Reaction competition:sentinel on ancestral guardians tank?

[Hiro Quester]

Playing an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian/Echo knight, as a tank, in our new campaign starting next week. My main objective is protection of my allies.

AG has a sixth level ability to use a reaction to reduce damage to an ally within 60ft, by 2d6.

Echo knight enables you to have an “echo” of yourself within 30 feet, and take opportunity attacks from either location. This magnifies usefulness of Sentinel. It seems an excellent feat for stopping the bad guys from reaching your allies. But it also uses your reaction.

Plus Echo knight enables you to teleport switch places with your echo. So you take OA, then bonus action teleport to 30 ft away and enemy is stuck with your echo (while having disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and granting everyone but you resistance against their attacks). And you can make your attacks from your echo. So sentinel enables kiting, too.

For a protective type, there is also a temptation to take interception or protection fighting styles, for protecting friends up close. And you will often be up close, to attract hits away from your squishy friends.

I’m also taking up to 6 levels in Grave Cleric for flavor and backstory and party needs and campaign reasons (yes, I know it’s not optimal, but it’s necessary and flavorful). Starting campaign at third level as a barbarian shaman (barb2/cleric1).

So sentinel at death’s door negating critical hits will also eventually be a good use of a reaction.

Given the competition for your reaction, then, I wonder if sentinel is going to be wasted. I have heard one person say that when playing AG, they saved their reactions for absorbing damage, and didn’t use OAs much.

it seems like stopping at least one enemy from getting to your allies, so they stay and attack you or your shadow instead, would also mitigate damage, though.

What do you think? Is it better to save reactions for interceptions and absorbing damage, and take a different feat than Sentinel? There are many attractive feats for this character.

[RogueJK]

There is certainly Reaction competition here. However, consider than an Echo Knight/Ancestral Guardian generally wants to get to Fighter 5 or 6 ASAP, and only then take Barbarian levels. So in that case, your Spirit Shield ability at Barbarian 6 won't come online until overall Character Level 11 or 12 (Fighter 5 or 6/Barbarian 6). Will your campaign get that high?

Plus, it sounds like you're throwing Grave Cleric in the mix too. So there's a good chance that you won't ever hit Barbarian 6, depending on your exact leveling progression.


I didn't take Sentinel on my current Echo Knight/Ancestral Guardian primarily because in my current group over the past 4 campaigns, OAs rarely occur. So I didn't feel the extra benefit on the very occasional OAs was worth an spending an entire ASI on Sentinel. Instead, I'm relying on Interception Fighting Style for my go-to Reaction ability, and plan on swapping it out for something like Defense fighting style after Spirit Shield comes online at Barbarian 6 (if the campaign gets that high, or if I even decide to go past Barbarian 3 rather than simply focusing on Fighter levels).

Also, remember than only the first Sentinel ability applies to an Echo Knight's Echo. The 2nd and 3rd abilities only apply to your PC themselves. So Sentinel may not be as broadly useful on an Echo Knight as you might be thinking...

Plus Echo knight enables you to teleport switch places with your echo. So you take OA, then bonus action teleport to 30 ft away and enemy is stuck with your echo (while having disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and granting everyone but you resistance against their attacks).

Nope, for two reasons.

1) Opportunity Attacks are taken on someone else's turn. You cannot use Bonus Actions on any turn but your own, only Reactions during another PC/enemy's turn. So no BA Echo swapping after an OA.

2) Ancestral Protectors applies to the first enemy you attack on your turn. Hitting with an OA during someone else's turn doesn't trigger Ancestral Protectors.

[Skrum]

Considering the opportunity cost of Sentinel, I would not get it for this build. I think your suspicions are correct; your reaction is going to be in too high demand and Sentinel isn't going to see the use it needs to justify taking it.

If you still want a defensive feat, Shield Master gives value even without your reaction. Skill Expert for expertise in athletics can be great too (shoving and grabbing someone is solid CC, and a way to approximate Sentinel's movement-denial). While it wouldn't fit a theme of a stanch front-liner, there's no denying how good Mobility can be on an AG barb. Run in and out combat (with further mobility options from echo knight), and it's possible whoever is tagged with your guardians can't hit anyone that isn't protected.

[Hiro Quester]

Nope, for two reasons.

1) Opportunity Attacks are taken on someone else's turn. You cannot use Bonus Actions on any turn but your own, only Reactions during another PC/enemy's turn. So no BA Echo swapping after an OA.

2) Ancestral Protectors applies to the first enemy you attack on your turn. Hitting with an OA during someone else's turn doesn't trigger Ancestral Protectors.

Right. It’s the other way around. You hit them on your turn then BA away, leaving your echo there to OA stop them when they try to come after you.

Edit: and for level progression (for flavor and story reasons) I’m starting the campaign angry. So AG barbarian 6 first. Then fighter levels once I have a little character growth and calm down and only use outrage discriminatory and tactically, at outrageous injustices etc.

[Crucius]

I played this exact build (Barb6-Fight3 with sentinel) and it was awesome.

Yes you have two reactions that are fairly common, but that's what makes it fun: you have a choice to make.

There is action economy and there is fun economy.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm. I think Sentinel will probably be a fun addition at some point. But perhaps it's a good idea to take something else first, and see how many Opportunity Attacks I have chances to make.

There are lots of other feats I will also need, in addition to Con and Str boosts. Resilient Wisdom for better wisdom saves, (also boosts Wis to 14) is a high priority first, to protect against effects that turn me against my friends, and also improve spell effects and DCs.

[LudicSavant]

Playing an Ancestral Guardians Barbarian/Echo knight, as a tank, in our new campaign starting next week. My main objective is protection of my allies.

AG has a sixth level ability to use a reaction to reduce damage to an ally within 60ft, by 2d6.

Echo knight enables you to have an “echo” of yourself within 30 feet, and take opportunity attacks from either location. This magnifies usefulness of Sentinel. It seems an excellent feat for stopping the bad guys from reaching your allies. But it also uses your reaction.

Plus Echo knight enables you to teleport switch places with your echo. So you take OA, then bonus action teleport to 30 ft away and enemy is stuck with your echo (while having disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and granting everyone but you resistance against their attacks). And you can make your attacks from your echo. So sentinel enables kiting, too.

For a protective type, there is also a temptation to take interception or protection fighting styles, for protecting friends up close. And you will often be up close, to attract hits away from your squishy friends.

I’m also taking up to 6 levels in Grave Cleric for flavor and backstory and party needs and campaign reasons (yes, I know it’s not optimal, but it’s necessary and flavorful). Starting campaign at third level as a barbarian shaman (barb2/cleric1).

So sentinel at death’s door negating critical hits will also eventually be a good use of a reaction.

Given the competition for your reaction, then, I wonder if sentinel is going to be wasted. I have heard one person say that when playing AG, they saved their reactions for absorbing damage, and didn’t use OAs much.

it seems like stopping at least one enemy from getting to your allies, so they stay and attack you or your shadow instead, would also mitigate damage, though.

What do you think? Is it better to save reactions for interceptions and absorbing damage, and take a different feat than Sentinel? There are many attractive feats for this character.

What level split are you thinking of?

After all, you don't even necessarily need to go for Barb 6. I've got a sample build that does just that here.

I’m also taking up to 6 levels in Grave Cleric for flavor and backstory and party needs and campaign reasons (yes, I know it’s not optimal, but it’s necessary and flavorful). Starting campaign at third level as a barbarian shaman (barb2/cleric1).

There are almost certainly better options than Grave Cleric for the shaman flavor (not only because Grave Cleric isn't particularly good dip material, but also because it's pretty bland and replaceable flavorwise). Though to get really specific on that I'd need to know exactly what you're going for flavorwise.

[Hiro Quester]

That ancestral avenger build is a really good option, if you’re after dealing massive amounts of damage and locking down many enemies.


I’m going more for protecting my friends as my highest priority. She’s a helpful and protective type of person. Our other party members are a sorcerer, monk, and ranger, all of which will be dealing lots of damage hopefully. My job is to make sure they don’t die.


The grave cleric is mostly for flavor, and for a particular aspiration possible in our world. Clerics and paladins who worship the goddess of death, can become the equivalent of Valkyries, if they serve her well and pass certain tests.

So I am once in a while, particularly at higher levels, going to add on a few levels of cleric. But I’m starting with one level of cleric to add the shamanic flavor at the beginning. Plus our party needs a little extra healing from time to time, since we don’t have a dedicated Healer.

Somebody needs to be able to cast remove curse or lesser restoration or revivify. Being able to bless the party during encounters when I’m not raging can also be useful. It also doesn’t hurt to be able to make an enemy vulnerable to a blast spell from our sorcerer, or negate an enemy’s critical hit.


The grave cleric is also for backstory reasons. My character is the last surviving member of her tribe. The rest of the tribe was massacred and their spirits have been prevented from entering the afterlife.

But the goddess of death has enabled me to preserve the spirits of my mentor/grandmother and the rest of the tribe and take them with me, by burning their bodies in a funeral pyre made from the wood of our sacred temple, and using the ashes to make tattoo ink.

I have tribal tattoos of the essence of my family and friends all over my body. So I am literally their grave. They cannot enter the afterlife unless I perform certain TBD tasks for the goddess of death before I die.

This is how I have ancestral guardians, especially my mentor/ grandmother, who can emerge to help me from time to time. And I am serving the goddess of death, in order to earn their ability to enter the afterlife. The hope is that by passing these trials I will also in the right to become a Valkyrie. That needs Cleric 8, for 4th level spells.

I strongly considered a paladin in this build. But none of the oaths really suit this character. And I would need 13 levels to qualify to become a Valkyrie. Druid would also possibly have worked, but I played a druid summoner/tank in a previous campaign.

So serving the goddess of death as a grave cleric isn’t optimal, but it has a lot of flavor, and story relevance that I’m committed to.

So the minimum I need in each class, is probably barbarian3/fighter 3/cleric8. I will probably take each martial class to at least four for the ASI. I will go much deeper into echo night. But I’m ambivalent about whether to go to barbarian 6.

The latter is probably more optimal. But barbarian five gets me extra attack sooner, given that I am starting with barbarian. And then I might as well go barbarian 6 for the ability to reduce my allies’ damage.

So realistically, the final build will probably be barbarian 6/ fighter8/ cleric8.

We start playing in two weeks.

Though…. Hmmmm…. I’m sort of thinking it might be possible to change the character and begin with fighter/cleric without much changes. My ancestral guardian mentor would be my echo for a while.

But for story reasons, given the massacre of my friends and family, it sort of makes sense to be angry right now and play into that theme.

Edit: the multiclass is possible because DM grants a bonus 2 points in point buy for a backstory he can hang plot hooks upon. Putting those in Wis. Celestial race, with +1 to Str, Con and Wis, gives 16/14/16/8/13/8.

I see your points in the linked post about the value of warlock or gloom stalker. But I’m playing a hexblade in a different campaign, and another player is a ranger in this game. Celestial tomelock was another option, but shoring up wisdom saves seems prudent.

[LudicSavant]

So the minimum I need in each class, is probably barbarian3/fighter 3/cleric8.

So realistically, the final build will probably be barbarian 6/ fighter8/ cleric8.

What progression order are you looking at? How do you envision this character working at different tiers, since you're starting from level 3?

I suspect there's a whole lot to be done to tune this up before we even start worrying about reaction competition.

Clerics and paladins who worship the goddess of death, can become the equivalent of Valkyries, if they serve her well and pass certain tests.

The hope is that by passing these trials I will also in the right to become a Valkyrie. That needs Cleric 8, for 4th level spells.

I strongly considered a paladin in this build. But none of the oaths really suit this character. And I would need 13 levels to qualify to become a Valkyrie.

What exactly do you need in order to become a Valkyrie? If it's a flavor requirement, or a 'you can pass these trials' requirement, there are probably a dozen different ways to fulfill it. You seem to have fairly specific capability requirements in mind, since you're mentioning specific levels (like "Cleric 8" or "Paladin 13").

Anyways, AG6+ and several Echo fighter levels and going for 4th level spellcasting is probably going to be a bumpy ride, particularly since you're starting from level 3 and presumably want to become a Valkyrie sooner rather than later.

If I had a clearer idea of what your fluff/story aims were, we would probably be able to make better suggestions for how to flavorfully and mechanically realize your vision.

[Hiro Quester]

thanks. Becoming a Valkyrie requires 4th level spells (to cast find greater steed, for a pure-black Pegasus) and service to the goddess of death. So paladin 13 or cleric 8 (goddess grants it as an extra domain spell). Or bard with magical secrets.

[edit: DM clarified that entering the goddess’s service as a Valkyrie requires being a spellcaster, with the potential to eventually be able to cast 4th level spells. ]

Cleric seems to offer enough to get AG barbarian and echo knight to useful levels, and also offers some flexibility in preparing useful spells that don’t require a spell attack or saving throw.

edit: it’s not an urgent thing. Getting the main parts of AG and EK synergy will probably be a higher priority.

further edit. I guess EK 10 might be a good goal, and fully tanking an entire hit would be far superior to AG 6 ability to reduce damage. And Cleric 7 would get the requisite 4th level spells. So AG3/ EK 10/ cleric 7 could work.

But that leaves some if the better stuff for very late in the campaign (we are likely to go to 20). Valkyrie will probably be a retirement plan, anyway.

[LudicSavant]

So realistically, the final build will probably be barbarian 6/ fighter8/ cleric8

That would be a level 22 character. You'll have to adjust somewhere.

Here's some ideas:

thanks. Becoming a Valkyrie requires 4th level spells (to cast find greater steed, for a pure-black Pegasus) and service to the goddess of death. So paladin 13 or cleric 8 (goddess grants it as an extra domain spell). Or bard with magical secrets.

[edit: DM clarified that entering the goddess’s service as a Valkyrie requires being a spellcaster, with the potential to eventually be able to cast 4th level spells. ]

Cleric seems to offer enough to get AG barbarian and echo knight to useful levels, and also offers some flexibility in preparing useful spells that don’t require a spell attack or saving throw.

edit: it’s not an urgent thing. Getting the main parts of AG and EK synergy will probably be a higher priority.

further edit. I guess EK 10 might be a good goal, and fully tanking an entire hit would be far superior to AG 6 ability to reduce damage. And Cleric 7 would get the requisite 4th level spells. So AG3/ EK 10/ cleric 7 could work.

But that leaves some if the better stuff for very late in the campaign (we are likely to go to 20). Valkyrie will probably be a retirement plan, anyway.

Okay, so you need 4th level spellcasting to be a Valkyrie. Could you clarify what you need the AG/Fighter parts for, fluffwise? (Or any other build goals you might have?) You said you wanted to be a 'helpful, protective person who makes sure their allies don't die, and isn't interested in too much straight damage.' A straight Cleric (Grave or otherwise) would be great at that and get you to the "Valkyrie" requirement quickly. But I presume you have some reason you want the AG/Echo bit; could you clarify what that is?

Here are some ideas you may or may not find interesting:
- Eldritch Knight (11 or 12)/Death Cleric (8 or 9) is a useful combo for a tank. Grave is less synergistic with martials than Death or Peace.
- Hexblade can get ghost buddies to hang out with (from their L6 feature) while being a gish with full-caster-ish progression.
- Warlock/Barbarian is a thing.
- Straight Death Cleric can make their 'echo' Spiritual Weapon smite people like a bloody Paladin. And Clerics in general have Spirit Guardians. And Summon Celestial. Lots of things to represent having friends on the other side.
- Straight Peace Cleric is actually really damn good at necromancy + defending people (in fact, I daresay it's better at necromancy than Grave or Death). You can make your minions jump in to negate hits for people and then hit back hard, while seriously locking up enemy options.
- You could still cram AG/Echo/Cleric together if you want, but if you go that route you probably don't want to be taking both of the martial classes past 5 (the Extra Attack won't stack, etc), and there are other Cleric subclasses (Peace, Death) that would likely still fit the flavor and synergize better with the other classes than Grave.

[Hiro Quester]

Those are all very interesting and well though out options. Thanks.

My original idea was something combining AG barbarian and Echo knight (in part inspired by the Ancestral Avenger idea). Mostly because it sounds fun, and both can play up the spiritual guardian theme.

Then I saw Treantmonk’s version, combined with war wizard, and thought that beyond EK3 and AG6 getting the main synergy running, there are indeed options for fitting in another class with flavor.

And our party so far has no cleric. And grave cleric seemed to also fit the idea of ancestral guardians, but also I hit on the idea of making the AG barbarian’s tattoos with ink made from his friends and family. So I am literally a grave, and a shaman barbarian, whose ancestors can travel with him and come out to help. Plus spiritual weapon and spirit guardians can also be flavored as ancestral guardians, if I’m not raging.

And then I read in the details of our world’s pantheon, that the goddess of death has female champions that are like Valkyries, with “great power to end lives”, and who are granted a black Pegasus to ride as an ally and symbol of her power. (So to-be-determined awesomeness later on.). And my character was already heading in that direction (I just had to make the character female).

This goddess’s whole thing is ensuring that people die when their time is right, and that those who have died get safely to the afterlife. So those causing harm might get to the afterlife sooner (so their punishment in the afterlife is lessened). And that those who have good works to do might linger or return to the mortal realm if they are needed (she is patient; they will die eventually). Plus she hates undead. That whole theme seems to feel about right for a cleric/tank.

But we cannot take the Death domain (that is claimed by a fallen, very evil, god). And peace domain requires a total non-combatant pacifist who is only a healer (DM ruled it’s too powerful otherwise).

So serving this goddess as a warrior, with a little grave cleric, just sort of emerged as the synergy of backstory, party needs, world and pantheon details, and some interesting story hooks the DM hinted he can build from this. E.g he built on this that my family’s spirits are bound to the mortal realm, and my character can get the goddess of death’s help to enable them to pass to the afterlife. Plus the possibility of becoming a Valkyrie if I serve her well and pass her trials.

And there is the added bonus of the challenge of roleplaying a low intelligence high wisdom character. I think I can base some of her personality on Oona. (Bonus for the possibility of a nihilistic Pegasus mount one day.)

So a chunk of the campaign is going to be driven, story wise, by the need to get the godess’s help to get my family to the afterlife.

So I think I’m committed to this combination, in some form. One level of cleric (officially taken at third level), with two levels in a martial class.

I started with barbarian for better initial HP, and because the party will need me to be a tank more than a damage dealer at lower levels. I’ll build fighter on top of that, I think.

So now I’m thinking that barbarian 2/cleric1/ AG barbarian to 3/ then EK fighter 3 might be a good start, and get most of the build synergy running. Then leveling fighter mostly.

But that delays extra attack, which I’ll need to make sure I can land a hit to activate AG aggro and resistance. And it delays ASI. So maybe AG barb to 5is a better foundation? But then the 6th-level ability to mitigate damage with spirit shield is right there.

Starting with fighter 2/cleric1/fighter to 5/then AG barb 3, then more fighter, then more cleric would also work, with ancestor first as echo and not delay getting extra attack or ASI. But that seems a more damage-dealer first approach, without the AG’s ability to tank by attracting aggro and granting resistance to my allies.

But I don’t see a good character-driven way to only take barbarian eventually rather than first.

Somehow it feels more like more room for natural character growth if I start out angry (especially at myself, survivor guilt style, so I take damage for others in part as penance, but with an obligation to survive for the sake of my tribe’s souls means I won’t take that all the way).

But I’ll naturally progress into being a bit more tactical with fighter after a few levels of working out my issues and growing a bit more self acceptance and less survivor guilt.

Edit: added after sleeping on it: I guess for character growth and story purposes, I could start as fighter 2/cleric 1 and fluff the action surge and second wind as boons granted by my spiritual guardian. Then they come out to play as I develop fighter to 5. And take protection or interception fighting style to roleplay protecting my allies.

And I could just be generally angst, grieving and self-recriminating and angry, until fighter 5, then take levels in barbarian as character growth, learning to focus my anger into righteous indignation directed at those who deserve it, and channel it into tanking.

So beginning as fighter2/ Cleric 1/ fighter +3/ barbarian3 would do most of the things I want. That could work.