Need Assistance for Core Dragon Disciple

[frankbelmont]

Hello fellow dnd enthusiasts. It's time for me to roll a new character and once again I rolled terrible stats but I want to make a dragon disciple anyway cause I want to try this prestige for the first time.
Now I have researched this prestige and I know a lot about its problems but I don't care. So please give me your insights and experience to make a viable core (PHB,DMG,MM1) Dragon Disciple with the following rolled stats 15/13/11/11/10/8 for a level7 PC. Mainly I want suggestions on which order to put the stats, possible feats and multiclass options till level5 cause I want to enter the prestige at level6. ( I don't want suggestions like choose this feat from this other book or use the pathfinder one or play the half dragon template. I want 3 main books build suggestions and even core items to help the build. Oh and no subraces only the standard ones.

[Glimbur]

Be a barbarian/ranger/fighter, as you do in core to grab the front loaded class features. Dip sorcerer. Take Dragon Disciple and enjoy the stat boosts. Might be tricky to arrange the skill requirements, but human will help with that and is a good race anyway. Though there are fewer feats in just core, getting further down a fear chain sooner is still nice. Tripping might be a nice way to leverage the +str though it gets harder in mid to high levels depending if your DM likes big monsters.

Tl;dr pretend Dragon Disciple is a PrC for melee fighters not spellcasters.

[Buufreak]

That was going to be my suggestion. 15 is plenty to swing a weapon, and even the 11 is good enough to cast first level spells. You are 7th level, so you get an ability point, you can do that to get an extra hp/HD (wow you rolled alot of odd numbers) but for the most part build strong, get items for more strength, hit the rage button and swing for the fences.

[TheStranger]

Tl;dr pretend Dragon Disciple is a PrC for melee fighters not spellcasters.

It’s not pretend. DD is basically ten dead levels for casters, but actually not bad for martials willing to dip a caster class to get in. I played a very effective Barbarian-based DD once by mostly ignoring the fact that I could cast spells and enjoying an absurd Strength score while raging. Basically everything DD gives you makes you a better melee brute, so you need to lean hard into that instead of trying to find a way to make the casting useful.

I’m always partial to Barbarian in melee builds because raging universally makes you better at killing things with sharp metal. As a primary melee fighter, you should be full attacking every round, so not being able to cast while raging doesn’t matter. So I’d go in with two levels of Barbarian, two of Bard, and either one or two of Fighter depending on how much I wanted the bonus feat before starting DD. I think Bard is a slightly better dip than Sorcerer even though you probably want two levels of it because casting in light armor is useful. If you don’t need bonus feats or don’t want to rage, you could go in with Bard 4/Melee 1 to get 2nd level spells without losing any more BAB. That might leave you a little behind the curve in melee, though, and 2nd level spells aren’t going to be super-relevant too far into mid levels. Plus with your stats you’d have to use an ability increase or an item to get your CHA up to 12. So personally I’d prioritize melee and not worry about it. Maybe pick up a few more Bard levels after DD, but you really want to be going with martial classes there too.

Barb 2/ Fighter 2/Sorc 1 is also a viable entry, although you’ll probably want armor and I don’t think there’s a good ASF workaround in core. So you might end up either risking the ASF chance or not casting at all.

Stat-wise, I’d put the 15 in Str because you’re a melee brute. For your 13, you’re probably looking at either Dex or Con, although not being able to access the Combat Expertise tree hurts a little and I don’t think you’d be wrong to put the 13 in Int and build a tripper.

[Troacctid]

It’s not pretend. DD is basically ten dead levels for casters, but actually not bad for martials willing to dip a caster class to get in. I played a very effective Barbarian-based DD once by mostly ignoring the fact that I could cast spells and enjoying an absurd Strength score while raging. Basically everything DD gives you makes you a better melee brute, so you need to lean hard into that instead of trying to find a way to make the casting useful.

Yeah, the book says right out that most dragon disciples are barbarians, fighters, or rangers. It's not pretending to be a class for casters.

With your statline, I'd put 15 in Str and 13 in Dex. Focus on the physical stats.

Feather fall, true strike, and ventriloquism all have no somatic components. If you use a combination of them as your spells known, you can wear whatever armor you like and not have to worry about arcane spell failure. So I personally would go Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1 and plan to wear heavy armor.

Feats! Power Attack is a must-have combo with true strike. Combat maneuver feats such as Improved Grapple and Improved Trip are a fighter's bread and butter. Two-Weapon Fighting lets you get in extra attacks, which as a Power Attacker would presumably either be with armor spikes or unarmed strikes. (A double weapon would also work. Who knows, maybe someday you'll find a staff of power to thwack people with.) Multiattack is going to become a must-have once you have your claw-claw-bite. Craft Magic Arms and Armor lets you save money on gear (the caster level of your breath weapon qualifies you for it at level 8). Combat Reflexes is good if you use a reach weapon. Cleave is good if you're the party's main damage-dealer and expect to get a lot of killing blows. Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative are decent fillers if you ever can't think of what else to get.

For items, you want utility wands to take advantage of your ability to use them without a check. You also want simple stat boosts (abilities, saves, armor, weapon, etc.) to improve your combat effectiveness. At high levels, you might pick up a cool staff to gain some proper magical power, a quicken rod for your true strikes, or a fancy ring that gives you something nice like invisibility or free movement.

[Elves]

Be a half-dragon and play a martial class. Dragon disciple's spellcasting does nothing so you have to play it as a martial class anyway, and you will end up with 1 higher BAB (no need for a caster dip) and more class features if you just take the template.

[frankbelmont]

I think a Human Grappler build seems the best. The tripper is interesting but my stats are not optimal. I was thinking a Barb1/Bard2/Fighter2 but while it provides a nice synergy and a good party buff, I don't have dexterity and wearing full plate seems the best choice. Heavy armor ****s up my movement speed and spellcasting and I don't want to spent 10k of 19k for mithral. Maybe go Fighter4? Anyway does anyone know how grappling works with natural attacks? Should I buy an amulet of mighty fists to bypass magic damage resistance (we don't have someone to cast magic fang)? Maybe take two levels in Monk?

[Seward]

Some basic rules stuff.

Natural attacks don't mix well with grappling, barring somehow getting improved grab or somehow getting so high a grapple check that you can eat a -20 penalty to act as if not grappled. In a grapple you can only combine unarmed strike, light weapon or grapple checks with iterative attacks, including anything you might get from haste or similar effects. You get one and only one attack if you use a natural weapon, you can pick any weapon you have (claw or bite) but you don't get iteratives.


Basically a DD is a martial who swaps BAB for physical ability bonuses (str most notably, but natural armor is helpful and the natural attacks usually boost full attack damage at least a little, and you get a con bonus too eventually). Late on you get flight with wings as well, which can be nice at L14+, blindsense in the mid levels can make blindfighting worth taking, etc. Good skill list but crappy skill points.

The most attacks a DD can do with natural attacks is to combine a monk flurry (iterative+1+haste -2 to hit) with three secondary natural attacks (claw claw bite). All of these work with power attack at 1-1 basis and multiattack can reduce those secondary penalties to -2 or -0 around level 9 if you spend your L6 and L9 feats just on multiattack/improved multiattack. If going down this road, Monk2/Duskblade1/fighter2/DD10 works pretty well, although paladin2 or ranger2 might work instead of the fighter levels. If you can work in an alignment shift to nonlawful, monk1/duskblade1//barbarian1/fighter2 gets a bit more oomph if you also take extra rage when you take the barbarian level. Why fighter levels? You will get no feats after level 3 without them until level 12, and if you go the barbarian route, you need power attack and extra rage as 2 feats, leaving you zero without a source of bonus feats. Note that this approach lets you grapple effectively against targets appropriate to grapple. Pick a half-orc or wood elf to get your starting str to 17, all statbumps to strength. Your AC will suck, so have a plan for that. Barbarian level also opens up the Spirit totem which lets you charge and full attack, but shock trooper will be off the table till L12 and your feats will get tied down in that. Duskblade level is there as it gives you full bab, option for heavy armor and you can choose spells like "stand' or "swift xp retreat" which are verbal only and can be cast without spell failure or interfering with your killing stuff by tearing them apart (swift action). The extra spell slots you get from DD are actually helpful when you have good swift action L1 spells.

There's a spelldancer build that doesn't have the alignment shift problems monk/barbarians have but also doesn't get the monk flurry or the bonus feat for improved grapple.

With this build you itemize with amulet of natural attacks, as it works on UA+all natural weapons even if it is expensive. Add other stuff to get past material/alignment DR (there is a ring that defeats DR adamantine, gloves that defeat DR silver, a helmet (if you are good) that defeats DR good. Carry a 2handed cold iron weapon for the fey and really strong demons as a backup). A downside of this approach is that spells like Greater Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Fang are inefficient past the +1 level.

Another popular approach is just to do something like Barbarian2/Fighter2/sor1, get a big honking 2h weapon and do a 2h-sword+bite routine. It is more feat friendly, opens up things like shock trooper sooner. I still recommend spells like swift xp retreat+feather fall for your sorc spells, stuff that doesn't need more caster levels, uses a swift action and is helpful even in armor. The downside of this is compared to the purely unarmed approach above is that you have to invest heavily in weapons and your natural attacks will be relatively weak and seldom used.

For pure core-only, with these stats, your options are limited 15/13/11/11/10/8
The DD requirements are hard for a low intelligence character.

Wood Elf (monster manual) (monk levels first for skill points+multiclass restrictions)
Str 17, dex 12, con 11 int 9 wis 8 cha 11
first statbump str, L8 statbump to con. You can swap int (dropping to 6) and wisdom (raising to 11) without a problem, adding +1 will save for cost of 8 skill points. In later life if you add a wisdom item, this might be a decent trade, but I like a few more skill points on my characters, especially as dragon disciple will only give you 1 skill point a level with either choice.

Take Kn Arcane each level and speak draconic at L1 This gives you 15 monk skill points and one sorcerer skill point for something else.

Monk 1 blindfighting, improved grapple (bonus feat)
Monk 2 deflect arrows (bonus feat)
Monk 3 Power Attack
Monk 4
sorcerer1 feather fall, truestrike (heavy armor compatable spells, but you can't flurry. Lets you switch hit)
DD1 Multiattack
DD2 (adds claw claw bite routine)

At level 7, you have 20 strength, and a full attack sequence that looks like this with an amulet of natural attacks and gauntlets of ogre power. Any cash you have left over should be spent on defensive items (amulet of health, cloak of resistance, maybe a decent set of armor)

9-9 d8+7 (UA flurry) 8-8 d4+4 (claws) 7 d6+4 (bite) with power attack adding 1-1 to each of these.
You can also attack +11 d6+7 9-9 d4+4 without the flurry or 2H weapon attack with MW weapon for 10 wpn+10 8 d6+4 bite

You've got a grapple check of +14, and can flurry-grapple at +12/12 doing d8+7.

Normally deflect arrows is a stupid choice compared to combat reflexes but with dex of only 12, you only get one extra attack, and with an unarmed fighting style and low AC, you might sometimes find making an arrow hit go away useful. Swap combat reflexes instead if you like carrying a reach weapon until close combat then dropping it for your flurry/nat weapon combo. Blindfight is there as a rare bab+0 available feat that is core and can combine with later blindsense, but you could take anything else you like, such as improved initiative or whatever.

Make no mistake, your stat choices kinda suck, and this guy will be more fragile than a point-buy character in terms of AC and hitpoints, although saves will be half-decent. Armor is pretty attractive, you don't get a wisdom bonus to AC anyway, so you mostly lose fast movement and flurry. Get a horse, a military saddle, a lance and use it to get around outdoors, maybe switching to mage armor when going indoors/underground for close quarters combat.

[MultitudeMan]

Iron Chef XXXIV covered this one, and the Dracotaur both scored well (it came second), and has some tips for adapting to SRD only under "The point of the build".

[Troacctid]

I think a Human Grappler build seems the best. The tripper is interesting but my stats are not optimal. I was thinking a Barb1/Bard2/Fighter2 but while it provides a nice synergy and a good party buff, I don't have dexterity and wearing full plate seems the best choice. Heavy armor ****s up my movement speed and spellcasting and I don't want to spent 10k of 19k for mithral. Maybe go Fighter4? Anyway does anyone know how grappling works with natural attacks? Should I buy an amulet of mighty fists to bypass magic damage resistance (we don't have someone to cast magic fang)? Maybe take two levels in Monk?

Like I said, you can just pick verbal-only spells and you won't need to worry about arcane spell failure. But if you do go bard, then sure, I guess it makes sense to wear light armor.

Grappling is a solid choice. You won't use it in every fight, but it gives you some game against spellcasters. It's also a good use for your second iterative attack.

Definitely buy the amulet—you have three natural attacks to use it with, so it's efficient.

The most attacks a DD can do with natural attacks is to combine a monk flurry (iterative+1+haste -2 to hit) with three secondary natural attacks (claw claw bite).

You can't use other natural attacks when flurrying. It has to be monk weapons only.

[Particle_Man]

Be a half-dragon and play a martial class.

Isn’t half-dragon specifically banned in the prerequisite for dragon disciple?

Anyhow, the only minor thing I would add is if you are dipping sorcerer, you could max out your Fort save by going ranger/barbarian/fighter/npc warrior/sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. I put ranger first because skill points are nice. If you want to keep pushing up that Fort save get a rat familiar. Get the great fortitude feat, perhaps. This pushes your Fort save high enough you could use poisons on manufactured weapons and not worry too much about the one in twenty chance of poisoning yourself.

Since spells are not your main thing you might consider half-orc for more str or dwarf for, well, everything. 😀

In that case you would put the 13 into chr and let it become 11 (all you need for first level spells) and either have a str of 17 (half-orc) or con of 13 (dwarf).

For the dragon side I would suggest a fire-breather. With a 1/day breath weapon you can usually find someone to breathe on that is not fire resistant or immune and at level 15 total immunity to fire is nice for a martial character.

Also if you can get some wands (ranger and sorcerer) and later on, a staff, that would help. You also could get craft arms and armour to help boost your protection a bit (the base pluses don’t require other spells). But that depends on how generous your dm is with downtime and how stingy your dm is with magic items. Is it worth making your own?

[Thurbane]

I've got a character lined up as a replacement if my current character dies. It's basically a core-only game, so it's looking like Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 2... eventually going for Barbarian 1/Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian +5.

Mainly a melee character, with a few tricks and stuff from Bard and DD...

[Seward]

BardBarian is a strong entry to DD. Nothing wrong with that approach, although in core only the lack of extra bardsong and extra rage does limit it. Arcane utility is strong and you get some skill points to play with. With an array of 15 13 11 11 10 8 though, and a half-orc -2 to charisma it will not work as well.

You can't use other natural attacks when flurrying. It has to be monk weapons only.

You can always add secondary natural attacks to any iterative sequence. The iterative flurry is restricted to monk weapons. So is a rapid shot (which requires at least one ranged attack), but it does not prevent a secondary bite attack in a bow volley if something is in reach. The twf iterative sequence is explicity declared not to work with flurry (unlike with rapid shot, where mixing is fine as long as at least one attack is a missile attack). Rapid shot can combine with flurry as long as one attack is a ranged monk weapon.

Flurry is one of those things that varies a lot in different editions and Pathfinder etc. The final FAQ ruling before 4e killed off 3.5 allowed iterative grapple attacks with flurry and seconary natural attacks with flurry. You can not mix primary natural attacks with any iterative attack, flurry or not, but any natural attack that is not gripping a weapon can be used as a secondary. 3.0 and Pathfinder 1E may have faq'd differently.

As an aside, twf and power attack work poorly compared to a monk flurry+secondary natural attacks, especially if you later invest in multiattack. Your offhand attacks do not benefit at all from power attack. I would stick with a 2h weapon+bite with option to drop weapon and claw-claw-bite if not using a monk flurry (or if my GM agrees with Troacctid that flurry and secondary natural attacks do not mix). Also TWF needs 15 dex, awkward in a 17.13.11.11.10.8 array, although it is possible with either ranger2 or a wood elf build if you accept a very low con, or sacrificing a fair bit of strength with some other race.

[Elves]

Isn’t half-dragon specifically banned in the prerequisite for dragon disciple?

The DD class is just the half-dragon template plus chassis (plus some worthless bonus spells) so it's better to take the template and get 7 more levels of class features.

@OP: If you don't want to take the template, consider this. In the Oriental Adventures update to 3.5, they admitted that bonus spells were a failed experiment ("experience has shown it to be unsatisfying at best") and revised a bonus spell PRC to a partial casting one. Ask your DM to do the same for dragon disciple. Have it grant +1 casting advancement at each level the published version gets a bonus spell. If following the same formula as the revised OA one, you'd also remove the casting at 1st level, for a 6/10 casting class. It's weak but no longer junk.

[Seward]

The DD class is just the half-dragon template plus chassis (plus some worthless bonus spells) so it's better to take the template and get 7 more levels of class features.

DD has D12 hit die, 2 good saves and a good skill list, where half dragon adds la+3, which in practice means you are very fragile as a Pc and are down 3hd for effects like color spray or blasphemy, which can be problematic. It also allows wings on a non-large humanoid, unlike half-dragon.

I would take a Level 7 DD over a level 4 half-dragon, and it is no contest at L15 dd vs L12 half-dragon. This in spite of the template being front loaded and the PRC being back loaded.

[Elves]

DD has D12 hit die, 2 good saves and a good skill list, where half dragon adds la+3, which in practice means you are very fragile as a Pc and are down 3hd for effects like color spray or blasphemy, which can be problematic. It also allows wings on a non-large humanoid, unlike half-dragon.

If you prefer +30-40 hp and +1-2 on each save over +1 BAB and 7 levels of class features ya ain't choosin the right classes.

[lylsyly]

If it was me, CORE only:

Human for the bonus feat and extra skill point
STR 15, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA !! (Bump CHA to 12 at 4th)

Bard 1 (for the skill points) Make sure to take K:Arcana 4 and at least Perform:Oratory so you can use your Inspire Courage
Barbarian 1 for fast movement and rage 1/day
Barbarian 2 uncanny dodge for a slight survivability boost
Fighter 1 I would consider the bonus feat more valuable than trap sens +1
Bard 2 now you can have 12 in charsima so you can get first level spells and you spend the other 4 points on K:Arcana
Dragon Disciple 10 Good stuff here for a melee character even if it is medium bab. (over the course of the ten levels the +8 to STR makes up for it)
Barbarian +5 now you can rage 2/day and some more survivability boosts.

FEATS
Human Bonus = Able Learner (Any skill that is a class skill for any class you have Max ranks = ECL+3 and you only have to spend 1 for 1 even if it is currently cross class
!st = Improved initiative (your probably the fastest character in the party and going first is always nice)
3rd = Power Attack
6th = Cleave and for the rest whatever you want

Go for either 2H a falchion or a reach weapon and spiked guantlet

SPELLS
Bard 2 gets 3 0th per day and 5 known / Flare and Light don't care about armor - Read Magic, Detect Magic and Presidigitation are out of combat (Light too actually).
With a 12 in charisma you qualify for a bonus 1st spell and 2 spells known - Featherfall and Ventriloquism are the only core 1st level bard spells with a somantic component. Featherfall can be a lifesaver but I would probably stick with Cure Light Wounds and Idenify for out of combat utility since My combat actions should be spent on beating thins ;-)

At level 20 you'll have 17 BAB, Fort = 11, Ref = 8, Will = 11

Or Human with Able Learner and go Sorc 1 Barabarian 2 and then Fighter 2 but you are going to be spending a lot of skill points on Knowledge arcana when you want to be buying listen spot tumble balance maybe even intimidate

Just my 2cp

[Thurbane]

Unfortunately, Able Learner is RoD, not core.

Other than that, looks pretty decent.

[lylsyly]

I keep forgetting that for some reason. Thanks for pointing it out. Just makes the build a little harder :-(

[Darg]

If you prefer +30-40 hp and +1-2 on each save over +1 BAB and 7 levels of class features ya ain't choosin the right classes.

That depends. Level 10 DD doubles up on the stat bonuses and you get wings even if medium or smaller.

~~~~~~~~~~

My personal favorite combo is getting the Blood-Spiked Charger feat from PHBII. Combined with the Driving Attack feat from the same book, and you can have some really funny moments with some ridiculous bull rushes.