RAW Ravenloft Lineages + Astral Elf?

[Khrysaes]

So to preface, 1: I am not planning on using this as a player. and 2: I am not sure how I would handle it as a DM if someone brought it to me. I am inclined to allow it as it fits somewhat.

I had a thought

Lineages from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft have Ancestral Legacy, which says

"If you replace a race with this lineage, you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it"


Astral elves have Astral Trance, which states

"Whenever you finish this trance, you gain proficiency in one skill of your choice and with one weapon or tool of your choice, selected from the Player’s Handbook."



By RAW I think only the skill with which proficiency is gained from Astral Trance at the time of the replacement of the race would be kept.

I.e. if I choose to be proficient in acrobatics and caligrapher's tools after this long rest, then before the next long rest my race is replaced with a Lineage, then for the eternity of the character existing as a Lineage, they would be proficient in acrobatics, but not caligrapher's tools.


So my questions seem to be:
1: Is my reading of the RAW correct?
2: Would you as a DM allow the player to keep the Full Astral Trance and replace their skill AND tool/weapon proficiencies after each long rest?, or would you adjudicate otherwise?
NOTE: This only is asking about the Astral Trance Feature, not Keen Senses

I think there were more thoughts, but I forgot them as writing this.

[Amnestic]

1: Is my reading of the RAW correct?

Seems so - they'd keep acro and lose the tool prof.

2: Would you as a DM allow the player to keep the Full Astral Trance and replace their skill AND tool/weapon proficiencies after each long rest?, or would you adjudicate otherwise?

I wouldn't; that'd be beyond the standard expected power level for ancestral legacy (i.e. 2 skills, set in stone). The ravenloft races are already pretty solid, I'm not a huge fan of people specifically seeking out previous races to get additional boons on top of what they already get, and giving them full astral trance would do that.

[Psyren]

I would not let any of the new elves keep their trance-proficiencies in a Lineage form.

Rules-wise, while you normally keep the proficiencies of your previous race, they lose the (Astral) Trance ability entirely - and the floating proficiencies they gain from trancing are tied to that trait. In addition, the proficiencies you gained from Trance only last until your next long rest, so even if you did keep them, they'd go away at that point.

Fluff-wise, becoming a Lineage cuts you off from the ancestral/shared memory these proficiencies come from.

[Khrysaes]

Rules-wise, while you normally keep the proficiencies of your previous race, they lose the (Astral) Trance ability entirely - and the floating proficiencies they gain from trancing are tied to that trait.

Just to counter this point (the rest I can agree with or understand),

Perception proficiency is tied to the Keen Senses trait, and the character loses that trait too.

Similarly for other races, each proficiency is tied to a trait they lose.

Lineage doesn't specify the trait, just the proficiency gained from the race.

"you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it"

I would parse it as:
1: did you gain skill proficiencies/proficiency?
2: if yes: was it an element of the previous race?
3: if yes: keep it.

Additionally, as you mentioned, "they lose the (Astral) Trance ability entirely" which means they also lose the aspect of the ability that says "and you retain them until you finish your next long rest." which means that
4: since they lose the clause that says the proficiencies are retained until finishing the next long rest, they would keep the proficiency even after a long rest.

Also, 1 extra skill proficiency isn't going to break an Astral Elf to Lineage conversion, for comparison:
1: Lizardfolk get 2 skill proficiencies, and a swim speed.
2: Owlin get one skill proficiency and flying speed.
3: PHB Half-elves get two proficiencies.
4: Tabaxi get 2 skill proficiencies, and a climb speed,


Now, off the top of my head, Astral elf is the only floating proficiency from a race that can change regularly during gameplay, so there is no precedent for ruling this specific situation, and each DM will likely do so in their preferred manner. Not everyone has the same opinions about which points in the game are good or bad, rulings, or changes, and that is fine.

[Psyren]

Additionally, as you mentioned, "they lose the (Astral) Trance ability entirely" which means they also lose the aspect of the ability that says "and you retain them until you finish your next long rest." which means that
4: since they lose the clause that says the proficiencies are retained until finishing the next long rest, they would keep the proficiency even after a long rest.

See, this I disagree with. If you lose the clause that says you lose them, you're also losing the one that says you gain them. They're not passive the way other racial proficiencies are, you obtain them via a specific act. I view trancing for a couple of proficiencies and then running out real quick to boink a vampire (or however you gain these on an existing race) to "lock in your floats" is cheesy at best.

[Khrysaes]

See, this I disagree with. If you lose the clause that says you lose them, you're also losing the one that says you gain them. They're not passive the way other racial proficiencies are, you obtain them via a specific act. I view trancing for a couple of proficiencies and then running out real quick to boink a vampire (or however you gain these on an existing race) to "lock in your floats" is cheesy at best.

While you do lose the requirement and ability to perform a specific act to gain the proficiency, It could be argued that if you performed the act from the ability granted by the race to gain a proficiency prior to becoming a lineage that it was still a skill proficiency gained from that race. The wording doesn't specify a passive automatic feature like keen senses or a feature activated through a long rest, just “skill proficiencies gained from [race]”

Additionally, keen senses says “ You have proficiency in the Perception skill.”

By the wording of lineage, you retain the proficiency, but lose the wording of the feature granting the proficiency.

Lineage doesn't say anything about the tool or weapon proficiency so that is just emphatically lost.

I do not disagree with you that it would be cheesy. I think it could work through fluff to fit the concept of astral elf becoming a lineage. perhaps the ancestral spirit that granted them their skill proficiency is trapped in the body with them but the astral elf lost the ability to commune with the other spirits. Therefore the proficiency is kept, but no longer changeable.
Again, one proficiency, two in total, wouldnt be broken over other races.

My main questions were 1: did i parse raw correctly? And 2: how would people rule it? You have certainly given your explicit answer for number two, so thank you. And based on your wording you think that for number 1 the answer is “no” if not explicitly stated, and i just wanted to contribute the logic to show why i believe my understanding of RAW is “linguistically” correct, if not intended.