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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Sep 2017

    Default Need tips for my Paladin

    Hey,

    I am creating a Paladin for the first time and need some help. First of all:
    • In all that years, I learned that I really need a character that is versatile in combat and has good damage output.
    • I like min-maxing.
    • Realistically, I am planning to play this character until level ~12-15.
    • We are using almost all optional rule books that are reasonable for Faerūn.



    Considering options:

    1. How to early get a use for my Bonus Action? And should I play with Polearm Mastery?
      I noticed, this seems really critical, as the Paladin doesn't have much options for his Bonus Action (BA). So, Polearm Mastery (PM) comes into play.

    2. Should I use a shield or a 2H-Polearm for reach?
      • I could go for a Spear + Shield + Dueling Style
        • Pros: +2 Armor, +2 Dmg.
        • Cons: No reach to trigger a lot of reaction attacks
      • or use a 2H-Polearm + GWF or Defense
        • Pros: Reach to trigger reaction attacks w ith PA(!), higher Damage
        • Cons: -1/-2 armor compared to 1H/Shield (depending of the chosen Fighting Style).
    3. Which race: Human (Variant) vs. Aasimar?
      • Human: Extra Feat, worse stats (2x +1), extra skill
      • Aasimar: No Feat, but better stats (+2/+1), Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation



    (My) Conclusion:

    Finally, I am always ending up with these "rough character sketches" of an early level 5 character:

    Build 1: Aasimar, 2H Polearm Master
    • STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
    • Race: Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation
    • Fighting Style: Defensive Style (+1 Armor)
    • ASI: Polearm Mastery (for Bonus Action + Reach)


    Build 2: Human (Variant), 2H Polearm Master
    • STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 13(ASI: +1), WIS 10, CHA 15+1
    • Race Feat: Polearm-Mastery (for Bonus Action + Reach)
    • Fighting Style: Defensive Style (+1 Armor)
    • ASI: Resilient CON


    Build 3: Aasimar, 1H-Polearm Duelist
    • STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
    • Race: Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation
    • Fighting Style: Dueling (+2 Damage)
    • ASI: Polearm Mastery (for Bonus Action, but no reach!)



    My Questions:

    1. Did I forget to take anything into account?
    2. What would you prefer/recommend and why?
    3. Which Oath would you go for?


    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by bbrown12; 2022-10-09 at 10:06 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    It appears that you have pretty much already answered your own question. Your "rough sketches" are biasing you towards an Assimar using a reach weapon and Polearm Mastery. Go with that.

    Smite spam with a PAM paladin is already pushing the upper envelope of damage with the class. There are options that can take it further (such as hexblade dip) and there are oath choices that have mathematically superior damage output. Min-maxing can be very effective when applied accurately but you don't have control over the choices of the DM and other players. A lot of the "optimal" decisions have conditional dependencies (a big one being "dead characters cant deal damage")

    I would advise making your oath and fighting style choice depending on the rest of your party. Are you the only melee? how do you handle flying enemies and those that also have reach? Does the party have a someone to tackle healing and support? Does that party have a weakness to swarms? As a player, are you going to be bored and have nothing to do in non-combat situations?

    Fighting Style Question:
    The Blessed warrior fight style is unlikely to provide any significant combat boost to you (and requires sacrificing a relevant one) but having the guidance cantrip can be a wonderful benefit (and contribution) to the party (and you) outside of combat. Is that important enough to you to make it worth considering?

    Paladin Oath question:
    Here is a link that compares the various oaths in 4 different categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Roleplay).
    https://blackcitadelrpg.com/paladin-oaths-ranked-5e/

    That being said, does roleplaying flavor/fluff matter much to you? As a race, Assimar have angelic origins. Regardless of effectiveness, an Oath of Vengeance paladin gains wings at later levels, its kinda suited for a character trying to get in touch with their racial roots.

    Based on the guide Oath of Vengeance is the highest offensive potential subclass. Oath of Conquest is weaker but can lock down swarms (and abuse reach weapons with the level 7 feature).
    Last edited by windgate; 2022-08-15 at 01:19 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Hey,

    thanks for your answer! Yeah, you seem right. I already prefer one of those "sketches". ;)

    I thought that:

    • 1H + Shield will have less attacks (because of the missing reach), lacks of damage and only has "only"+1 armor (compared to Defensive Style, what could be the golden mean). So, I would prefer one of the 2H variants.
    • Comparing the 2H variants on level 8, both have the same stats. Human has a CON saving throw (from Resilient). On the other hand, Aasimar offers A LOT of useful racial feats, what I prefer. And it offers much more RP-potential than Human.
    • All in all, I tend to go for the 2H-Aasimar-PA-Master.

    We have two beginners, which are playtesting. Unfortunately, the group composition isn't that clear at the moment.

    I didn't know the Blessed Warrior. Sounds interesting. If we have no cleric later on, I could imagine picking that. My total armor (wearing Plate Mail later on) would "only" be 18. Is that enough for a melee?


    And I got a questions concerning the Aasimar rules. Which one would you prefer - the older ones (VGtM) or the newer ones (MotM)? They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Clestial Revelation.

    • VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
    • MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.


    At the moment, we are playing without MotM. Although the Damage output is much higher, I hate "wasting" an Action (and doing nothing else in a round) to "activate" Celestial Revelation. What do you think?

    I will have a look for the Oaths! Thanks! :)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    If you're playing with newbies, I'd probably steer you away from Oath of Vengeance. That's a subclass that will absolutely steal the show, particularly when optimized. I'd encourage you to look for something that can grant extra boons to your party, which a number of the Oaths can do. If you're looking to be a powerful polearm-wielding tank, though, Oath of Conquest is very much where you want to be. Paladin Oaths are so flavorful that you should probably pick one or two you're interested in early on and build out from there.

    For feats/ASIs, I find that Res(Con) isn't necessary on a Paladin since their Aura boosts all their saves. A +5 to +8 should be more than sufficient for more of your play and proficiency is a low priority. By the same measure, Paladins are actually pretty comfortable dumping Wisdom. Proficiency+Aura means their Wisdom saves will be excellent no matter what. All this goes to say that for Build 2, I'd probably rather drop Wis to 8 to round Con up to 14 and free up the ASI.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrown12 View Post
    • 1H + Shield will have less attacks (because of the missing reach), lacks of damage and only has "only"+1 armor (compared to Defensive Style, what could be the golden mean). So, I would prefer one of the 2H variants.
    • Comparing the 2H variants on level 8, both have the same stats. Human has a CON saving throw (from Resilient). On the other hand, Aasimar offers A LOT of useful racial feats, what I prefer. And it offers much more RP-potential than Human.
    • All in all, I tend to go for the 2H-Aasimar-PA-Master.
    Comparing a +1 AC to +damage might be counter intuitive and mathematically complicated. Damage scales linearly and avoidance via AC arguably doesn't.

    A troll is a CR 5 creature (average difficulty for a level 5 party)
    The troll has a +7 to hit.

    Against a character in chain mail with no shield (or fighting Style) the troll has a 60% chance to hit you

    Wearing a shield (instead of a 2h weapon): it drops to 50%
    Add in Defensive fighting: 45%

    This works out to be an almost 30 something percent reduction in average taken taken. You can also add in spells (blessing of faith) and Magic armor / shields to pump the reduction even further.

    A good counter argument to all this is that a dead enemy cant attack you.

    Edit: as for the race thing, it looks like you are choosing between a bunch of small bonuses you can use reliably or instead a decent defense again certain spells/effect with an unknown occurrence rate. Honestly I would just go with Assimar here, the features are something flavorful that you like and appreciate. The human feat is a boost to a dice roll.
    Last edited by windgate; 2022-08-15 at 04:24 PM. Reason: wrong +attack on troll.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    You know your game and DM better than we do, so you're the expert here. That said, I've been playing a PAM paladin/bard for about a year now, and I would generally recommend the 1H+shield with dueling fighting style. The +2 damage means you're dealing more damage on average than a glaive, and I can't think of a situation where the glaive's reach would actually made a difference in play. In my experience, if you're not building specifically for the reach, e.g., PAM+sentinel shenanigans, it's mostly irrelevant. Glaive does allow for GWM down the road, but (a) think about when you'd realistically get that, and (b) consider how much you gain from it relative to getting something else. But that's my game: maybe in your combats, or in your group, the reach is a much bigger issue.

    Regarding the choice of MotM aasimar vs. classic, I highly recommend the MotM version. The amount you gain from having your transformation be on a BA rather than an action is huge, and means that over the course of most fights, you actually end up ahead in terms of damage, despite the lower per-attack damage boost (nevermind what else you could have done with that action).

    Finally, you can't really go wrong with your oath, especially since the optional feature Harness Divine Power gives you a universally good use for your channel divinity (moar spell slots = moar smites). Vengeance is obviously very good, with a good CD and good oath spells. But every oath has something great going for it, like crown's CD to control the battlefield and access to spirit guardians (the value of which can't be overstated). In my game we often have big combat areas so my paladin can't quite reach the enemies in one turn, leaving me a free turn to activate my devotion CD, at which point I just don't miss for that entire fight (devotion's aura is also a big FU to the DM when they try to charm you or your allies, which is just delightful). But at the end of the day, the base paladin is strong enough that you really can't go wrong.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Paladins are actually pretty comfortable dumping Wisdom. Proficiency+Aura means their Wisdom saves will be excellent no matter what. All this goes to say that for Build 2, I'd probably rather drop Wis to 8 to round Con up to 14 and free up the ASI.
    I agree with this.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Going on tangent. If I were to take the resilient feat on a paladin for anything it would be for dexterity.

    Forced movement while mounted subjects you to to a DC 10 dexterity saving throw. Failing that while riding a Pegasus in the air could flat out kill you.
    Last edited by windgate; 2022-08-15 at 04:30 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Corran's Avatar

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    On PAM. It's generally a very good feat for paladins.

    From a character optimization perspective, how good excatly PAM is depends on your choice of oath. For example, conquest paladins have a bonus action use in spiritual weapon (for some reason), and they do need the CHA boosts and resilient con (or warcaster if multiclassing) enough, so that PAM gets a bit hit because of the competition and because of the bonus action overlap. It's still a good choice, but I'd probably pass on it (or at least seriously delay it), cause I would prefer to pick things that play better with the oath features while counting on spiritual weapon to fill the gap in action economy when necessary. Similary, with an oathbreaker while I'd very much want an off hand attack to keep the damage bonuses stacking, I'd probably choose twf instead of spending a feat on PAM, for one because I would be still after cha bumps and sentinel before even looking at anything else like PAM or concentration bosters, for second because I'd still face some bonus action dilemmas (eg animate dead), which dont make spending heavily for bonus action attacks ideal (since you can get them cheap with twf, while still allowing to switch to a shield for a more defensive approach which will often be necesary because of how AC bonuses synergize with disadvantage from frightened along with the need to often stick close to enemies in the hope of preventing them (sentinel -extra synergy thanks to IDS and undead minions who annoy enemies, most likely by trying to keep them inside your dreadful aura) escaping your dreadful aura.

    From an optimization perspective, a lot depends on how you want or have to approach combat encounters. For example, I may know that with a STR based PAM paladin of some specific oath (say vengeance) I am better on paper compared to if I was dex based. But will that be true in practice? Maybe the party is very well suited to using a stealthy approach, or maybe the adventures that the dm is using really ask for a stealthy approach. In which case being a tin can and/or lacking a decent ranged attack may be not worth the 10 points or so of extra melee dpr that PAM would bring into the table. Or maybe I do stick with a STR approach with the mind of playing more of a backseat role when stealth is necessary, and then maybe instead of PAM I am focusing on something else (eg on a feat that gives me athletics expertise, which could be the main reason I chose to to remain STR based - cause lacking the means to grapple/shove as a party can have you missing on very good opportunities, or on things that would help me perform better when if I take off the heavy armor - cause no one took PWT, eg magic initiate for BB, chill touch and longstider for either a ranged or a hit and run apporach; or I play a small race and thus potentially miss on heavy weapons just so I can benefit from my mount's mobility more often).

    ==========================================

    On reach.
    With only one reaction per round it wont be all that often that a 10' reach will allow you more OA's attacks than a 5' reach would. At least that's not the most accurate way to compare these.

    Let me put the comparison in a way that makes more sense to me. A 10' reach means that sometimes you will be able to hit an enemy with impunity. Since a whip is easily accessible, I'll further restrict this to doing it against enemies who are engaged with allies of yours (so it's not that they wont be attacking, just that they wont be attacking you). Is this good or bad. It depends on how well you are built to defend against attacks compared to that ally of yours who's taking the hits). How often will you be able to fight in 5' wide corridors while having a much better tank (or two) compared to you?

    The other benefit is that a reach will allow you more often to hit and run. A little (or a lot) of redundancy here with your mount (depending on how often you can use it in combat), and moreover the value of you doing hit and runs depends on how your party is set up to exploit it. Are the enemies better off trying to chase after you instead of going after your allies, and you want them to do that? Then good. In general, if defensively you are a liability instead of an asset (and to determine that you have to know what your allies are capable of, ideally what the enemies are capable of but you cannot always now that), then the reach is good. If you are a defensive asset, then the reach has a far lower potential and you probably want a shield in your off hand (to further boost your defensive qualities).

    ==================================

    Race
    Some oaths/builds rely a lot on a few feats and on stat increases. Honestly most of them do. I'd probably stick with a vhuman/clinegae just for the extra feat and the faster feat progression. Maybe I'd be drawn to a race with darkvision if every other character had it and if I thought missing on it would be hurtful and if there was not another reliable way to get it (eg someone with access to the darkvision spell). Though I have not taken a good look at the new races, so there are probably some hidden gems there that might outpace the extra feat. Between aasimar and vhuman I'd go vhuman though.
    Hacks!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Ask 10 different people how to build a Paly and you might get 10 different answers.

    I personally like PAM + Spear and Shield + Dueling and it qualifies as 'good damage' which is what you wanted, in part because it uses your BA. It isn't max damage, but the trade off vs. a greatsword or something is better AC. If you get Sentinel you can trade out for a Pole Arm. A lot of your damage, when you need it anyway, comes from smites, so resourceless damage only needs to be 'good'. In my experience the best Palys we've had at our table have been the ones who have stayed alive, not the ones who tried to do more damage, which brings me to my 2nd point.

    The best passive ability in the game (maybe the best ability discounting high level spells) is your 6th level aura. So bump Chr at least as much as Str. That aura the reason you're arguably the strongest tier 2 character, and you just need to be alive for the party to benefit.

    In terms of Oath, there are a lot of good ones, so I'd recommend picking one you'd like to role-play. They all have different strengths, and again you won't have everyone agree on what's the best, so might as well enjoy your character.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Angelalex242's Avatar

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    I'm a friend of sword and board...my damage is coming from smite, not raw physical. I do tend to have sentinel, however.

    I'm also an oath of ancients types who's inevitably vuman with heavy armor master. I focus on defense.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    First of all, thanks for all your detailed comments! Didn't expect so much input! Amazing!

    I picked up a lot of tips, changing my (current) decisions in some ways. I'm gonna list up those comments and elaborate on them afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by windgate View Post
    Comparing a +1 AC to +damage might be counter intuitive and mathematically complicated. Damage scales linearly and avoidance via AC arguably doesn't. [...]
    as for the race thing. [...] Honestly I would just go with Assimar here, the features are something flavorful that you like and appreciate. The human feat is a boost to a dice roll.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderEyeDr View Post
    I've been playing a PAM paladin/bard for about a year now, and I would generally recommend the 1H+shield with dueling fighting style. The +2 damage means you're dealing more damage on average than a glaive, and I can't think of a situation where the glaive's reach would actually made a difference in play.

    Regarding the choice of MotM aasimar vs. classic, I highly recommend the MotM version. The amount you gain from having your transformation be on a BA rather than an action is huge, and means that over the course of most fights, you actually end up ahead in terms of damage, despite the lower per-attack damage boost (nevermind what else you could have done with that action).
    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    From a character optimization perspective, how good excatly PAM is depends on your choice of oath. For example, conquest paladins have a bonus action use in spiritual weapon. [...] With only one reaction per round it wont be all that often that a 10' reach will allow you more OA's attacks than a 5' reach would. At least that's not the most accurate way to compare these.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    A lot of your damage, when you need it anyway, comes from smites, so resourceless damage only needs to be 'good'. In my experience the best Palys we've had at our table have been the ones who have stayed alive, not the ones who tried to do more damage, which brings me to my 2nd point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Topic I read
    Unless you have a DM who only ever includes magic weapons specifically to fit a specific PC's needs you are probably going to see cool weapons a Paladin could use that don't jive with your particular feat/fighting style combo go by before you get a polearm upgrade.A lot of stuff you didn't plan for will happen and hyper-weapon-specific builds have a major drawback.
    Okay, as said, that might change my mind, because there are just so many good reasons. Summerizing:

    • 1H+Shield (Duelist) is more tanky (+2 Def) and the basic damage is only a bit lower. The big damage comes from smite.
    • PAM: I tend to NOT take it. It's just too gear dependend (sticking to spear) and I have to trade an ASI for it. Experiences from your feedback also said that the amount of reaction attacks doesn't make that much of a difference.
    • Race - Aasimar: I found out, I like the Class Features and the possibilities it offers for RP. Therefore, I tend to go for the MotM-Version (less damage, but using Celestial Revelation as as Bonus Action).


    So, there is still the question which Oath to pick. I read through the recommended guide and there are actually three Oaths I like:

    • Oath of Conquest: This is my favourite. The Fear Aura would fit perfectly with Celestial Revelation (Fallen Aasimar). Guided Strike is also nice. Spiritual Weapon gives me a good usage for my BA.
    • Oath of Vengeance: Nice spells, but all with Concentration. Furthermore, casting a spell means less Smites, what seem to be contraproductive.
    • Oath of the Watcher: Good Channel Divinity, the Initiative Bonus feels somehow like a flat passive bonus, that's very unexciting.

    By the way: I also like the Oath of the Ancients (for the Aura), but it absolutely doesn't fit my idea of the Paladin I want to play.


    Still some questions:

    1. Bonus Action: What to do with my BA when not casting Spiritual Weapon? I have no experience, but it feels like there will be a lot of rounds where I lose my BA, because I have nothing to do with it.
    2. Fear immune: We are playing "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". I realized around 1/3 of the monsters are fear immune. Will that be a problem when going Conquest Oath? Or is that a good ratio?
    3. Resource problems: Our DM rarely allows long rests in Dungeons. Usually, only when there is a save place of we are going out to rest. I imagine having huge resource problems when Smiting. Is that ususally a problem that Paladins have or is that something that is gone after a few levels?


    Would be interested in your further thoughts! Thanks for all your help!
    Last edited by bbrown12; 2022-08-16 at 04:29 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Angelalex242's Avatar

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    For Avernus, the classic Oaths of Devotion and Ancients do carry some weight. Both of them can turn fiends with channel divinity.

    Devotion also gets that permanent pro evil at 15, along with charm immunity. Ancients gets spell resistance, though that matters most for fighting spellcasters, which generally means humans, not devils. Ancients is the oath most designed for defense, and it still gets Misty Step.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    For a sword-and-board Paladin, a common bonus action to take is the Shove action via Shield Master. Depending on how your DM reads the feat, it's something between free control and a shot at advantage every turn. Just be sure to take proficiency in Athletics or you'll have a low success rate. The other effects of Shield Master are ok-ish too.

    If you're looking at Conquest Paladin, Hexblade is a very common dip to take because it allows you to fully prioritize Charisma. The extra short rest spell slots are also quite nice, as is the bonus action selection. Access to Hex, Shield, and Eldritch Blast for a ranged backup are all extremely helpful too. 1-2 levels is all you need but you're of course free to go for more.

    A Hexblade dip is a little less common for other Paladin subclasses but it's never a bad choice.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrown12 View Post
    First of all, thanks for all your detailed comments! Didn't expect so much input! Amazing!

    I picked up a lot of tips, changing my (current) decisions in some ways. I'm gonna list up those comments and elaborate on them afterwards.







    Okay, as said, that might change my mind, because there are just so many good reasons. Summerizing:

    • 1H+Shield (Duelist) is more tanky (+2 Def) and the basic damage is only a bit lower. The big damage comes from smite.
    • PAM: I tend to NOT take it. It's just too gear dependend (sticking to spear) and I have to trade an ASI for it. Experiences from your feedback also said that the amount of reaction attacks doesn't make that much of a difference.
    • Race - Aasimar: I found out, I like the Class Features and the possibilities it offers for RP. Therefore, I tend to go for the MotM-Version (less damage, but using Celestial Revelation as as Bonus Action).


    So, there is still the question which Oath to pick. I read through the recommended guide and there are actually three Oaths I like:

    • Oath of Conquest: This is my favourite. The Fear Aura would fit perfectly with Celestial Revelation (Fallen Aasimar). Guided Strike is also nice. Spiritual Weapon gives me a good usage for my BA.
    • Oath of Vengeance: Nice spells, but all with Concentration. Furthermore, casting a spell means less Smites, what seem to be contraproductive.
    • Oath of the Watcher: Good Channel Divinity, the Initiative Bonus feels somehow like a flat passive bonus, that's very unexciting.

    By the way: I also like the Oath of the Ancients (for the Aura), but it absolutely doesn't fit my idea of the Paladin I want to play.


    Still some questions:

    1. Bonus Action: What to do with my BA when not casting Spiritual Weapon? I have no experience, but it feels like there will be a lot of rounds where I lose my BA, because I have nothing to do with it.
    2. Fear immune: We are playing "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". I realized around 1/3 of the monsters are fear immune. Will that be a problem when going Conquest Oath? Or is that a good ratio?
    3. Resource problems: Our DM rarely allows long rests in Dungeons. Usually, only when there is a save place of we are going out to rest. I imagine having huge resource problems when Smiting. Is that ususally a problem that Paladins have or is that something that is gone after a few levels?


    Would be interested in your further thoughts! Thanks for all your help!
    On the BA, I'm not sure you should view it as 'lost' if it's not used every round. In 5e a lot of classes don't have default Bonus Actions, and it's not assumed that all characters will take one every round. For most martials (unless you're picking up a 2nd weapon, which isn't usually optimal) that requires taking a feat. PAM or Shield Master are reliable. As you have said, Spiritual Weapon works as well; you're effectively trading the feat for using an expendable resource fairly regularly. Which is 'better' is probably table dependent, though at ours I'd lean towards the feat for a Paly because the number of encounters we have would burn limited spell slots in a hurry.
    As the other poster said, Shield Master can be really good if you're permitted to shove before your attack; if not it's still OK, particularly if you have other melee martials.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    I should also point out the smite spells (Wrathful smite, et all) are actually bonus actions to cast. If you like stacking spell smites with divine smites, your bonus action has a purpose.

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    You can consider wielding a Double Bladed Scimitar (DBS) and use the Defense Fighting Style. When attacking with a DBS you can attack as a bonus action for 1d4 +Str.

    A DBS does less damage than a Polearm with Polearm master feat, or dual wielding with the dual wielder fighting style but it has a niche advantage in that it does not need any feats or fighting styles to function. Thus DBS is good for a paladin build that wants to focus it's ASI to improve their Strength and Charisma to 20 asap.

    It is also great for build versatility. DBS uses no feats so you are not committed to keep using it your whole adventuring career; you can switch later to a greatsword, a Polearm, or a sword and shield, you can be mounted with lance, or whatever suits your fancy. With the optional rules in "Tasha's cauldron of everything" I believe fighting styles can be retrained as well, so you can switch Defense fighting style for a new one at a later level.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Thanks again for all those tips!

    DBS sounds nice and I like the versatility. But actually, it's again the less defense for a bit of more damage trade. And I can't imagine my paladin wielding a DBS. But thanks for the tip, tho!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    For a sword-and-board Paladin, a common bonus action to take is the Shove action via Shield Master. [...]

    If you're looking at Conquest Paladin, Hexblade is a very common dip to take because it allows you to fully prioritize Charisma. .
    If I sum the other comments up, there are four things to consider for my Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin:

    • Dipping 1-2 levels Hexblade - When would be the ideal moment/level to do that?
    • Shield Mastery - Is it skip an ASI for it? It seems to collide with the Hexblade idea, too.
    • Fey Touched - Is it worth it? At least, it seems viable to combine it with Hexblade.
    • Harness Divine Power



    Hexblade: Sounds awesome. Seems to fit my playstyle. Seems to fit into my idea of a "fallen (aasimar) paladin". Questions are:
    • When should I dip into it? I believe, there are two possibilities. First, going straight line to Paladin 7 (to get the auras) and dip into 1-2 levels afterwards. Or get the Hexblade right on level 2, follow Paladin until Paladin7/Hexblade1 and take another level of Hexblade on Level 9.
    • How much should I dumb STR? Also seems to be connected to the question, which Feat/ASI I pick on level 4. If I create a character with CON15/CHA17 I could boost both stats with an ASI. On the other hand, I could create only one odd CON/CHA stat (e. g. CON16/CHA17) and choose Fey-Touched or Resilient CON to boost one of the two.


    Fey-Touched: Offers two extra spells and works well with Hexblade. But only makes sense when going with an odd CHA score. STR 12, DEX 10, CON 15+1, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2 on level 1 would allow this.

    Shield Master: Like Crawford confirmed, it's possible to take the Bonus Action to shove between the first and the second attack of Extra Attack to get advantage. The other features are also nice. Core questions are:
    • Is it worth spending an ASI for these features?
    • Is it BETTER than Hexblade? Or: Is it worth NOT GOING Hexblade for this feat? Because I think it goes contrary to the idea of dumping STR.
    • Can it keep up with Resilient (CON) to boost an odd CON stat or Fey-Touched to boost an odd CHA stat.


    Harness Divine Power: Regaining a spell slot sounds nice. But I have to relinquish Conquering Presents and Guided Strike for it, right? Or is it an extra feature?


    Would be happy to hear your thoughts about those points. :)

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by bbrown12; 2022-08-19 at 02:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
    1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
    2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
    3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
    bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.

    To get these things you have to delay your paladin progression, which at different levels it means you are delaying different things. As to when, it's better to figure it out during the campaign. Just keep an eye out for how much you are missing on those 3 things as you level up. Ideally you take the first hexblade level when you already have warcaster and not before, so I'd say the earliest you might want to take that first hexblade level would be at character level 5 and not before (conveniently, that's also when BB and EB power up). That would be a good point to ask yourself if the aforementioned benefits are important enough to your character to delay stuff like extra attack (dpr loss can be mitigated through BB somewhat, though extra attack helps with nova delivery), auras and important spells that your party may be counting on you to get (like aura of vitality and revivify). So yeah, start playing the game and when you are closing to level 5 you'll hopefully have a pretty good idea about what you need more.

    The 2nd level of hexblade I think it's best to delay till you get more beams (so ideally taken at tier 3), though if you can put that extra control (repelling blast) to great use (eg because of allies creating harmful zones with spells), or if you really need the extra ranged dpr, or if you really need the extra boost to survivability through a second 1st level short rest rechargeable spell slot, you might as well rush it.

    If I had to do it blindly, I'd pick hexblade 1 at character level 5 (warcaster at paladin 4), and I'd pick up the second level at character leve 12 (after 3rd level spells and aura of courage -which makes the fear spell party-fliendlyish). With the last conquest paly I played I had decided to delay the hexblade dip till after paladin 9 though, because the party was being challenged more attrition-wise (along with the occassional very deadly fight) than tactically, so spells like aura of vitality, fear and revivify seemed a lot more important than what the hexblade levels would give me (even though some castings of shield would certainly have been nice to have).

    STR. I'd leave STR at 15, to avoid the penalty to speed (despite eventually getting access to a mount and to a good long range attack in EB) and to maintain a +1 (over STR 13 which is the minimum) bonus to STR checks (which you can combine wih hex and extra attack to shove and grapple).

    Shield master has a lot of theoritical synergy due to two things. First, because frightened enemies roll their checks with disadvantage (hex can cover here as well). Secondly, because thanks to your aura of conquest, once you knock them prone they cannot get up unless they save against your frightened condition (which if caused by the fear spell, it likely means until you lose concentration or until they somehow break line of sight). How good is this in practice? Not too greatly unless you have a team with a lot of melee heavy hitters (ideally GWM's) who dont play very tactically. Best case scenario for it is that you have a summoner who can summon in mass. In this case the value of shield master is that it can combine with the summons to allow the pc's to bring down frightened prone targets very quickly. That can easily be an overkill (and an expenssive one at that when it comes to resources), since frighened enemies stuck in your aura have everything going against them tacticaly, though it's a combination you can use to take out foes quickly and efficiently if the fight is extremelly deadly and this combo (using summons to kill targets you made vulnerable to them) is one way to punch through enemy HP at an otherwise very difficult and still dangerous encounter.
    Last edited by Corran; 2022-08-19 at 05:02 AM.
    Hacks!

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    My view on the Hexblade dip is that The Reason to do this on a Paly is to make your character SAD and it's basically the reason this is widely considered OP. The other stuff is a pretty fair trade off for the lost Paly level(s).

    In practice this allows you to start with a 15 Str and leave it there, so at character generation you're already up 1/2 ASI vs other characters who will likely start with a 16 Str. Where does this point go? Probably Con.
    As you level this means 2 things:
    1) ASIs spent on Chr are worth almost twice what they are on other Paladins given that they impact most of what you are going to be doing. You'll probably get more out of maxing Chr than any Feat, with the probable exception of 1 Feat spent to sort your fighting style as discussed upthread.
    2) Because your Str is pretty average you don't want to be attacking with it for long, so it's one of the builds I'd consider breaking my rule of thumb of trying to get to level 5 in the primary class first. Hex 1 is strong otherwise, so delaying extra attack by 1 level isn't the end of the world. Certainly, once you hit 18 Chr the 2 point difference to attack is going to be noticeable.

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Looks good as written. I suggest looking at Find Steed/Find Greater Steed (Xanthar's Guide to Everything), which is arguably their best spell.

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Worth noting that some DMs will allow you to ignore the STR multiclassing requirement if you instead meet it with DEX. If you want to go heavy armor, set Strength to 15 and forget it. If you're happy with medium armor, ask your DM about waiving the STR requirement and put a 14 in DEX.

    Regardless, if you're going Hexblade you should skip Shield Master. Without investing in Strength or Expertise in Athletics it simply won't be succeeding enough to be worth it. Warcaster and Fey Touched are much better in that scenario.

    As for when to take your Warlock levels, it's largely a function of the difference between your Charisma and your physical attacking stat. I would generally suggest taking your first Hexblade level as your 4th or 6th level, as Paladin 5 offering a second attack and second level spells is too good to delay. The second Hexblade level can come wherever, potentially after you hit Paladin 7 or 8 (depending on how badly you need the ASI). Hexblade 2 adds a lot of nice versatility and damage but is ultimately a lot less urgent for the build.

    Harness Divine Power you can save for right before short rests as a little extra bonus recovery if you have still it. Your CDs are typically too good to pass up otherwise.
    Last edited by Nidgit; 2022-08-19 at 01:59 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
    1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
    2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
    3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
    bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    My view on the Hexblade dip is that The Reason to do this on a Paly is to make your character SAD and it's basically the reason this is widely considered OP. The other stuff is a pretty fair trade off for the lost Paly level(s).

    In practice this allows you to start with a 15 Str and leave it there, so at character generation you're already up 1/2 ASI vs other characters who will likely start with a 16 Str. Where does this point go? Probably Con.
    As you level this means 2 things:
    1) ASIs spent on Chr are worth almost twice what they are on other Paladins given that they impact most of what you are going to be doing. You'll probably get more out of maxing Chr than any Feat, with the probable exception of 1 Feat spent to sort your fighting style as discussed upthread.
    2) Because your Str is pretty average you don't want to be attacking with it for long, so it's one of the builds I'd consider breaking my rule of thumb of trying to get to level 5 in the primary class first. Hex 1 is strong otherwise, so delaying extra attack by 1 level isn't the end of the world. Certainly, once you hit 18 Chr the 2 point difference to attack is going to be noticeable.
    Wow, thanks for these AWESOME answers. I am just finding back to the game after a few years (and there are actually a lot of things I forgot about). This explanations really help A LOT! :)

    So, I hope, I got everything right:
    • Dipping Warlock is absolutely worth it. The cantrips offer a lot of flexibility and being able to attack with CHA is insane imo.
    • Warlock requires Warcaster. Tbh, I first thought "oh, no. I am wasting an ASI for multiclassing." But advantage on saving throws to maintain Concentration is actually pretty awesome for Paladin spells/buffs. And being able to cast a spell as an AoO is awesome as well.
    • I need "only" STR 15 - just enough to wear a full plate. Because of this, Shield Master is out.
    • Fey-Touched might be a very strong feat to get rid of an odd CHA score later in the leveling progression.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Worth noting that some DMs will allow you to ignore the STR multiclassing requirement if you instead meet it with DEX. If you want to go heavy armor, set Strength to 15 and forget it. If you're happy with medium armor, ask your DM about waiving the STR requirement and put a 14 in DEX.
    I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    Harness Divine Power you can save for right before short rests as a little extra bonus recovery if you have still it. Your CDs are typically too good to pass up otherwise.
    If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?



    What do you think about this build?

    Race: Fallen Aasimar (CHA+2, STR+1, Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation)
    Classes: Paladin (18) / Hexblade (2)
    Oath: Conquest (CD: Mass Fear, Guided Strike, Fear Aura, Spiritual Weapon)
    Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2 or STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2
    Feats: War Caster, Fey-Touched (maybe)
    Fighting Style: Dueling Style with Longsword + Shield
    Background: Faction Agent
    Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Persuation, Insight?
    Campaign: Descent to Avernus

    Progression:

    Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
    Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
    Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
    Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: War Caster
    Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
    Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
    Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
    Level 8: Paladin (7) - Aura of Conquest
    Level 9: Paladin (8) - ASI: Fey-Touched (CHA 18) or ASI: CON/CHA (depends on abilities)
    Level 10: Paladin (9) - 3rd-level Spells
    ...


    Questions:

    1. Would you go CON 14 (WIS 10) or CON 15 (WIS 8)? Sometimes an odd score is useful when finding a magic item. Otherwise, when going CON 14 + CHA 17, I could use my second ASI to take Fey-Touched and raise CHA to 18 + getting an additional spell slot + two spells.
    2. Are the chosen Warlock Spells reasonable?
    3. Which fourth skill would you take? I thought about insight, though my character doesn't have the highest WIS score.
    4. There are two version of the Aasimar (VGtM and MotM). They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Celestial Revelation. Which one would you take?
      • VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
      • MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.



    Would be interested in your opinions! Thanks in advance! :)

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    One thing I don't think anyone touched upon, but might be relevant. Defense is the most flexible of fighting styles. If you go with duelling or great weapon style and find a sweet magical weapon of the other style you will feel pretty bad. That said, if you do go with damage styles, I'd suggest duelling, and bring along whips and lances for those moments you want to go for hit and run tactics.

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrown12 View Post
    Wow, thanks for these AWESOME answers. I am just finding back to the game after a few years (and there are actually a lot of things I forgot about). This explanations really help A LOT! :)

    So, I hope, I got everything right:
    • Dipping Warlock is absolutely worth it. The cantrips offer a lot of flexibility and being able to attack with CHA is insane imo.
    • Warlock requires Warcaster. Tbh, I first thought "oh, no. I am wasting an ASI for multiclassing." But advantage on saving throws to maintain Concentration is actually pretty awesome for Paladin spells/buffs. And being able to cast a spell as an AoO is awesome as well.
    • I need "only" STR 15 - just enough to wear a full plate. Because of this, Shield Master is out.
    • Fey-Touched might be a very strong feat to get rid of an odd CHA score later in the leveling progression.




    I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).


    If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?



    What do you think about this build?

    Race: Fallen Aasimar (CHA+2, STR+1, Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation)
    Classes: Paladin (18) / Hexblade (2)
    Oath: Conquest (CD: Mass Fear, Guided Strike, Fear Aura, Spiritual Weapon)
    Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2 or STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2
    Feats: War Caster, Fey-Touched (maybe)
    Fighting Style: Dueling Style with Longsword + Shield
    Background: Faction Agent
    Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Persuation, Insight?
    Campaign: Descent to Avernus

    Progression:

    Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
    Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
    Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
    Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: War Caster
    Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
    Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
    Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
    Level 8: Paladin (7) - Aura of Conquest
    Level 9: Paladin (8) - ASI: Fey-Touched (CHA 18) or ASI: CON/CHA (depends on abilities)
    Level 10: Paladin (9) - 3rd-level Spells
    ...


    Questions:

    1. Would you go CON 14 (WIS 10) or CON 15 (WIS 8)? Sometimes an odd score is useful when finding a magic item. Otherwise, when going CON 14 + CHA 17, I could use my second ASI to take Fey-Touched and raise CHA to 18 + getting an additional spell slot + two spells.
    2. Are the chosen Warlock Spells reasonable?
    3. Which fourth skill would you take? I thought about insight, though my character doesn't have the highest WIS score.
    4. There are two version of the Aasimar (VGtM and MotM). They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Celestial Revelation. Which one would you take?
      • VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
      • MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.



    Would be interested in your opinions! Thanks in advance! :)
    Hmm, I'm not really in agreement with the Feat selection. War Caster isn't a need; you can always use your Warlock spell slots out of combat, verbal spells, or as Smites. Is WC worth it? Maybe, but I think no. You would have the flexibility of using more spells in combat. As per the concentration saves, keep in mind that by P6 you're tacking your Chr onto all saves, so if you've got Chr to 18 by this point and Con is 14/15, you succeed on all damage to 21 points on a 4. Chr 20: you succeed on a 3.

    Shield Master: As the other poster mentioned it isn't as good without a higher Str or expertise in Athletics. But does that mean it's not worth it? The difference between a 15 Str and an 18 Str means 10% of the time this difference will be meaningful. Given an average adventuring day with roughly 20 rounds and 20 Bonus Actions that's 2 times per day that this won't work vs. an 18 Str. Yes, Expertise basically breaks bounded accuracy and gets some characters into auto success territory occasionally with SM, but I don't think you need to be there for it to be worth taking. Without it, what are you going to do with those 20 BAs?

    My summary would be pump Chr as priority (particularly if you can start with a 17 then get Fey Touched) and figure out a fighting style that uses your BA regularly.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    I may be a little late to this, but here's my 2 cents.

    I say stick with your original idea and go full class Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin with Polearm Master at level 4.

    Start 16 Str and Cha and plan on bumping +2 Cha at level 8. Take the Defense style.

    Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon so you should easily be able to get your hands on them at some point in the first few levels. They automatically set your Str at 19.
    Belt of Hill Giant Str is rare and shouldn't be that hard to find at some point either. It sets your Str score to 21.
    At higher levels, you could probably get one of the better Giant belts that could set your Str score even higher. (23,25,26 etc)

    So skip the Hexblade dip. Paladins get great features at nearly every level and you'll want them ASAP.

    PAM is an amazing feat for Paladins especially when you hit level 11 when ALL of your attacks deal an extra 1d8 damage. PAM is especially strong on Conquest Paladins.

    Remember, your 7th level Aura sets any creature's speed that is Frightened of you to 0. They can still attack you if you get in their reach. PAM lets you attack them from 10ft away so you can avoid their reach.

    Shield Master is also a great feat for a Conquest Pally. If you knock a creature prone that is frightened of you, they cannot get back up because their speed is 0.

    So one handed spear, shield, PAM, and Shield Master isn't a bad idea at all. Now you have 2 great Bonus Action options to choose from and you only love -2 Cha at level 12(18 vs 20)

    Damage between 2 handed PAM and no shield is very similar to the 1 handed spear + shield + Dueling style thanks to the Dueling's +2 damage per hit and this option has a +1 AC benefit although you do lose that nice +10 reach.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    I would actually dip 2 levels into hexblade to take Eldritch mind and for a second spell slot. Now you can skip warcaster as you can just mount your holy symbol into your shield. You have 2 slots for shield per short rest to make you tanky as the shield spell uses only verbal component. And you can use your second invocation on agonizing blast or some utility. You could also choose Hex and just cast it at the start of a battle if you aren't using spiritual weapon and then you draw your blade as a part of your attack action and hex lasts for an hour if you don't lose concentration. Remember you can also use your hexblade spell slots to cast your paladin spells....and for paladin smites
    Last edited by RazorChain; 2022-08-20 at 08:29 PM.
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    If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrown12 View Post
    I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).


    If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?
    Paladin has multiclass requirements of CHA and STR 13, which means you also need to meet those to multiclass out of it. But again, those may be waived with permission.

    Harness Divine Power is an additional Channel Divinity option available to all Paladins. It doesn't replace either subclass CD but it does use the same resource, so it's nice as a back up option.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Hmm, I'm not really in agreement with the Feat selection. War Caster isn't a need; you can always use your Warlock spell slots out of combat, verbal spells, or as Smites.
    Thanks for your answer! But if I am not wrong, Shield+Board Paladins also require the War Caster Feat, don't they? I mean, most Spells have somatic components. Without War Caster, they wouldn't even be able to cast Cure Wounds while in combat (holding my shield + sword). Or did I miss something?

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    I may be a little late to this, but here's my 2 cents.

    I say stick with your original idea and go full class Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin with Polearm Master at level 4.

    Start 16 Str and Cha and plan on bumping +2 Cha at level 8. Take the Defense style.
    The main question seems to be: Is dipping Warlock worth it? Corran summed it up quite nicely:

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
    1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
    2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
    3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
    bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.
    I even weight what he called a "bonus" (to focus on CHA) as a main benefit. To me, this sounds just fantastic.
    In addition, having War Caster allows me to cast Booming Blade on an AoO what somehow replaces Sentinel (at least halfway).

    I agree, that taking a second level of Warlock would delay the Paladin levels just too much (at least until level 12). But without taking a 2nd Warlock level, Adv. on CON-saves from War Caster becomes even more valuable.

    Honestly, it's still hard for me to make a decision:

    • PAM and Shield Master are nice Feats, but they require a STR based Paladin. So, taking a warlock level excludes this option. And the advantage of extra reaction attacks and shoving creatures were discussed as "not too greatly unless you have a team with a lot of melee heavy hitters".
    • Furthermore, PAM limits the selection of weapons I can use ("Oh, I found a nice +1 Longsword...damn...why isn't it a Spear?")
    • Going Defensive Style with a two-handed weapon makes PAM more useful. But like a lot of people in this thread wrote: The Paladin's main damage comes from Smites.


    In the end, I need to find out whether or not:
    a) it's worth (for me) dipping one level into Warlock or
    b) going a STR-based Paladin without.

    It seems, both ways are viable and my fear of "wasting" Bonus Actions seem to be unfounded as the Paladin seems to get more and more options to use his BA while leveling (regardless of dipping into Warlock or not).

    At the moment, I tend to go for Warlock with War Caster. It seems reasonable choice for my Fallen Aasimar. But I would be interested in your further opinions tho. And I still have a feeling that I missed something on the Paladin Spellcasting ability. Because I am wondering that nobody told me that wearing a shield + sword would require War Caster. If this is true, dipping Warlock becomes even stronger in my opinion.

    Thanks for all your support again!
    Last edited by bbrown12; 2022-08-26 at 11:47 AM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Angelalex242's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Male

    Default Re: Need tips for my Paladin

    Paladins use a holy symbol, and most of them put their symbol on their shields. Don't worry about War Caster unless you're super worried about concentration effects that last longer than the bonus action it takes to put a smite spell up.

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