry a point for this so you get it too. (+1 points)
Point for Dark Scholar too, since you're using a caster class without full progression. (+1 points)
Mindbender is a common caster class. (-1 point)
Ruathar is kinda common. No points won or lost. (0 points)

Spoiler: Power (4.25 / 5) (Adjusted from 3/5)

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Ninth-level casting is a level of optimization expected by the build comp. (+1 point)
A bunch of skills with good investment so they’re useful at high-level. (+1 point)
You have a bunch of skills with odd skill allocations. Too much for skill synergies, not enough to be relevant at level 20 or to reach particular benchmarks. (-0.5 points)
I will penalize you later for the dips and constant switching between classes, but I do appreciate the extra power and utility they give you. (+1 point)
Two low saves but a high Will save. (-1 point)
EDIT: I've slightly adjusted the points for your saves due to your build's playstyle, but this can still be an issue. (+0.5 points)
82HP at ECL 20 is pretty low. (-1 point)
EDIT: I've slightly adjusted the points for your HP due to your build's playstyle, but this can still be an issue. (+0.5 points)
Your STR is far too minmaxed. It’s far too easy for you to get into medium carry weight, reducing your max dex, your AC, and movement speed. And that’s not even touching the fact how easy it would be to target you with any sort of STR reduction spell or poison, etc, even small and temporary, and completely cripple you. (-0.5 points)

EDIT: I've slightly adjusted the penalty to your STR points for this due to your build's playstyle, but I still see your low STR as an issue. (+0.25 points)

Spoiler: Elegance (2.5 / 5) (Edited from 1 / 5)

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I would have preferred you formatted your entry so it was ended at level 16, since you have 4 LA. No points won or lost (0 points).
Two one-level dips. (-1 point)
EDIT: Apparently I can't penalize this. Mea culpa. (+1 point)
Haven’t finished any of your prestige classes. (-1 point)
The constant switching between various classes needs to be penalized somewhere. (-1 point)
EDIT: In retrospect, I think I was too harsh on this, but I still don't like how you leave Dark Scholar only to come back to it later after going to another prestige class (+0.5 points)
Your nickname is "Elf Friend" but you're not going to take more than one level in Ruathar? Just an observation, no points won or lost. (0 points).
No multiclass penalties. (+1 point)

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient (4.5 / 5)

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Ninth-level spellcasting is a significant build investment. (+1 point)
Lots of metamagic options, but not quite as build-critical as I’d like.(+0.5 points)

[loky1109]

Thank you, pabelfly!

Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Chef	pabelfly	Total	Place
Gorodan Ashsand	TN Primordial Half-Giant	Beguiler 1/Shadowcaster 6/Noctumancer 10/Paragnostic Apostle 2		15.50	15.50	1st
Jarn the Smiter	LG Dragonborn Jermlaine	Spirit Shaman 20		11.50	11.50	4th
Mike "snowstorm" Boombottoms	TN Changeling	Metamagic Specialist Stalwart Sorcerer 5/Escalation Mage 6/War Wizard of Cormyr 4/Recaster 5		13.50	13.50	2nd
Sudden Guardian	LG Human	Human Paragon 3/Domain Access Battle Sorcerer 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spelldancer 2/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5		11.00	11.00	5th
Thartharn Smokeaxe	NE Fireblood Dwarf	Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Pyroclastic Dragon Disciple 10		N/A	N/A	N/A
The Silent Sorcerous Spellguard Sylph (Foehn Elf-Friend)	CN Advanced Sylph	Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer 1/Ruathar 1/Mindbender 1/Dark Scholar 4/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4		13.00	13.00	3rd

Pabelfly, it looks like you have miscalculate in the Jarn the Smiter's UoSI.
UPD: updated.

[pabelfly]

Okay, fixed. It should read 11.5

Now we just need to wait for disputes, but in the meantime, I might be running Junkyard instead of Thurbane,, so suggestions for comp ideas are welcome.

[loky1109]

Now we just need to wait for disputes, but in the meantime, I might be running Junkyard instead of Thurbane,, so suggestions for comp ideas are welcome.

Drunken Master + Ki Blast - Monk.

Now looking at this I think while both Drunken Master and Ki Blast should be interesting without Monk, they doesn't synergy between themselves at all.

[Inevitability]

I came up with these further upthread, each uses one of the PHB classes as the forbidden ingredient, I tried to pick mandated ingredients with pretty wide distribution but a strong thematic link to the original class. I also tried to avoid prior ingredients.

Fast Movement + Improved Uncanny Dodge - Barbarian
Morale bonuses + Bardic Knowledge (or similar Lore) - Bard
Necromancy + Shields - Cleric Odd combo but it's not immediately apparent what you'd use other than a cleric
Summoning + Wild Empathy - Druid
Melee weapons + Ranged weapons - Fighter Hey, you try coming up with a fighter class feature
Combat Reflexes + Special monk weapons - Monk
Smite + Mounted Combat - Paladin
Spellcasting + archery - Ranger (originally had two-weapon fighting here but that's rough enough already without gluing casting on)
Skill Mastery + Sneak Attack - Rogue
Dragonblood subtype + Reserve Feats - Sorcerer
Spellbook + Illusions - Wizard

[Inevitability]

...and just to continue in that vein, some ideas based on the PHB2 classes.

Feinting + Enchantment - Beguiler
Breath Weapon + Healing - Dragon Shaman
Arcane Strike + Combat Casting - Duskblade
Difficult Terrain + Heavy Armor - Knight

aaand three for some Complete classes I like:

Arcane caster level + SLAs - Warlock
Sudden Strike + Trapfinding - Ninja
Familiar + Mettle - Hexblade

[loky1109]

Weapon Specialisation + Bond with specific weapon (like WoL, or Kensai, or something other) - Fighter

[pabelfly]

Current shortlist for next Junkyard Comp (I'll wait a few days for other suggestions before doing a poll)

Smite + Mounted Combat feat – Paladin
Improved Multiweapon Fighting + Spellcasting – Barbarian
Spellcasting + Rage – Rage Mage.
Vow of Poverty – Alternate Forms
Truespeak Check + Tome of Battle



I know the last two aren't in the typical format but I think they're in the same vein as Junkyard, even if they don't follow the exact same format.

Not quite there:

Weapon Specialisation + Bond with specific weapon (like WoL, or Kensai, or something other) - (Needs a bit of work, IMO, and Weapon Specialization is rare outside of Fighter, but the core concept is interesting)

[loky1109]

Spellcasting + Rage - Rage Mage.

[pabelfly]

Spellcasting + Rage - Rage Mage.

Okay, added.

[Thurbane]

Hey all, sorry, got a lot going on, will post the disputes soon.

My big regret this round, is that I messed up the roman numerals, and missed that it was XL until after I'd set the theme.

If I'd realized, I'd have done Large Size + (?) - size changing magic.

[ciopo]

Thank you for judging, no disputes from me (tho I have thoughts I may share later)

Thank you for hosting all these years, Thurbane!

[loky1109]

Weapon Specialisation + Bond with specific weapon (like WoL, or Kensai, or something other) - (Needs a bit of work, IMO, and Weapon Specialization is rare outside of Fighter, but the core concept is interesting)

This is the point. )))
And I can remember even narrower limitations.

[Inevitability]

Hey all, sorry, got a lot going on, will post the disputes soon.

My big regret this round, is that I messed up the roman numerals, and missed that it was XL until after I'd set the theme.

If I'd realized, I'd have done Large Size + (?) - size changing magic.

Large Size + something brainy - size changing magic might've been interesting? Most of the viable Large PCs are brutes.

(where 'something brainy' could be anything from knowledge devotion to disable device ranks to intelligence-based casting)

[Inevitability]

[Evil] spells + Exalted feats - Malconvoker seems like a mean one, though I can think of a few ways to (arguably) do it.

[pabelfly]

Large Size + something brainy - size changing magic might've been interesting? Most of the viable Large PCs are brutes.

This is a good one. I'm going to keep this in mind for later contests, but I'm not adding it to this short list because I don't want too many suggestions from one person on there

[Thurbane]

Just FYI, the size thing was originally my idea, he just fleshed it out

Time for disputes:

Thank you for judging!

While generally I agree with you and my entry looks being at first place I still have some disagreements.

Spoiler

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Beguiler is a pretty expected class choice. I’ll ignore one of these for each build given the limited options the competition prereqs allow and how common ninth-level spellcasters typically are with optimization. (0 points).

Did you take into account that Beguiler isn't used as a main part of a dish, but is, sorta, garnish?

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Your STR is far too minmaxed. While you are large and have double carry weight, nearly everything else is going to be double weight as well, such as armor, weapons, and I’d argue most of your gear too.

I'm not large actually, I have powerful build. While I could be considered as large for purpose of carry weight (which I, frankly, totally forgot) I still can use medium-sized gear.

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I wish you would have laid out your mysteries in a nice, neat list rather than cramming it all into the class table, especially with how mysteries change functionality over time.

I'll take it into account for the future.

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I don’t get a lot of your skill point allocations. You went five ranks in Decipher Script for the Skill Synergy bonus, and you took 5 ranks in Geography to qualify for Paragnostic Apostle, but nothing else make sense to me. Your few ranks in Appraise does… well, I don’t know, because you don’t go into it with your character overview. Same for Disable Device and Open Lock. 10 ranks in Hide and 9 in Move Silently isn’t going to be enough to hit the checks you need at level 20 but together that could be a whole skill you’d be really good at. I feel your build would be much improved if you concentrated on a few skill checks, and maybe invested in a feat to expand your skill list, rather than spreading them all over randomly.

Let's figure it out.
Appraise taken for qualify for Magical Appraisal. I didn't highlighted this, but Magical Appraisal is in the table and its usefulness even at later levels is clear.
Disable Device and Open Lock came from the first Beguiler level. This skill points just couldn't be reallocated, plus even with only 4 ranks these skills could be useful. It's more true about DD than about OL. After all, I have trapfinding and at least +5 Int.
About Hide and Move Silently it's my choice, I almost always try to up this skill both in similar amounts. And this amount is so small in this entry because that skills are in-class only for Shadowcaster, but not for Noctumancer.
Maybe I should put more skill points into Hide, but I right now look at my table and levels when I allocate skill points into Hid and MS and best relocation could be Hide 13/MS 6. Not such big difference. Plus, I draw your attention to the Sight Eclipsed mystery, Sight Obscured fundamental and at will Invisibility SLA. With this options even 10 ranks in hide are useful. And finally, not every enemy has full maxed Spot and Listen.
Sleight of Hand has good usage via Quicker than the Eye mystery.

I feel your build would be much improved if you concentrated on a few skill checks, and maybe invested in a feat to expand your skill list, rather than spreading them all over randomly.

It wasn't randomly. Only skill point which I really could reallocate were 3 from SM to Hide. And it maybe doesn't look so, but my entry is very feat starved, I didn't remember now which precisely, but I abandoned several feats in favor of Reactive Counterspell chain.

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Switching multiple times between Shadowcaster and Nocturmancer is inelegant. I get why you've done it, but still, inelegant.

It's clear we have different understanding of Elegance.
According chair's guideline:

Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power.

In my book such juggling the class levels to obtain so needed bonus feats is opposite very elegant.

But I see it is your point of view. Of course it could differ from mine.

You have a bunch of skills with odd skill allocations. Too much for skill synergies, not enough to be relevant at level 20 or to reach particular benchmarks. (-0.5 points)

It's a bit hard for me to respond to this when I'm not told what exactly is wrong, but looking at my skills:

-Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate are all there for Mindbender qualification and get no further investment.
-Concentration, Spellcraft, and the Knowledges are boosted throughout the build.

The remaining skills are Balance, Listen, Spot, Move Silently, and Survival, and I assume you're talking about those.

Balance 5 prevents us from being flat-footed while balancing, especially relevant when shapechanged or pretending to be human.
Survival 7 gives us a +10 modifier, which lets us take 10 to get food and water for ourselves and five others, grant ourselves and five others a bonus against natural hazards, and predict the weather two days in advance. It's still a bit arbitrary, but 'hitting DC 20 checks' is actually a pretty natural target to aim for with the skill!
Spot and Listen and Move Silently are all opposed checks that we will naturally be making during our adventuring career, whether we try to or not. Boosting them does something for us even if we can't point at specific benchmarks.

More to the point, note how all these skills were purchased before we take any class levels. We're only having this conversation because I'm a sylph, so I start my career with 4 RHD and a very limited list of Sylph Class Skills. Cross-class ranks only do so much, so I look at the Sylph List for anything worth taking. Later, I lose those class skills and I no longer have 8+int skill points per level. That means that, as a natural consequence of playing this legal player race, I will have some skills that get early investment and are never boosted again. That shouldn't be a problem!

I already disagree with penalizing people for having weird unnecessary skill ranks if those don't otherwise impact the build, but doing so when I can literally not avoid having frontloaded ranks is just insulting.

If you still think I deserve a penalty here, please explain how I could have spent my skill points to avoid it.

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Two low saves but a high Will save. (-1 point)
82HP at ECL 20 is pretty low. (-1 point)

Foehn is permanently invisible, darkstalking, and casts her spells silently: enemies will at best be able to guess her position if they make a Listen check over the chaos of combat. This isn't really mentioned anywhere in the judging, when realistically it's going to result in a fair number of missed attacks and untargetable spells (you can't cast Slay Living on someone whose position you have not pinpointed!). As I specifically point out in the text, when you're flying and invisible at a reasonable distance, even 'big AoEs' like circle of death can mis-target pretty reasonably.

Your STR is far too minmaxed. It’s far too easy for you to get into medium carry weight, reducing your max dex, your AC, and movement speed. And that’s not even touching the fact how easy it would be to target you with any sort of STR reduction spell or poison, etc, even small and temporary, and completely cripple you.

Similarly, it's not easy to target Foehn with strength reduction spells or poisons, because the enemies will at best be guessing a square in the kinda right direction (or, more realistically, they decide to cast a spell at the people they can see). At no point do you acknowledge that the trick that I spent the entire build working towards might have any sort of positive impact on my defensive abilities.

As for carrying capacity: I don't have armor, I don't have weapons, and I technically don't even need clothes. I have room for fifteen pounds of gear, and caster magic items tend to be small lightweight objects like amulets and rings anyway. Plus, a lot of Foehn's gear will probably be divine utility scrolls, which she can hand to another PC for safekeeping and only retrieve when needed.

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Two one-level dips. (-1 point)

Quoting the first post in this thread: "Dipping should not be penalized unless it results in a multiclass xp penalty; if the system won't penalize it, neither should judges".

The constant switching between various classes needs to be penalized somewhere. (-1 point)

So I was a little confused about what the 'constant switching' meant here, but looking at the other judging entries it seems to mean... 'taking levels in class A, then class B, and then class A again?'. I do this at one point in my build, when I abandon Dark Scholar 2 to enter Spellguard for four levels, then return to Dark Scholar. Does that really count as 'constant switching'? Does it warrant a full point of deduction, the same penalty that went to the tangled mess that is Sudden Guardian?

If it's instead a penalty for having many classes in the build, as opposed to the order in which I take them, I refer back to the rule that dipping explicitly should not be penalized.

First of all, pabelfly, thank you for judging very much!

Now, to dispute.

Spoiler: Dispute

Show

I see why you decide my entry is illegal, I was ready for this from very beginning, but I think I should try to convince you.

A feat giving you a spell slot above your current available level will specifically say you get it (eg. compare “Power in the Blood” with feat “Precocious Apprentice”. The latter explicitly says you get second-level spell slot)

Do you understand that this argument is double-edged blade?
Look at Extra Slot feat (from Complete Arcane)

You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.

See? We have here upper border line which is absent in Power in the Blood.
Precocious Apprentice says 2nd level because this feat gives slot of specific level and should specify what exactly. At the other hand, Extra Slot and Power in the Blood give slot in some range of levels and if range isn't specified I deduce it could be of any level. Yes, it/s maybe too ambitious deduction, but it clearly isn't, as you call it, misunderstanding.

Never mind that Duskblade isn't even capable of casting ninth-level spells.

It's more strong point, but... Well, let's imagine. Duskblade with Versatile Spellcaster and known 6th level spell (from bloodline feat or from any other source) or some metamagic feat which increases needed slot level. Could he cast this spell? I know nobody non-epic couldn't cast spells more than 9th level, but I don't talk about more than 9th. And even if there is somewhere rule against this, feat text is supersede it: "...over and above your allotment for the class..."

I understand it is RAI-clear that this feat shouldn't work in a such way, but I saw more nonsense ideas that aren't evaluate as illegal. After all it isn't typed 1d43 whip, it just is bad wording with unexpected consequences. Like "DRW kobolds are true dragons" assumption or Pun-Pun (nobody says he is illegal).
By RAW my reading is ambiguous and shaky, but possible.

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There are ways to get higher-level spells (see https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11734.0 for reference) but this isn’t one of them.

What argument is this? Do you really thing these peoples couldn't miss something? It's 2013 year. I saw more recent handbooks which haven't all possible options.

Power (0 / 5)

Okay, I see why you think my entry is illegal, but why do you think it has 0 in Power? Even with no 9th level spells. Does my dwarf can't harm anybody at all, has totally no out of combat options and will die by any little scratch? Even Commoner 20 should has at least 1 in power.

If you had, your metamagic doesn’t seem integral to this build

Yes, not integral, if you mean "could work without it," but I think Maximized and not Maximized Disintegrate are two big differences. And this Maximized is technically free. Plus I purposefully took Accelerate Matamagic for it.

Left Alone – Duskblade (everyone gets one base class for free)

Doesn't this specific class surprise you?

[pabelfly]

Thanks for the dispute feedback. I'll tackle the other two later. For now, I'll just go over "Thartharn Smokeaxe".

So my first question after reading your build was, has anyone else used the exploit you were? Turns out no-one else had, as far as I could tell. I did spend plenty of time trying to find people using the exploit you claim exists, but had no luck in spite of using multiple search engines and a bunch of different search terms. As far as I can tell, this is a new claim.

However, the fact that no-one else has come to your interpretation of the feat is not itself compelling evidence that it doesn't work, since you might have found a new exploit no-one else had.

The wording of the feat doesn't seem to be an issue to me.

Power in the Blood: "You may cast one additional spell per day, over and above your allotment for the class that qualified you for your base bloodline feat. The additional spell must be one granted by that bloodline feat"

So, what is spell allotment? Fortunately, we have the term in our class writeup: "Your base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Duskblade." At sixth level, you get 6 0-level spells, 6 1st-level spells, and 3 2nd-level spells (plus whatever bonuses you get from ability score). So we get one extra spell above all of that with our feat. The class explicitly says in table that you aren't able to cast beyond 2nd-level though - that's why third, fourth and fifth-level spellcasting has a strikethrough for that class level. If you want to claim you can override the class table's text with a feat, I'd want the feat explicitly spelled out that the text here is overridden. Like Precocious Apprentice giving out a second-level spell slot at first level.

Well, let's imagine. Duskblade with Versatile Spellcaster and known 6th level spell (from bloodline feat or from any other source) or some metamagic feat which increases needed slot level. Could he cast this spell?

No. Because Duskblades are limited to fifth-level casting. And if it was level 16 instead of 17, they'd only be able to cast fourth-level spells. The spells per day table makes this clear.

This isn't just a question of me using RAI, I don't believe RAW supports you either. The class progression table is extremely clear what level of spells you should be able to cast, and nothing makes me think you can cast ninth-level spells or that your feat should work.

As for discussing the informal ratings, as I said, there's not much point. Power is a zero because you had some nice stats and skill points but you haven't even remotely reached any sort of build benchmark or reasonable level of damage. Second-level spells, a 4d8 breath weapon, a few extra AC, and attacks with no feats to back it up is not going to do well at all at level 20, unfortunately.

[pabelfly]

Okay, finished working on the judging rebuttal for Gordon Ashland, I'll get onto Foehn Elf-Friend next, and hope to have this done maybe tomorrow some time. I'll post both together.

In the meantime, since I'll be taking over running the contest, I've decided to do a poll for the possible options for the next contest. You can select multiple options from the choices listed, if multiple options interest you, and I'll be leaving the poll open for a week before starting the next contest.

https://take.quiz-maker.com/poll4659777x23Ed4927-146