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    Xihirli's Avatar

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    Default What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    I was looking over beast statblocks looking for a good CR 1 creature to suggest the party druid summons when they get Conjure Animals* and noticed that the Giant Vulture has 6 INT and an alignment of Neutral Evil.
    So I thought to myself, I thought "self, that's the same intelligence as the unaligned ape. I thought it was an unwritten rule that beasts couldn't HAVE alignment." Like I know Giant Eagles are an exception but they have 8 intelligence and their own language.
    So I thought to myself I thought "self, I wonder what other beasts have alignments." And it seems like only Giant Eagles and Vultures (and probably some from setting-specific material like that otter wizard) have one as sort of a... perfectly balanced, as all things should be type deal.
    But then why do Giant Vultures have two less intelligence, tying them with the unaligned ape and putting them BENEATH the unaligned Giant Ape?
    So what is the lowest INT creature to have an alignment? Other than a player who rolls badly and plays a Volo Orc for the lolz. And is there any reason I'm not aware of for making Giant Vultures Evil?

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    I'm not going to suggest anything less, I know you don't get to pick it I'm looking for things that are THEMATIC to a desert I think the DM will allow. My friend is playing a Land Druid (Desert). Yeah, and I'm a battlemaster without precision attack because I couldn't make room for it AND Commander's Strike so I picked that one. Come at me.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Are you using creature in the 5E sense, because Warhorse Skeleton (LE) would be in the running, at INT 2.
    Whatever else may be in their orders, a picket's ultimate responsibility is to die noisily.

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Ah yes, I forgot about undead. So Zombie would be second with 3.
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Lemure, Intelligence 1, Lawful Evil
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Lemure, Intelligence 1, Lawful Evil
    Worth noting, this may be because of their status as an outsider rather than because of their possessing an intelligence. They are, by all descriptions, nonsapient.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    I don't think the ability to have an alignment even is tied to Intelligence in 5e. I think it's just an arbitrary trait that is assigned on a case-by-case basis.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Me, Int 0, neutral good

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    I don't think the ability to have an alignment even is tied to Intelligence in 5e.
    ^^^^^^ this.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-08-16 at 09:47 AM.
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Lemure, Intelligence 1, Lawful Evil
    Well, mystery solved I guess.
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Beings under the effect of feeblemind don't appear to lose their alignment

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Lemure, Intelligence 1, Lawful Evil
    It has to be that alignment because it's a type of devil, but it's not really a sapient (or even sentient) with an intelligence of 1. Kind of interesting.

    I mean, at intelligence 1, you can't even reasonably hold a Lemure responsible for its actions. It's acting on pure instinct at that point. It's essentially a devil-shaped snake or shark (which have the same intelligence score).

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    It has to be that alignment because it's a type of devil, but it's not really a sapient (or even sentient) with an intelligence of 1. Kind of interesting.

    I mean, at intelligence 1, you can't even reasonably hold a Lemure responsible for its actions. It's acting on pure instinct at that point. It's essentially a devil-shaped snake or shark (which have the same intelligence score).
    I think you could still assume it's actively cruel as opposed to acting out of hunger or fear when it cause harm.
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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I think you could still assume it's actively cruel as opposed to acting out of hunger or fear when it cause harm.
    The descriptions for Lemures have historically emphasized that they arent even really aware enough of their surroundings to direct their actions either against somebody or for their own benefit, at least not deliberately. Being a Lemure sucks. A lot.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    I think you could still assume it's actively cruel as opposed to acting out of hunger or fear when it cause harm.
    That would be in line with how Mordenkainen describes lemures.

    Quote Originally Posted by MToF p168, in-character note
    A lemure emerges from the Styx wiped of memory, yet the patterns of evil it performed in life remain indelibly inscribed upon its soul.
    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Being a Lemure sucks. A lot.
    Especially when they come across kytons.

    Quote Originally Posted by MM p68, Chain Devil (Kyton)
    Chain devils act as sadistic jailers and torturers in the infernal realms, relishing pain and living to inflict it on others. They are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest.
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2022-08-16 at 01:01 PM.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The descriptions for Lemures have historically emphasized that they arent even really aware enough of their surroundings to direct their actions either against somebody or for their own benefit, at least not deliberately. Being a Lemure sucks. A lot.
    You sold your soul, but didn't do anything particularly noteworthy in life to even get promoted to Imp in the afterlife. That's pretty lame.

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    You sold your soul, but didn't do anything particularly noteworthy in life to even get promoted to Imp in the afterlife. That's pretty lame.
    There is another very interesting bit of lore in MtoF.

    Quote Originally Posted by MToF p12, Mammon
    As the lord of Minauros, Mammon oversees the soul trade. While those who pledge their souls are claimed by the devil they bargained with, lawful evil creatures that aren't bound by any contract emerge from the River Styx as lemures.
    This would suggest that selling your soul is actually how you avoid the lemure step entirely, and maybe even the memory-wiping river itself.
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    You sold your soul, but didn't do anything particularly noteworthy in life to even get promoted to Imp in the afterlife. That's pretty lame.
    Seems to me like the devil worshipers get off scot free. I mean they immediately emerge from the river with no memory of who they were, what they did, etc. So nothing they did in life is really being punished. I much prefer the old school afterlife description where the devils like to make deals with powerful individuals and corrupt them so when they died their soul was tortured to extract every bit of spiritual energy out of them, possibly for centuries, until all that is left is the mindless, powerless husk that becomes a Lemure. Some devils were tasked with making sure that the newly arrived did not drink from the river Styx so who and what they were would be in tact for maximum energy extraction.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Seems to me like the devil worshipers get off scot free. I mean they immediately emerge from the river with no memory of who they were, what they did, etc. So nothing they did in life is really being punished. I much prefer the old school afterlife description where the devils like to make deals with powerful individuals and corrupt them so when they died their soul was tortured to extract every bit of spiritual energy out of them, possibly for centuries, until all that is left is the mindless, powerless husk that becomes a Lemure. Some devils were tasked with making sure that the newly arrived did not drink from the river Styx so who and what they were would be in tact for maximum energy extraction.
    In 5e at least, the evil afterlives arent deliberately torturous for its own sake, its just a byproduct of everybody there being evil. So while in a broad karmic sense it may be a punishment for their behavior in life, its not a deliberate attempt at cosmic justice.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: What is the Lowest INT Creature to Have an Alignment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    In 5e at least, the evil afterlives arent deliberately torturous for its own sake, its just a byproduct of everybody there being evil. So while in a broad karmic sense it may be a punishment for their behavior in life, its not a deliberate attempt at cosmic justice.
    Well... and the whole place being made of and expressing Evil... the ground and air and everything itself is a shade of evil (in the hard-for-mortals-to-really-get way of the Outer Planes). Even without other people, the very presence of the Lower Planes is pretty malevolent; just... not to punish you

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