New Games of Thrones TV Series Premieres on Sunday

[Mechalich]

I'd like to see someone adapt Robin Hobb's Fitzchivalry or Liveship Trader books. They're TV friendly budget wise and highly character driven, and they're already diverse you you don't need to bother with the usual stupid controversies.

The Fitzchivalry books are budget friendly, the Liveship trader ones are not, entirely due to the increased importance of water in the latter. Naval anything massively ups the expense of a sequence.

I’m still waiting for Dragonriders of Pern. That would make a great trilogy right there.

Pern's been in development hell for a long time. McCaffery first sold the rights back in the mid-90s and there's never been a show made. Warner Brothers currently has the rights, but has done exactly nothing since 2014.

[Rodin]

Difficulty with Pern is all the dragons. CGI may be easier now than ever before but it's still hella expensive. GoT got away with it because the scope of the story allowed them to keep the dragons out of focus for most of the show's run. Even so I found it very noticeable that they killed off as many of the direwolves as possible. Of the two that survive Nymeria's plot is never revisted and Ghost is sent away for budgetary reasons to keep him safe during the final battle. The offing of two out of the three dragons was likely done for the same reason.

Pern would work best as a traditionally animated series where you can do full flights of dragons justice without spending the GDP of a small country on the CGI work.

[GloatingSwine]

The Fitzchivalry books are budget friendly, the Liveship trader ones are not, entirely due to the increased importance of water in the latter. Naval anything massively ups the expense of a sequence.

Also because 100% of people who started reading the Liveship Traders series stopped after the first one because it is monumentally dull.

I really don't want to see what Hollywood would do to Dragon riders of Pern. We'd end up with sentient thread or some nonsense. There's no real central antagonist in those books and they don't do well with those stories.

Someone should do an anime of it. Probably Gen Urobochi. Then when it turns out that the series is actually a sci-fi space colony show about time travel and spaceships and AIs that just also happens to have dragons in then nobody will be surprised or disoriented.

[Saintheart]

Difficulty with Pern is all the dragons.

Also #CurrentSocialIssues. Reread what happens in the wake of Mnementh and Ramoth's first mating flight, not to mention generally how F'lar deals with Lessa in that first book, and you'll see a number of moments that just wouldn't go on screen. Even allowing for the fact they're dealing with a completely different culture and psychic empath dragons that basically overwhelm their human companions' brains. Sorry, I think my beloved and completely unfilmable Hyperion by Dan Simmons has more of a chance getting made into a TV series than Pern.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as dragons go, I'm still hoping that Temeraire gets optioned again at some point. Napoleonic Wars WITH DRAGONS is a very easy concept for Hollywood to take and ruin run with it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Pern's been in development hell for a long time.

I’m aware.

Originally Posted by Rodin
Difficulty with Pern is all the dragons. CGI may be easier now than ever before but it's still hella expensive.

Pricey, but not insurmountable. WB certainly has the pockets for it.

Originally Posted by Saintheart
Reread what happens in the wake of Mnementh and Ramoth's first mating flight, not to mention generally how F'lar deals with Lessa in that first book, and you'll see a number of moments that just wouldn't go on screen.

To say nothing of the mess Ramoth makes during Impression.

That said, certain other aspects of weyr life (e.g. pairings of blue and green riders) would probably be received positively, so it’s a question of selective pruning.

Both finance and social issues might make a series based on the Harper trilogy more feasible, since the main CGI requirements would be for the fire lizards. Good location scouting will get you most of the settings without the need for too much additional CGI.

Speaking of Harpers, were the ones in Forgotten Realms based on the Pern novels?

[GloatingSwine]

Also #CurrentSocialIssues. Reread what happens in the wake of Mnementh and Ramoth's first mating flight, not to mention generally how F'lar deals with Lessa in that first book, and you'll see a number of moments that just wouldn't go on screen.

Yeah. Though I wouldn't put it past McCaffrey to have included that stuff just because it was popular at the time. Note how it mostly disappears after Dragonflight. (She definitely wrote some stories as basically softcore because she knew they would sell because of it, the short that turned into the Freedom series started out that way.)

[tomandtish]

Tamora Pierce's Circle of Magic would make a great kid's TV series. Each book has enough to make up a serial and there's good rotation through the characters. Biggest problem you get is after they split up the books only focus on one kid at a time.

Song of the Lioness and/or Protector of the Small would also make good shows if adapted correctly. She's one of the better YA writers out there.

[warty goblin]

Song of the Lioness and/or Protector of the Small would also make good shows if adapted correctly. She's one of the better YA writers out there.

I'd flat out flip for a Song of the Lioness show or movie. I could see that one as pretty tricky though, because it starts with young children, ends with these children as young adults, and unless massively padded out, wouldn't take that long to televise.

Only thing that comes in ahead would be Sabriel for me. I think you could do that book just fantastically well in a six or eight hour miniseries. Ditto Liriel and Abhorsen, but let's stop there because the series after that is pretty eh. I maintain a fondness for Clariel, but Goldenhand was the worst sort of unnessary formulaic extension to a series that should have been let lie.

Actually that's a lie. Give me a three season rendition of Dragonlance Chronicles, with a proper budget, some tightening up of the plot and the removal of a few extraneous characters (do we need Gilthanas? no we do not) and I'm a very happy man.

[tomandtish]

I'd flat out flip for a Song of the Lioness show or movie. I could see that one as pretty tricky though, because it starts with young children, ends with these children as young adults, and unless massively padded out, wouldn't take that long to televise.

Only thing that comes in ahead would be Sabriel for me. I think you could do that book just fantastically well in a six or eight hour miniseries. Ditto Liriel and Abhorsen, but let's stop there because the series after that is pretty eh. I maintain a fondness for Clariel, but Goldenhand was the worst sort of unnessary formulaic extension to a series that should have been let lie.

Actually that's a lie. Give me a three season rendition of Dragonlance Chronicles, with a proper budget, some tightening up of the plot and the removal of a few extraneous characters (do we need Gilthanas? no we do not) and I'm a very happy man.

Actually it might work very well. Each series is four books taking place over about 4 years, so a book a year (AKA season). The bigger problem i see is that the physical demands for combat training might require using actors older than our characters (since they start at 10 years old).

Incidentally, i assume you are aware they did Dragons of Autumn Twilight as an animated movie?

[warty goblin]

Actually it might work very well. Each series is four books taking place over about 4 years, so a book a year (AKA season). The bigger problem i see is that the physical demands for combat training might require using actors older than our characters (since they start at 10 years old).

Song of the Lioness covers like 10 years IIRC. At a book a season you'd have to change out all the child actors at least once, maybe twice. I suppose the alternative is to start with like 14 year olds and spend 18 months or so making each season, but that story just reads really differently

Incidentally, i assume you are aware they did Dragons of Autumn Twilight as an animated movie?

Sadly yes. It has some good art, and the voice acting is fairly solid, but it... isn't good.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd like to see someone adapt Robin Hobb's Fitzchivalry or Liveship Trader books.

Fitz yes. I have been promoting Hobb's Farseer books in my posts on and off here.

Hey, someone else remembers Robin Hobb! I agree, someone should film the Farseer Trilogy. And the first sequel trilogy, then forget what comes after.

Yes, the third trilogy would be kind of hard to swallow.

Saw the GoT show tonight: they feel is about right, but they really went heavy on the "it's dark" them from a lighting perspective.

[Sapphire Guard]

What's wrong with the third trilogy?

[Mechalich]

To actually talk about House of the Dragon for a moment, I thought the first episode was fine. It's a solid bit of mostly table-setting material that's well-acted and seems to have potential. It looks great, the massive amount of money poured into it is readily apparent (even if they did lean a bit too heavily on the 'candles and torches' lighting limitation).

The only worrying bit is that it's already and exceedingly grim show and not likely to get any brighter. This story really is a 'Game of Thrones' in that its about which silver-haired person gets to sit on the chair and that's basically it. It may be difficult to sustain interest in essentially the complete absence of any sympathetic characters.

[Aedilred]

To actually talk about House of the Dragon for a moment, I thought the first episode was fine. It's a solid bit of mostly table-setting material that's well-acted and seems to have potential. It looks great, the massive amount of money poured into it is readily apparent (even if they did lean a bit too heavily on the 'candles and torches' lighting limitation).

The only worrying bit is that it's already and exceedingly grim show and not likely to get any brighter. This story really is a 'Game of Thrones' in that its about which silver-haired person gets to sit on the chair and that's basically it. It may be difficult to sustain interest in essentially the complete absence of any sympathetic characters.

Although I don't know how much of this will translate to screen given that the characters are described at some distance in the book without zooming in too much on their dialogue and specific actions, there are or at least should be sympathetic characters in the course of the story (provided that you don't treat anyone of royal birth as unsympathetic by default).

Most of the third-generation characters (i.e. the various children of Rhaenys, Aegon II and Daemon), many of whom have no agency but some of whom do, there's Addam Velaryon, Prince Daeron, and various more minor characters, and Viserys I himself seems to have been - although he went off right at the end - one of the most good-natured Targ kings, probably too much so for the good of the succession. Plus a number of more minor characters who should be able to occupy the Oberyn Martell role of not being an especially good guy but cool/badass enough that you root for them anyway (and you already have - though ymmv - Corlys Velaryon and potentially Daemon in that kind of role too).

[Dire_Flumph]

Although I don't know how much of this will translate to screen given that the characters are described at some distance in the book without zooming in too much on their dialogue and specific actions, there are or at least should be sympathetic characters in the course of the story (provided that you don't treat anyone of royal birth as unsympathetic by default).

It's probably one of the biggest strengths of doing this story in particular. For those who haven't read it, Fire and Blood put out a pretty solid outline of events to follow, and it's a good story, but it was done as an in-universe historical document heavy on facts of what happened and much looser on motivations given as the "authors" were cobbling together multiple accounts that all had different perspectives. This gives the show runners a lot of leeway with character definition, and so far I think it looks promising.

Spoiler: One small bit that may be a spoiler to those not familiar with the story

Show

I did think it was an odd choice to start the narrative 20 years before the actual start of the Dance of the Dragons, but I like that it will allow them to properly lay out the current setting and characters before things really get heated up. It is a lot like setting the first season of Game of Thrones during Robert's Rebellion though.

It's a bit early in the series to say for sure, but I really enjoyed the first episode. Other than the continued wish for the showrunners to tone down the gratuitous sex and violence (did we really need to see some guy's severed willy?) I think the only complaint I have with the first episode so far is that in the original story it was clear Viserys loved his brother Daemon and they didn't come off as having much of a close bond here. More that he was just tolerating his antics to a degree because of their relation.

Also, where the heck is Mushroom?

[JadedDM]

Also, where the heck is Mushroom?

Just speculating here, but I suspect Mushroom was removed from this adaptation for being too problematic.

[Dire_Flumph]

Just speculating here, but I suspect Mushroom was removed from this adaptation for being too problematic.

Possibly, and I could see the overlap with Tyrion being perceived as a more blatant copycat character. What I was hoping to see though in contrast to Tyrion, who couldn't help but show people how clever he was all the time, was someone who obfuscated stupidity for his own ends. It wasn't clear in the books if he was part of any larger plots or goals, but he seems to have been just a little too involved in big events and that seemed ripe for fleshing out. I was at the very least curious to see how the show might adapt him, and I have to assume he will at least turn up in the background at some point.

In the end though, he was useful in Fire and Blood for being a splash of color and advancing the unreliable narrator aspect of the story, so he could easily be trimmed out here.

[warty goblin]

Watched the first episode. Overall my impressions are pretty positive. Totally non-spoiler impressions follow.

The first thing that struck me is that they clearly spent a small mountain on this, and it absolutely shows because it looks almost nonstop great. Not just good for TV, actually just good. I suppose they've had a lot of practice with the dragons and other assets, but still, very good work.


Second impression, this is the first piece of streaming TV I've seen in, oh a good while, that is made with anything beyond the most obvious and basic filmic techniques. This isn't avant garde or anything, but it understands things like editing beyond shot reverse shot, so you get things like multiple scenes edited together, or audio from one scene played over another, there's just a sense of more than basic competence, and I really like that. This is a show that is, literally, worth watching.

Third impression, it also requires a certain amount of attention from the audience. It's not rocket science, but it ls a lot less hand-holdy than a lot of stuff. I also appreciate.

Fourth impression. GRRM doesn't like monarchy.

Fifth impression, Daemon gives me mega-Elric vibes, at least aesthetically.

[Giggling Ghast]

I watched the first episode and something really confused me.

OK, so the old king was left without heirs, so to avoid a war, he had all the lords vote on who would succeed him.

But I thought that when there is no clear candidate to become King of Westeros, I thought they instead chose whoever “has the best story” because there’s nothing in the world more powerful than a good story. That’s how they settled on King Bran.

So is that a new rule that was introduced after this prequel series …?

[hamishspence]

The old king didn't so much have no heirs as multiple competing heirs, hence the voting.

[Saintheart]

I watched the first episode and something really confused me.

OK, so the old king was left without heirs, so to avoid a war, he had all the lords vote on who would succeed him.

But I thought that when there is no clear candidate to become King of Westeros, I thought they instead chose whoever “has the best story” because there’s nothing in the world more powerful than a good story.

So is that a new rule that was introduced after this prequel series …?

We Don't Talk About Bruno That Season.

There's been three Great Councils in Westeros history. The first you've already seen, the Council of Jaeherys I. The second happens after the Dance of the Dragons, and the last was the one that put Aegon Targaryen V, i.e. the "Egg" of the Dunk and Egg stories, on the throne. In the books, this is Jon Snow's great-great-grandfather, though the TV series (if I remember right) condenses the family line down by a generation or so; Aemon, the Maester at Castle Black, was Egg's older brother in the books but was passed over specifically because he'd taken the Black and the Chain.

[Mechalich]

Aemon, the Maester at Castle Black, was Egg's older brother in the books but was passed over specifically because he'd taken the Black and the Chain.

That actually also happens at the Council of Jaehaerys I. His only surviving son at the time was Archmaester Vaegon, who is actually the one who suggested the Grand Council.

[hamishspence]

Aemon, the Maester at Castle Black, was Egg's older brother in the books but was passed over specifically because he'd taken the Black and the Chain.

Actually he hadn't taken the Black yet - just the Chain. He was offered the chance to retire from the Maesters in order to become King - but refused, and took the Black as well, to get himself out of the way of court intrigue.


Egg had a nephew too - the son of another of his older brothers, the deceased Aerion Brightflame. He was passed over because his dead father had been a very unstable man.

[Aedilred]

If I remember rightly, Jaehaerys actually had two Great Councils. The first was after his son Aemond was killed, and settled on Baelon as his heir. Then after Baelon died he called the second, more controversial one, which selected the future Viserys I.

What is worth noting is that at this point in Westerosi history the kingdom is still relatively young in dynastic terms and the law is not particularly well-settled when it comes to things like the succession. These things often run on precedent and custom but the custom is unclear, because when Aenys died, he was followed by his brother Maegor, not any of his sons.

And while the books tend to talk about Maegor as a usurper, it's likely that this is in part (given GRRM's penchant for unreliable narrators) because Maegor ultimately "lost" and Jaehaerys had it recorded that Maegor usurped the throne from Prince Aegon: Maegor was not a particularly popular king, but he did have supporters at the time.

Like many things in the history of ASoIaF, this has parallels in English history, although the ASoIaF version is if anything a bit less messy. Because the English succession has run on primogeniture for ages, there's an assumption that it always did, but for the first 90-dd years of the kingdom the kingdom ran effectively on seniority (i.e. kings were succeeded by their brothers in preference to their sons), then for the next 50 years there were multiple instances of elected kings, whether de jure or de facto, from four different dynasties, and three of whom had no blood relationship to previous kings (the only time this happened).

After the Norman Conquest, things become even more complicated: William I was followed by his second surviving son William II, in turn followed by his younger brother Henry, while his elder brother Robert was still alive; Henry was then followed by a junior nephew, Stephen, over the head of his own elder brother, and Stephen passed over his own son for the succession to give the crown to Henry II. Henry II made his eldest son Henry king during his own lifetime, another first, but Henry the Young King predeceased him and Richard inherited the lot. But on Richard I's death, he was succeeded by his youngest brother John, rather than his more "senior" nephew Arthur. In fact the first succession where a king was succeeded by a son while he had any brothers still alive was as late as 1272. All of these successions took place in the context of wars, one way or another. And questions over the precise mechanics of the succession endured for ages even after that: both the Hundred Years War and the Wars of the Roses were, on paper, wars about whether senior female lines took precedence over junior male lines. Even as late as 1707, Parliament in Great Britain (as it was then) considered it had the power to rewrite the line of succession, culling dozens of candidates.

Point being, if anyone talks about "the rightful heir" to the kingdom of England prior to about 1250, they either don't know what they're talking about or they have an agenda. And while GRRM doesn't get everything right from a historical-verisimilitude-perspective, this kind of legal quagmire is something I am certain he intended to bring across into his work.

[Mechalich]

If I remember rightly, Jaehaerys actually had two Great Councils. The first was after his son Aemond was killed, and settled on Baelon as his heir. Then after Baelon died he called the second, more controversial one, which selected the future Viserys I.

There wasn't a council in the first case, Jaehaerys just made a decision after Aemon's death that the new heir would be his son Baelon rather than his granddaughter Rhaenys, Aemon's eldest child. The Great Council was actually primarily a contest between Rhaenys' son Laenor Velaryon (Jaehaerys great-grandson) and Viserys. Note that the Great Council's outcome was not really controversial at all - Viserys I was selected by a 20 to 1 margin over Laenor in the final vote (after various lesser candidates had been eliminated). That means the actual vote count was something like 955 to 45.

The show appears to have conflated these two events by suggesting the contest was between Rhaenys and Viserys at the Great Council. This is not unreasonable, Laenor was a young child at the time, so had he been chosen, Rhaenys would have reigned as Queen Regent for at least a few years. The show has also played up the ethnic element of the decision, by making the Velaryons black (or black with white hair anyway), though it would have been present initially as well, since voting for Laenor essentially meant voting for the Targaryens to be replaced by the Velaryons (though Laenor and his sister Laera are dragonriders, so they have whatever genetic component is necessary for that).

[Saintheart]

Like many things in the history of ASoIaF, this has parallels in English history, although the ASoIaF version is if anything a bit less messy. Because the English succession has run on primogeniture for ages, there's an assumption that it always did, but for the first 90-dd years of the kingdom the kingdom ran effectively on seniority (i.e. kings were succeeded by their brothers in preference to their sons), then for the next 50 years there were multiple instances of elected kings, whether de jure or de facto, from four different dynasties, and three of whom had no blood relationship to previous kings (the only time this happened).

Give me a break, I was a CK3 n00b and didn't know how to farm Piety and Prestige (or how genetic traits worked, TBH).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Saintheart
Give me a break, I was a CK3 n00b and didn't know how to farm Piety and Prestige....

...please explain? Makes no sense.

[Eldan]

CK3 is Crusader Kings 3, a game where you manage a dynasty of medieval royals. Piety and Prestige are two stats, if you lose too much prestige, you may lose your dynasty. Or you may get the inheritance laws changed on you by your council, from something like primogeniture to dynastic seniority or even elective monarchy.

[KorvinStarmast]

What's wrong with the third trilogy?

I love Fitz, I love the Fool, but Robin gave us phone books.