OOTS #1265 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug Lampert]

I like the unbridled optimism that ads are going away sometime soon!

It's an odd ecology. Most of the ads on a game are for other free games that are funded by ads.

The occasional game that gets its revenue from in-app purchases and the occasional ad for non-game stuff appear to be the only actual income producers, and I'd guess that that's maybe half the ads I see (or maybe a lot more of these games actually expect to get something from in-app purchases than I think, but a lot of them seem to have "ad-free" as their only significant in-ap purchase).

[Carl]

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

Welcome to 3.x casters, they're insanely overpowered when not sticking to mostly blasting like Xykon and V.

[mjasghar]

And I think you're reading into this too much. It's made fairly explicit that the swapovers might as well be capable of sending people who cross over... basically anywhere else on the Material. Also, if it was basically a Dungeon of Holding I think that would have pinged on the Detect Magic.

Except that the places they are sent also have multidimensional stone to block ethereal travel etc. Moreover it’s likely that if they were teleported to different continents you would see a difference in monsters encountered and clothing.

[tyckspoon]

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

Plus either 500 or 1000 GP or equivalent value per HD of the summoned creature, depending on how long the requested service is expected to take. It's not -free-, but yeah, the value you would expect to get from having access to a creature like that to assist you in clearing several fights or an entire dungeon massively outweighs the costs to summon them; the comic has largely avoided showcasing just how effective summoned assistance like this can be in order to let the main cast stay in the spotlight, because once you start on it the question of 'ok why don't you just drop a high-tier Angel/demon/devil/avatar of Law/elder elemental/etc on it?' starts getting asked about everything.

(Part, I suspect, of why Rich made the 'it takes part of my soul' thing seem more dramatic and painful with this casting compared to previous XP costs being treated in a 'eh, it sucks, but I'll earn it back' fashion - it helps explain why they haven't just Gated in heavy hitters to help them burn through more doors faster before, even though they're running into encounters where Epic Lich Xykon can actually earn xp which means Redcloak would certainly make back the 1,000 XP and more.)

[Grey Watcher]

I'm imagining it going like this, at a suitably dramatic moment:

"Wait. Why is this room on your projection differently colored?"
⚙️: "That is not a room, that is a region overlapped by two rooms from the baseline observation point."
"How is that possible?"
⚙️: "The end points of the respective teleportation effects are necessarily not aligned with respect--"
"Teleportation?!?! When have we been teleporting?"
⚙️: "Each doorway contains a spacial translocation zone."
"And you didn't think to tell me?"
⚙️: "You necessarily traversed one to get to the location where you summoned me."
"And that means I was supposed to know?"
⚙️: "Are you not familiar with Gear'rdus Mercator's Treatise on Higher-Dimensional Topology?"
"...you thought it was obvious we were exploring a teleportation-linked complex, because we were inside a teleportation-linked complex."
⚙️: "Correct."

(Unicode gear emoji not to scale, probably.)

I mean, Celia provides precedent for outsiders being a kinda clueless about the limitations of Primes.

[LadyEowyn]

It's an odd ecology. Most of the ads on a game are for other free games that are funded by ads.

The occasional game that gets its revenue from in-app purchases and the occasional ad for non-game stuff appear to be the only actual income producers, and I'd guess that that's maybe half the ads I see (or maybe a lot more of these games actually expect to get something from in-app purchases than I think, but a lot of them seem to have "ad-free" as their only significant in-ap purchase).

My guess would be that they’re the kind of apps that collect data from everything you do on your phone/tablet (not just in the app) and sell it to other business, and that that - rather than ads or in-app purchases - is their primary revenue stream.

That may also be why the app creators don’t care that the game us completely different from how the ads depict it: whether or not you play the game is irrelevant. Once you’ve downloaded it, they have what they want.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean, Celia provides precedent for outsiders being a kinda clueless about the limitations of Primes.

Giggled, I did. Never did like Celia, except for the date night in azure city.

[Riftwolf]

I'm guessing the ads generated by a Lawful Neutral force are at least honest representations. And don't run a mini-game that clicks you over to the Play store after three moves. Or force real actors to read out the stupidest scripts to make it seem like you get the best stuff in the game for free. Or start with yelling.
I have a lot of problems with gaming ads...

[Thermophille]

I have a lot of problems with gaming ads...

To be fair, they're not aiming for the most discerning audience...

[Coventry]

I wonder if "Skip" will come back to haunt Redcloak. And "you don't need to know that" seems like it might cause problems if and when the gate is found.
Also, poor "Accept" modron.

Functionally infinite number of forcewalls? Really? That's pretty OP.

And Greyview playing D&D and not liking it is so disappointing.

I think the second "skip" during the ad is what is going to haunt Redcloak. A Modron would skip the ad and the next thing in line.

[WanderingMist]

In Futurama, there's an episode (A Bicyclops Built for Two) where the characters log onto the internet. Fry exclaims in shock, "my god! It's full of ads!" This episode aired in 2000.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine how well the OotS ad joke ages.

Also from 2000, this Onion article:

Area Man Consults Internet Whenever Possible

[Psyren]

Siiiiiigh. I knew it was only a matter of time before OOTS got full of ads.

I chuckled

First of all, "they" is probably enough, though most sources tend to use "it".

Second, Wall of Force is explicitly indestructible if it's not one of the explicit abilities that can pop it. Sunny's antimagic cone and disintegration ray would work(as would the Disintegration spell).

Actually, Wall of Force is immune to antimagic field, and therefore also Sunny's cone which works identically to it.

[HalfTangible]

I chuckled



Actually, Wall of Force is immune to antimagic field, and therefore also Sunny's cone which works identically to it.

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

[ff7hero]

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

I don't recall the comic being referenced, but I feel compelled to point out that Forcecage and Wall of Force are different spells.

[HalfTangible]

I don't recall the comic being referenced, but I feel compelled to point out that Forcecage and Wall of Force are different spells.

It's when the black dragon returns to attack V while on an island in the middle of the sea. Both spells create walls of pure force.

[Psyren]

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

I'm not going to rehash that particular debate, I'll just point out that by the (3.5) rules, a beholder's cone cannot shut down a wall of force.

[danielxcutter]

Welcome to 3.x casters, they're insanely overpowered when not sticking to mostly blasting like Xykon and V.

To be fair, a) when Xykon's against an actual threat, often he's facing multiple opponents so blasting gets a bit more efficient, and b) Redcloak actually uses a lot of non-blasting spells. He's probably one of the best "cleric as caster" examples in the game. (Durkon is more cleric-as-gish, which also includes physical combat.)

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

I'm not going to rehash that particular debate, I'll just point out that by the (3.5) rules, a beholder's cone cannot shut down a wall of force.

Of course, if Sunny catches the Quinton in their AMF it won't be able to make any walls anyways.

[Psyren]

Of course, if Sunny catches the Quinton in their AMF it won't be able to make any walls anyways.

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

[danielxcutter]

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

I mean the area of the cone is pretty wide. If Sunny is part of the fight, it's unlikely they'll be able to trivialize the entire encounter but I don't think they're going to be utterly useless either.

[Xirdus]

As an avid speedrunning fan, I must point out this isn't Any%. It's more of a 100%, or at least All Dungeons%. Any% is what the Team Stick did - arrive at the right one on first try then clip through walls to the end.

[Grey Watcher]

As an avid speedrunning fan, I must point out this isn't Any%. It's more of a 100%, or at least All Dungeons%. Any% is what the Team Stick did - arrive at the right one on first try then clip through walls to the end.

Not really, they intend to stop if they find the Gate, rather than keep exploring. So this is more akin to a no-manip run. Or possibly a blind playthrough since they don't know the big twist.

[Fish]

What is the point of showing the negotiations at all if they aren't going to matter?

Perhaps the parts that matter were already shown.

[Jervis]

Plus either 500 or 1000 GP or equivalent value per HD of the summoned creature, depending on how long the requested service is expected to take. It's not -free-, but yeah, the value you would expect to get from having access to a creature like that to assist you in clearing several fights or an entire dungeon massively outweighs the costs to summon them; the comic has largely avoided showcasing just how effective summoned assistance like this can be in order to let the main cast stay in the spotlight, because once you start on it the question of 'ok why don't you just drop a high-tier Angel/demon/devil/avatar of Law/elder elemental/etc on it?' starts getting asked about everything.

(Part, I suspect, of why Rich made the 'it takes part of my soul' thing seem more dramatic and painful with this casting compared to previous XP costs being treated in a 'eh, it sucks, but I'll earn it back' fashion - it helps explain why they haven't just Gated in heavy hitters to help them burn through more doors faster before, even though they're running into encounters where Epic Lich Xykon can actually earn xp which means Redcloak would certainly make back the 1,000 XP and more.)

In my opinion this is the reason V banned Conjuration, in a meta sense anyway. As for our other caster friend… uh, dishonorable?

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

Well he might be able to aim it down and get the whole room like last tim. But even disregarding that I think Quintons and Modrons have some decent stats for bopping things on the head. I don’t have the stats in front of me but I remember some decent battle capabilities and I think those modrons might have EX flight. As an aside I can actually see MitD revealing himself because of a ambush that involves sunny.

[Thermophille]

In my opinion this is the reason V banned Conjuration, in a meta sense anyway.

I thought it was for teleportation?

[Steveio]

Not really, they intend to stop if they find the Gate, rather than keep exploring. So this is more akin to a no-manip run. Or possibly a blind playthrough since they don't know the big twist.

Could this be considered a tool-assisted speedrun, or no?

[Trixie_One]

The punchline is funny, but it feels a little more like the kind of short term pop culture reference that the strip doesn't do as often. Not sure how it will age.

There's been plenty of those kind of jokes in the strip to the point it didn't jump out at me at all. In the same strip you've got a joke about speedrunning. Sure that's been around since Doom but it's not really been popularized on the internet as a whole since Summoning Salt got big in the last couple of years.

[warmachine]

Redcloak may regret not listening to the terms and conditions. Quintons have high rank in Modron society, making it far more likely no other Modron can do their job in an emergency. There may be a clause that quintons can be recalled back to their job at no notice, which isn't present in the standardised T&Cs of lesser Modrons.

[Peelee]

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

Neither are, actually. WoF says "immune to most spells" any they lists spells that can affect it, but does not mention AMF (it does mention Dispel Magic). Forcecage has something like "similar to WoF ignores Dispel magic but is affected by these spells".

[mjasghar]

My guess would be that they’re the kind of apps that collect data from everything you do on your phone/tablet (not just in the app) and sell it to other business, and that that - rather than ads or in-app purchases - is their primary revenue stream.

That may also be why the app creators don’t care that the game us completely different from how the ads depict it: whether or not you play the game is irrelevant. Once you’ve downloaded it, they have what they want.

Actually free games like candy crush etc are much more malicious than you think - they are platforms for gambling game designs
They see which type of shiny graphics people like the most and then use them to invent more addictive gambling games

[Skrilzz]

Redcloak may regret not listening to the terms and conditions. Quintons have high rank in Modron society, making it far more likely no other Modron can do their job in an emergency. There may be a clause that quintons can be recalled back to their job at no notice, which isn't present in the standardised T&Cs of lesser Modrons.

Had to read through six pages to make sure nobody noticed this, and on the final page it was there.

Redcloak says in the first panel: "I've summoned weaker inhabitants of this plane before and the contract is standardized."

How would he know the contract terms are the same for quintons. Implication from previous contracts is not proof in my book.