Need help adjudicating stealth situation

[arkieNork]

Hi everyone. I am trying to DM my first game using mostly 3.5 rules with a lot of content ported backwards from Pathfinder 1e
Need advice on how to handle the following case
Situation: an awake guard is cleaning his armor with his back turned to the rest of the barracks room. 10ft behind him are 2 cots, 5 ft apart with 2 more sleeping guards.

Player: "While standing between two cots, I dismiss Ethereal Jaunt, and being as quiet as I can, try to Coup De Grace one sleeping guard and than the other"

1. Does the awake guard get a perception check when Ethereal Jaunt is dismissed?
2. Does he get a perception check before the first Coup De Grace is complete?
3. Should the first coup de grace immediately trigger combat and alert the awake guard or should there be a perception check to see if he hears his ally getting killed.
4. If perception check to the above, should it be some set DC or an opposed stealth check?

or is this all completely off track and I should just claim the that since player is not in cover the guard immediately detected him as soon as Ethereal Jaunt was dismissed?

[zlefin]

I don't actually know; I'd just go with what seems to make sense to me, in addition to telling the players that I don't know, and explain what I think seems reasonable, and ask them if they have input.

I'd go with this:
Jaunt doesn't say anything about making noise when you appear, so I'd assume it's pretty silent, not much of a sudden gust of wind by displacement or anything. I'd give the awake guard a roll to see if they notice the person appearing, but there'd be a significant penalty to the guard for being distracted and not looking that way; I note they're not in the middle of guard duty either, so they won't be notably alert. The sleeping guards would also get a roll at an even worse penalty; but sleeping people can notice airflow and sound, so they should at least get a roll of some sort.

I'd say if the first stealth check passes, then you have some rolls to see if you can keep the coup de grace silent; this is a much harder roll to make, I'm not sure how big a penalty to apply, but killing someone without making noise isn't so easy; if you get it wrong the person could yelp in pain, so you have to both kill them in a quiet way AND prevent them from making a sudden sound. So I'd apply a large penalty to the player, maybe -20 to -30 or more; though the awake guard still has a modest penalty as well for not really being alert. It'd also depend on how the coup de grace goes; as if the target doesn't die they will certainly wake from the damage.

I'd note that whenever the awake guard notices the situation, there will likely be a surprise round.

I'd make them both opposed checks.

[Telok]

Personally:

The awake guard is distracted & not looking. If he has any unusual bonuses only the global and ones for hearing would apply. Untill he's alerted to something I'd circumstance a -2 or -5 and default to a take 10 roll.

The PC has no time pressure yet. I'd circumstance a +5 and let them take 10 untill something happens to change the situation.

Dismissing the spell probably isn't a check thing. I presume they're getting in etherially with the spell then dismissing to get back to the material plane. If either of the sleeping guards is a snorer or the awake guard is humming or something then definitely no checks here. If its practically silent as a tomb then maybe a check. The -5 & +5 should pretty much make it moot though.

The PC gets the coup try off. If its a kill make the a check without the bonus for taking it slow & careful, awake guard still gets the penalties and the sleeper still has the -20 (I think thats the standard sleeping penalty?). If it isn't a kill or the PC's check fails go into the surprise round.

Yeah, one campaign my players wandered through a barracks of sleeping ogres slaughtering them with a special giant slaying greatsword. They got all 12 or so by basically not rolling a 1 on any stealth checks. The sleeping penalty & orge stats are basically "sleep untill someone kicks them awake".

There's no problems if the PCs totally win this one. Three guards probably aren't the biggest highlight & threat of your adventure.

[Fizban]

1. Does the awake guard get a perception check when Ethereal Jaunt is dismissed?

He may or may not get a Spot check* depending on how hard you wish to rule "his back turned," could be at -4 since he's distracted doing something else, but he gets a Listen check regardless. And since you're using combined "Perception," that means he gets a check.

*You could use the Moving Between Cover rules, except they're not moving into cover. The only "cover" or "concealment" is the fact that you said the guard is facing away. You could declare that facing away is worth concealment but not "full concealment," requiring Hide vs Spot even though the guard is "facing away," because they could at any moment turn for any reason and even a tiny amount of movement caught in their peripheral vision after a slight shift (while still being 100% accurate to "back towards you") would immediately cause them to turn and see what is plainly visible.

But again, since you're using combined Perception it doesn't actually matter what the guard sees, because the PC is not magically silent.

2. Does he get a perception check before the first Coup De Grace is complete?

The check comes as soon as the PC makes any noise. Landing on the ground after plane-shifting (unless your feet were phased into the ground, they were above the ground) and breathing make noise, unless you decide they don't, but that's what Move Silently is for.

3. Should the first coup de grace immediately trigger combat and alert the awake guard or should there be a perception check to see if he hears his ally getting killed.

Assuming the guard fails to detect the PC's appearance, the PC begins their Coup de Grace, which is a full round action that cannot be completed during their "surprise" round, but the guard cannot roll initiative until they are aware of something. If the guard hears the Coup de Grace action (as the PC lines up their swing, attempts to cover the target's face to reduce noise, etc), it must logically already be in progress, and if they win initiative they could interrupt before it is completed. If the PC wins, even if they've been heard they go first and can finish the Coup de Grace, and are left with their Standard action for the turn. If you rule that beginning/making the Coup de Grace is silent, then failing the initial detection roll means the guard has no way to stop the first one.

Because they've decided to do this quietly and are not actively in combat (which could have a flat DC anywhere from -10 to 10), the PC ought to get a Move Silently check. If they fail to kill the target, because the target has been attacked they wake up, and make noise, and initiative is rolled.

If the first target is killed silently, moving to the second target may or may not involve another Move Silently roll, depending on if you think it must be rolled for every round that a creature is moving, or only if you officially move at least 5' to a new square.

There could be as many checks as:

1. Appearing from ethereal
2. Coup de Grace
3. Turn in place to next foe
4. Coup de Grace

or is this all completely off track and I should just claim the that since player is not in cover the guard immediately detected him as soon as Ethereal Jaunt was dismissed?

Thus you have learned the lesson to never declare which way anyone is facing.



I do hope this is some sort of item or other effect, rather than the 8th level Etherealness spell, 'cause if they've got the latter then I don't think guards that sleep on cots and clean armor have been appropriate for the last many levels.

[Zanos]

1. Does the awake guard get a perception check when Ethereal Jaunt is dismissed?

Yes. In fact if the position you ethereal jaunt into does not have cover relative to the guard, you can't even hide. You could rule having his back turned as cover, I suppose, but RAW you need actual cover to even attempt a hide check.

2. Does he get a perception check before the first Coup De Grace is complete?

Of course, there's someone in the room.

3. Should the first coup de grace immediately trigger combat and alert the awake guard or should there be a perception check to see if he hears his ally getting killed.

Judgement call territory. I would probably at least require an additional move silently to kill someone without anyone else noticing. Healthy people generally don't actually die all that quietly when you slit their throats or smother them or whatever, but it's a fantasy game.

4. If perception check to the above, should it be some set DC or an opposed stealth check?

Opposed stealth. The PC is trying to kill some quietly.

or is this all completely off track and I should just claim the that since player is not in cover the guard immediately detected him as soon as Ethereal Jaunt was dismissed?

You could, yes. But that's a judgement on your part of how closely you want to adhere to RAW. I think it's more fun to allow the attempt.

[Darg]

Yes. In fact if the position you ethereal jaunt into does not have cover relative to the guard, you can't even hide. You could rule having his back turned as cover, I suppose, but RAW you need actual cover to even attempt a hide check.

Low Obstacles and Cover

A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.

I'd say a bed with a guard in it and the awake guard being 10 ft away counts as cover.

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You'd roll the hide check because it is supposed to cover the random chances of maybe a head turn to relieve stiff muscles and a move silently check when they make their coup de grace as they are, well, moving themselves which makes noise. According to the rules the guard basically gets a -6 to both their rolls, but the player gets a -20 to their hide check when they make the coup de grace as they are making an attack.

If using pathfinder's stealth skill instead, it's one roll and stealth ends when you make any attack. Meaning the player is seen immediately.

Either way, mechanically a dead creature cannot act and therefor does not "thrash around" as they wake from the pain and die by drowning in their own blood.

So, if using the 3.5 rules:
1) hide check once you dismiss ethereal jaunt
2) make a move silently check and hide check (-20) opposed by the awake guard and other sleeping guard (-6 and -5, 10ft for -1 and -5 for being distracted; spot check only if they woke up from the noise) from the coup de grace action.
3) If they some how succeed in not alerting the other guards, repeat 2 minus the sleeping guard.

If pathfinder rules:
1) Stealth check
2) Stealth breaks from coup de grace which alerts the awake guard and wakes the sleeping guard.

Edit: The guard can't take 10 while being distracted.