New Games of Thrones TV Series Premieres on Sunday

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes. She did that. And Cersei was doing exactly the same thing... Prostituting herself in exchange for something. And it fits her characterization.

And Cersei was, IIRC in the books, in a desperate position as one by one her allies were either dying or disappearing ...

But we are not reading the book. We are watching the series... The story is being framed as factual events happening in real time.

Hence my question on book versus show.

The characters in the show have to be consistent with how they're portrayed in the show, not in other versions of the story containing other versions of the characters.

My various rants in re Galadriel in LoTR, the Silmarillion, and the RoP show considered, that is a fair point (but it's a real pain if you've read the book and the character is a lot different from what's in the book).

That scene doesn't say "Alicent is oppressed by the patriarchy". Larys has no power over her. It says "Alicent is either lazy, stupid or both".

Or desperate. For how many years was she there, queen to the reluctant king, and her father wasn't there (having been dismissed by the King?) I need to go back and check out a few previous episodes, was Otto fired in Ep 5 or 6? The time leaps (since I have not read the books) are not helping me put the picture together.

Given how murderous Show Larys is -

Spoiler

Show

having killed his own father and brother just to get Otto back into the position of King's Hand

Crap, was that at the wedding? I am sure I saw it but I guess it didn't register.

I think Alicent knows how precarious her safety is in any dealings with him - and tries to strike a balance between "humouring the dangerous, unstable ally" and "avoiding doing things she finds unacceptably debasing".

And until daddy gets back she has no protector other than the King. But I guess that she dare not confide in him, else daddy does not get to come back and be the Hand?

[hamishspence]

For how many years was she there, queen to the reluctant king, and her father wasn't there (having been dismissed by the King?) I need to go back and check out a few previous episodes, was Otto fired in Ep 5 or 6? The time leaps (since I have not read the books) are not helping me put the picture together.

Otto was fired in Episode 4.

Crap, was that at the wedding? I am sure I saw it but I guess it didn't register.

Episode 6 was the one in question. It's 10 years after Episode 5, which is only very shortly after Episode 4. So she spends 10 years without her father as Hand.

[Lemmy]

She did sell her favors for his service... Now, you can argue she was desperate and/or had a good reason to do that (debatable), but that's exactly what she did. There's no oppression there. She wants him as her ally, so she agreed to do it in exchange for him being her ally.

She's the queen. She's not being forced to do anything. The only person who can order her around is the king, who, as we've seen time and time again, rarely exercised any authority... over her or anyone else.

It's not just her, either... The scene is a disservice to both characters, as well as the show as a whole. Larys was a much more interesting character when he was this dark SOUL whose motives and desires were unclear. Now he does all he does... For a foot fetish. *sigh*

Rhaenys killing a bunch of people without a second though for no reason other than making a theatrical exit suffers from a similar problem.

This stings even worse because both Alicent and Rhaenys were (at least IMO) the only two sympathetic characters left in the show.

[hamishspence]

There's no oppression there. She wants him as her ally, so she agreed to do it in exchange for him being her ally.

She's the queen. She's not being forced to do anything. The only person who can order her around is the king,

The fact that he's a murderous spymaster with many henchmen, and that she's already turned a blind eye to his crimes, makes her position less straightforward - declining demands he makes is dangerous for her.

The scene is a disservice to both characters, as well as the show as a whole. Larys was a much more interesting character when he was this dark SOUL whose motives and desires were unclear. Now he does all he does... For a foot fetish. *sigh*

It's the power trip that matters to him. If he wanted to satisfy himself, he could hire a professional. What matters to him is knowing that he has enough of a hold over the Queen that she's willing to do things she is uncomfortable with.

[Lemmy]

The fact that he's a murderous spymaster with many henchmen, and that she's already turned a blind eye to his crimes, makes her position less straightforward - declining demands he makes is dangerous for her.

You say it as if she couldn't literally call the guards that very same moment and tell them to gut him where he stands. She doesn't do that and instead goes with his desires because... She wants him as an ally and is willing to provide sexual favors for it.

That's not oppression. That's a transaction. She doesn't even appear to be afraid of him... Just annoyed.

It's the power trip that matters to him. If he wanted to satisfy himself, he could hire a professional. What matters to him is knowing that he has enough of a hold over the Queen that she's willing to do things she is uncomfortable with.

Doesn't matter the details of his fetish... The fact that he does all the evil he does because of a kink really detracts from the character.

[hamishspence]

You say it as if she couldn't literally call the guards that very same moment and tell them to gut him where he stands.

For all she knows, some of the guards are part of his network.

That's the problem of dealing with a spymaster - you can never be certain which of your servants really answer to them instead of you.

She doesn't even appear to be afraid of him... Just annoyed.

Putting a brave face on.

The fact that he does all the evil he does because of a kink really detracts from the character.

Except he doesn't. He does things for power, and to increase the power of his allies, as well as "to gratify himself".

Having a kink doesn't mean that everything he does is in the service of that kink.

[KorvinStarmast]

The scene is a disservice to both characters, as well as the show as a whole. Larys was a much more interesting character when he was this dark SOUL whose motives and desires were unclear.

I agree. Adding the creep factor does not, for me, improve the character.

The fact that he's a murderous spymaster with many henchmen, and that she's already turned a blind eye to his crimes, makes her position less straightforward - declining demands he makes is dangerous for her.

Well, while Viserys was still king he'd probably not move against her, but as the king's health fails she needs to watch out for herself. Back to desperate.

It's the power trip that matters to him. If he wanted to satisfy himself, he could hire a professional. What matters to him is knowing that he has enough of a hold over the Queen that she's willing to do things she is uncomfortable with.

While I had not thought of that, it fits.

She doesn't do that and instead goes with his desires because... She wants him as an ally ... She doesn't even appear to be afraid of him... Just annoyed.

That's how it came across to me.
Maybe the larger message is that you can't get involved in politics without getting some dirt on you ... but I better be careful about that due to forum rules.

[Lemmy]

For all she knows, some of the guards are part of his network.

That's the problem of dealing with a spymaster - you can never be certain which of your servants really answer to them instead of you.

Putting a brave face on.

Except he doesn't. He does things for power, and to increase the power of his allies, as well as "to gratify himself".

Having a kink doesn't mean that everything he does is in the service of that kink.

The issue here is that that's an awful lot of assumptions there... And nothing that was actually shown onscreen.

We are not shown the soldiers around her being loyal to him... Never mind loyal enough to be willing to kill the queen at his order. And that's before taking Sir Cole in consideration.

We are not shown her "putting a brave face", we are shown her being clearly annoyed. She "put a brave face" when Rhaenys' dragon was in from of her family... And her expression and demeanor are clearly different from the scene with Larys.

We are not even shown Larys displaying any interest in power, money or anything else... Other than the queen's feet. And she took the deal... Begrudgingly, but willingly.

So, yeah, both characters are made considerably weaker and far less interesting in that scene... But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Ramza00]

For all she knows, some of the guards are part of his network.

That's the problem of dealing with a spymaster - you can never be certain which of your servants really answer to them instead of you.
Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
Putting a brave face on.
Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
Except he doesn't. He does things for power, and to increase the power of his allies, as well as "to gratify himself".

Having a kink doesn't mean that everything he does is in the service of that kink.

I want to circle back to something hamishspence said, and other posters.

We have i) Knowledge, ii) we have Power and from those two things iii) some people think we can skip ahead to Mastery saying if person A or R was playing the game well they would make this move inside the game for that is Mastery. Put another way this iii) is a certain form of “Gaze” focused on winning.

But winning on what? All of these characters do not want war. Instead they have desires, desires born out of some form of fissure where the system feels suffocating on the actors. Yes the show is talking about the Patriarchy, but the system of Feudalism in this show also messes with the Kings desire, the lords desires, the small folk desires, etc, etc. all of these actions make sense if we ask what is character L or A or R’s desire.

Yes there is a panopticon system of spies by several people, Larys has some, Mysaria / Lady Mysery / Daemon’s Paramour from over 20 years ago has her own spies, and likely there are other players inside this game.

Larys is dangerous not because he is a cop who has his whisperers. Larys is dangerous when he can predict your desire, either by cold reading you well at the Godswood or figuring out your desire later on. And since this is a narrative Larys will be able to read your desire some of the time, but sometime at a key moment he is going to fail.

=====

Likewise the foot thing we should not be seeing just as a kink. It may be a kink, but we should also read Larys desire and why he would want that as coin? Perhaps it is a feat thing, or perhaps, it is a reminder of power, or perhaps it is something else aI have not thought of. Likewise what is Aegon’s desire, Aemond’s desire, so on and so on (I focused on Greens since this was a green focused episode.)

Focusing on knowledge of what we as the all seeing viewer knows (for we see more than the characters, they have partial points of view), or focusing on power…I feel you also need to focus on Desire of each character to see the cause and effect, and to understand the storytelling magic / prestige that occurs with the twists and tension.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The issue here is that that's an awful lot of assumptions there... And nothing that was actually shown onscreen.

We are not even shown Larys displaying any interest in power, money or anything else... Other than the queen's feet. And she took the deal... Begrudgingly, but willingly.

So, yeah, both characters are made considerably weaker and far less interesting in that scene... But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

This I firmly disagree on because we have direct evidence to the contrary, Larys big notable act of evil (burning his brother and father) was done without any indication that Alicent wanted it or would repay him in any way shape or form let alone by satisfying a kink of his. If I remember right, his comments about the matter imply he does it because Alicent told him to do it (she didn't) and it showed the Queen that he supported her. In the Behind the Scenes video after, the staff of the show explicitly call it out that Larys did this under the guise of 'I'll do this for you now because it will help get you in a position to repay me later on with more than you can now'. In other words, he's betting on Alicent in the coming succession crisis that anyone with a working brain could see coming and decides to help her succeed to bank on a big pay day down the line.

What does this have to do with the scene from the previous episode?

If Larys was solely motivated by his sexual desires, none of the above would have resolved the way it did. Larys would have murdered his family, Alicent would have asked him why he did this with a horrified expression, and he would have said 'well, I was hoping you would flash me some ankle and we'll call it even'. So I disagree that it makes either character considerably weaker or less interesting cause it brings up an interesting fact. Episode recaps keep bringing up Otto saying that he didn't think Alicent had the steel in her to play the game of thrones but he was proven wrong but despite that..we still don't really see it. Alicent still tries to stay on the up and up, she still tries to do things the right way to protect her family and, ostensibly, because its the right thing to do. The only times we do see it? Is when she actively moves against her father to stop Otto's designs of assassination as a means of ending the succession crisis before it can really take off...and the fact that after the most recent time skip, she doesn't seem scared of Larys anymore and Larys no longer has a clear upper hand in their dynamic either.

What we do see is a more mutually beneficial relationship between the two. Larys gets something he desires and Alicent something she does, the difference being that Larys is no longer getting something of equal value. He gets his kicks as payment, but kicks are a temporary boon. Alicent is meanwhile securing a potentially unstable ally as a stable one to her side for the small price of taking off her shoes and socks. And despite the clearly seedy implications about the act, she doesn't balk at it like she would have even one time skip ago when her son got blinded in one eye. She does have steel in her that she's slowly revealing, it is simply not in the way that others would expect to see it..primarily her father. She comes out as more competent and interesting.

Larys does not come out of it looking more competent, but he does more flawed and human. Before, he was a generic spymaster character who was well spoken, not traditionally powerful, and full of the smugness of being the most well-iformed man in the room. In other words, no different from the Spider, Littlefinger, or the corrupt Maester. He had nothing to set him apart, now he has the beginnings of something behind the murderous spymaster archetype. For one, he has weaknesses that someone is seemingly exploiting to keep him loyal. Again, he's giving up important information for something that costs Alicent nothing. Nothing physical or social in any case, probably just a bit of comfortableness...but even then, I'd argue it doesn't really bother her because she seems completely at ease around Larys otherwise.

[2D8HP]

And that's before taking Sir Cole in consideration.

Speaking of Sir Cole, how he came to be so devoted to Alicent (and not condemned as a murderer) during the time skip is a frustrating mystery to me!

[Ramza00]

Speaking of Sir Cole, how he came to be so devoted to Alicent (and not condemned as a murderer) during the time skip is a frustrating mystery to me!

We are outside the culture of The Seven Kingdoms, and that is why it is exciting. Sir Criston Cole is an attack dog, he is a murderer, yet since he is a Kingsguard he is “their” murderer.

We do not know what story he spun after the murder of a minor knight at the wedding of the King’s daughter to House Velaryon. We do know Sir Cole who was on the Kingsguard became the Queen’s Sworn Sword, and he bound himself to her at the sacred place (the Godswood) when he was considering suicide.

We may get a flashback later, or we may not. There seems to be lots of changes from Fire and Blood the book and episode 8, for in the book lore after the fact the Maesters said it was Cole and not Otto who made the fateful decision and it was Cole who said bar the doors. Yet we should not trust the book lore for it is written by Maesters decades after the fact, they were not in the room when the events happen, and lastly we know the show is changing stuff such as the age of characters and the deaths of other characters.

[KorvinStarmast]

Speaking of Sir Cole, how he came to be so devoted to Alicent (and not condemned as a murderer) during the time skip is a frustrating mystery to me!

Alicent earned his loyalty when he came to her, confessed his affair with Rhaenyra, and accepted that he'd be punished and begged her mercy "just kill me, don't let them mutilate me" ... and she forgave him and kept his secret to herself. Why he wasn't taken to task for the "face pulping" murder at the wedding feast remains to me a mystery also.

{interesting critique}

I find your take on this to be well reasoned.

I finally read all of Glen Weldon's 'episode recaps' to pick up on details (and to enjoy a little snark). Doing that helped me fit some pieces together a bit better than watching the show has done. (For example, I had forgotten that it was Laeron on a dragon who had made the crucial difference in the battle with the Crabfeeder).

Looking forward to the season finale.

[KorvinStarmast]

The season finale was well played.
Looking forward to next season.
Things to like:

Spoiler: stuff I liked

Show

1. Dragon vs Dragon dog fighting in a thunderstorm at low level. (Sorry, as a pilot, that stuff is for me good on its own merit.
2. Daemon's utter cynicism as to "we have more dragons than they do."
3. Rhaenyra: she was the centerpiece of this show, finally being queen like rather than that spoiled little {censored} as the season began.
4. Princess Rhaenys.
5. Lord Corlys, going through the process of having to choose sides.
6. The knight who brought here the crown. Nice! wasn't sure why he was in the previous episodes.

What I didn't like: failure to melt Otto Hightower on that bridge/causeway.
I will guess that in the book she didn't do that.
Otto Hightower was the center of gravity of the usurper, and the treasonous, party. He is the heart of the Greens.
Given the chance, taking him down was the smart move.
If Martin wrote him living through that kind of confrontation, then Martin has lost his touch.
Glad I stopped buying his books when it became obvious that he was never going to finish what he started.

[Lemmy]

That's a really good episode...

Spoiler

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I'm kinda surprised that they chose to make the fight that sparks the conflict more nuanced. IIRC, in the original lore, that was far more clear cut, with Aemond downright using the opportunity to get revenge for his eye, instead of the killing happening by accident.

I'm glad the series managed to stick to landing. With everything else we've seen lately, it was already a surprised that HotD turned out to be good... The fact that it stayed good and only really had a couple bad scenes is almost shocking, TBH.

Hopefully they can sustain this level of quality in the writing of future seasons. And hopefully they also don't stretch this too much... 3~4 seasons should more than suffice.

We'll see... I'm cautiously optimistic (but I'm still not buying any of GRRM's books or merchandise ever again).

[Ramza00]

The season finale was well played.
Looking forward to next season.
Things to like:

Spoiler: stuff I liked

Show

1. Dragon vs Dragon dog fighting in a thunderstorm at low level. (Sorry, as a pilot, that stuff is for me good on its own merit.
2. Daemon's utter cynicism as to "we have more dragons than they do."
3. Rhaenyra: she was the centerpiece of this show, finally being queen like rather than that spoiled little {censored} as the season began.
4. Princess Rhaenys.
5. Lord Corlys, going through the process of having to choose sides.
6. The knight who brought here the crown. Nice! wasn't sure why he was in the previous episodes.

What I didn't like: failure to melt Otto Hightower on that bridge/causeway.
I will guess that in the book she didn't do that.
Otto Hightower was the center of gravity of the usurper, and the treasonous, party. He is the heart of the Greens.
Given the chance, taking him down was the smart move.
If Martin wrote him living through that kind of confrontation, then Martin has lost his touch.
Glad I stopped buying his books when it became obvious that he was never going to finish what he started.
Other authors ought to take notice of that failure; it alienates fans.

The Crown Knight is an identical twin, and both twins are on the Kingsguard and they have the same name besides the vowels Arr vs Err as the prefix for their name (Arryk and Erryk). Queen Alicent literally can't tell them apart and gets them confused (this scene was on purpose to establish them as middle-ground-ish characters and not background window dressing.)

And these brothers in arms are now on opposing sides of this family drama.

[TheSummoner]

Spoiler

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I'm kinda surprised that they chose to make the fight that sparks the conflict more nuanced. IIRC, in the original lore, that was far more clear cut, with Aemond downright using the opportunity to get revenge for his eye, instead of the killing happening by accident.

I'll preface this by saying that I haven't actually read Fire & Blood, but my understanding is the story is told as a complication of accounts from a group of unreliable narrators with sometimes conflicting accounts of events. As for that specifically and how it would tie into multiple accounts from unreliable narrators...

Spoiler

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No one save Aemond would see it firsthand and live to tell the tale. The idea that Aemond killed him intentionally is the natural conclusion anyone would come to when all that's known for certain is that the two were on the verge of fighting the last anyone saw Luke and all that was left afterwards were bloody bits of dragon. No one would believe Aemond if he tried to claim it was an accident and I'm not sure he would bother even making the claim. For one thing, he'd probably know no one would believe him and for another he'd be admitting he lost control of Vhagar, which I imagine he'd not want people knowing.

I'm glad the series managed to stick to landing. With everything else we've seen lately, it was already a surprised that HotD turned out to be good... The fact that it stayed good and only really had a couple bad scenes is almost shocking, TBH.

Hopefully they can sustain this level of quality in the writing of future seasons. And hopefully they also don't stretch this too much... 3~4 seasons should more than suffice.

We'll see... I'm cautiously optimistic (but I'm still not buying any of GRRM's books or merchandise ever again).

It truly is a pleasant surprise, especially after how bad GoT near the end. Say what you want about George, but he knows how to craft a good story. As long as HBO listens to him this time, the show will turn out fine.

I'm with you on still not buying his books. Finish Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring and I'll reverse that, but not a cent until then.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm with you on still not buying his books. Finish Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring and I'll reverse that, but not a cent until then.

This needs to be made into a t-shirt.
Only reason I started watching is that we got free HBO Max with our phone plan (unasked for) so I figured I'd take a look. My wife dislikes it, but then, she didn't much care for GoT.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'm with you on still not buying his books. Finish Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring and I'll reverse that, but not a cent until then.

Certainly a lengthy way to say you'll never buy one again ;P

As for the show itself, why couldn't RoP be this good?

[TheSummoner]

Ego.

This article from two days ago is about The Witcher, but what's discussed is hardly unique to that show and I'd be willing to bet a rather large sum that despite the showrunners claims otherwise, it applies to Rings of Power as well.

"I've been on show - namely Witcher - where some of the writers were not or actively disliked the books and games (even actively mocking the source material)," DeMayo explained. "It's a recipe for disaster and bad morale. Fandom as a litmus test checks egos, and makes all the long nights worth it. You have to respect the work before you're allowed to add to its legacy."

In other words, in many cases, the showrunners don't respect the material that they're being paid to adapt. They think it's beneath them. They think it's dumb and they think the people who like it are dumb as well. The show needs to be "modernized" and adapted for "modern audiences," meaning that the source material need is wrong and needs to be corrected and made for people who like what the writers like rather than people who like the original. They think they can do better and that they should be doing their own original thing instead the thing that it's their job to make. It can be any of these things or all of them or similar things that I didn't list, but it all boils down to the problem being that the people behind the show don't respect the source material.

In HotD's case, the main showrunner was a fan of GoT (who funnily enough had been hired by Amazon to do a Conan series before being let go because they didn't like his concept) and you've got the original author on board. It's in good hands because the people at the helm respect what they're adapting.

[Lemmy]

Yup. Another common problem is that too many producers and show-runners want to use their shows as a soapbox to spread their social-political ideology instead of worrying about telling a good story... As the hack J.J.Abrams said "It's not about Star Trek, it's about using Star Trek to send a message".

When your goal is essentially turning beloved franchises into propaganda, it's no surprise the final product ends up being garbage.

[Wintermoot]

"It's not about Star Trek, it's about using Star Trek to send a message"..

This is.... literally... the core purpose of Star Trek from day one. Unashamedly and unabashedly.

[Lemmy]

This is.... literally... the core purpose of Star Trek from day one. Unashamedly and unabashedly.

There's a pretty big difference between having a show with social-political themes with the goal of making you think about them... And turning it into shameless partisan propaganda that expects you to swallow their "message" and not even care whether the characters, story or setting are consistent or even make sense, going as far as portraying anyone who disagrees as hateful and stupid.

Even the original ST, which wasn't exactly subtle, knew how to balance the two and always took care to respect its story AND the audience's intelligence.

Anyway, if you'd like, we can discuss it somewhere else... Let's try not to derail the thread.

[TheSummoner]

I'd say that falls under ego, "modernizing" (read: changing it to be about what the writer cares about rather than what the source is actually about) and adapting for a "modern audience" (read: the writer and people like the writer) and that lumping it under that wider umbrella rather than going into specifics is probably better as far as the rules are concerned.

Not a Star Trek fan, but from the outside looking in, I was always under the impression it was about presenting a hopeful, enlightened vision of the future

[GloatingSwine]

In Star Trek's case it's more like retaining the heart of the property as a progressive work not "progressive-for-the-1960s" which some people would seemingly rather it stay...

[Lemmy]

In Star Trek's case it's more like retaining the heart of the property as a progressive work not "progressive-for-the-1960s" which some people would seemingly rather it stay...

I'd say it's more about being subtle and respecting your audience's intelligence... Rather than ignoring well established setting and character elements just to make them fit a very heavy-handed message (and a message that is debatable, at best). There's a reason not every social-political commentary is considered heavy-handed and not all media with social-political themes is called propaganda.

We have a good example right here... There's some clear social-political commentary in HotD, and while some of it is overly simplistic, it never feels shallow, heavy-handed or hateful, like some other modern series with similar themes do.

[Ramza00]

Yup. Another common problem is that too many producers and show-runners want to use their shows as a soapbox to spread their social-political ideology instead of worrying about telling a good story... As the hack J.J.Abrams said "It's not about Star Trek, it's about using Star Trek to send a message".

When your goal is essentially turning beloved franchises into propaganda, it's no surprise the final product ends up being garbage.

😕 🤔 it is only a social-political ideology when one feels like they are “the other” in the room.

When it is catering to your pre-existing understanding, or expanding your point of view building on that structure without creating an abrupt rupture, it is not social-political ideology (except it is, does the *its pure ideology gesture*)

We have a good example right here... There's some clear social-political commentary in HotD, and while some of it is overly simplistic, it never feels shallow, heavy-handed or hateful, like some other modern series with similar themes do.

This part I agree with, Martin in the books was always doing so much ideological work that people do not realize what he was doing.

The exception to this is the Slavers Bay scenes with Dany and the Dothraki scenes with Dany. But this two was on purpose, Dany in the books is a 13 year old girl at the start of it (it has been 3 years now), she first saw the Dothraki as The Others, but learns how their culture works and over different chapters has a fundamental perspective shift and the literal style of the chapters shift.

She is literally incapable of doing this with Slavers Bay (I do not blame her, just explaining), to her eyes the culture is fundamentally the Other, and she refuses to learn about it for she sees slavery as perverse, but there is so much more to the culture besides slavery (even if it’s the center of the economy) yet Dany can not let herself learn it due to disgust and thus she feels weighed down via moving through this world afraid it may contaminate her (which it might.)

Blah, blah, blah culture of Narcissus, the ego, the ego-ideal, and the super-ego. This last bit is not making an argument yet Martin is weaving this stuff through his stories but people do not notice for it is so natural and engaging. Likewise this Hot D show is doing the same.

[Tyndmyr]

This is.... literally... the core purpose of Star Trek from day one. Unashamedly and unabashedly.

Which just demonstrates how much of a hack Abrams was. Even the slightest bit of research would have given him some illuminating context.

Imagine if someone was adapting Tolkien, and said "It's not about remaining true to the original, it's about fantasy." You would have concerns.

[Wintermoot]

Which just demonstrates how much of a hack Abrams was. Even the slightest bit of research would have given him some illuminating context.

Imagine if someone was adapting Tolkien, and said "It's not about remaining true to the original, it's about fantasy." You would have concerns.

I love this.

Person 1: Abrams is a hack because he is pushing his social agenda on the property of Star Trek!

Rebuttal: Pushing Social Agent is a core principle of Star Trek and always has been.

Person 2: Abrams is a hack because he isn't pushing social agenda on the property of Star Trek!

and, yeah, I know. different people have different opinions. But it hilarious to see two people decide the same thing for opposite reasons. Whichever way the wind blows gets you to your end goal I guess.

[KorvinStarmast]

One of the reasons that LoTR (the three movies) even with some odd additions and deletions, worked so well was that the whole creative team were very much into LoTR. They were fans, first. Oh, and they had to cut some stuff out (Bombadil, for example) to try and keep the thing a reasonable length.

Hobbit got expanded and it suffered.

GoT had to figure out its own ending, since George hadn't yet.

HotD has the apparent good fortune to have the story (Fire and Blood?) and Dance of Dragons more or less in complete form. The writers are hopefully 'into' the stories, and all that needs figuring out is what to trim and what to add so that it fits the TV medium.