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2022-09-02, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
My personal theory is the IFCC don't know about the outsider mind-wipe between worlds, as it's suggested the Gods keep that information to themselves. I like the fact everyone thus far in the comic makes plans with the information they have, not from an omniscient standpoint, and everyone's missing a few cards from a winning hand.
Also, in the scene where one of the IFCC told V that possessing their body would be a breach of contract; I have real trouble following which fiend is which, so which fiend said it? I feel like it might be a concern for Lee and Nero for their soul-grab durations, but Cedrik might go full basketball-dog on their allotted time.
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2022-09-02, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal."
I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.
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2022-09-02, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Indeed, particularly because it's not unreasonable to think that Qarr is aware of the various restrictions involved with Outsiders acting on the material plane and it's being spelled out in the conversation primarily for the benefit of the readers who wouldn't have prior knowledge of the situation.
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2022-09-02, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-09-03, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
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2022-09-03, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Perhaps enforcing a deal is close enough to making one that it also counts? In any case, they also said they can't possess V's body, so I'd call that even less likely. I do know that it just seems naive to assume the involuntary visits to Hell taking V out of action are going to be as bad as that gets. It can get so much worse.
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2022-09-03, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
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2022-09-03, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-09-03, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-09-03, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
You may be overinterpreting what's been established previously. Certainly what's there doesn't contradict the first part of my idea re: them spending a timeshare on the mortal plane instead of in Hell, since just traveling there isn't "acting directly."
I'll add that "breaking the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed" isn't entirely unprecedented. Hel tried to straight up smite Durkon last book after it had been pretty thoroughly established that Gods aren't allowed to do such things simply because she thought she could get away with it, and I'm not going to go broke betting on a bunch of fiends to be more honest than her when the chips are really down.Last edited by TRH; 2022-09-03 at 09:08 PM.
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2022-09-03, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
You said they would break the Gate. That's as blatantly "acting directly" as can be.
I'm sure there are some creative uses of the claim on V's soul to remove V from the action that might affect the situation in a way I haven't thought of. Heck, maybe it never comes up and just hangs over V's head for a lifetime.
I'm also confident that if they didn't interfere when it would have greatly benefited them to do so, when they told their new associate they couldn't, it's because they actually can't, rather than that they lied to avoid doing something that would greatly benefit them.
You're also assuming "we can only act on the mortal plane" is some kind of rule they've agreed to follow, when it might be an actual metaphysical restriction on their existence baked into the universe. They are outsiders, not gods.
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2022-10-13, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
I’ve been thinking more about this and no it doesn’t diminish because ultimately the Dark One is not good for Goblin’s interests.
The Dark One’s stated goal is Goblin Equality. But his power comes from being the only Goblin God. His mythology centres on stories of how everyone hates Goblins so only he can provide for them. But true Goblin Equality means the Goblins should have freedom of religion to choose any god. Which means the Dark One has less or even no power. Therefore for the Dark One to survive, the Goblin race needs to suffer. It’s an inherent contradiction which is a bad deal for Goblins. It would hit even harder if the Dark One was no Goblin at all. Perhaps it would even get Redcloak to switch sides.
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2022-10-13, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
I don't see why that is. Once the goblins are granted their proper place, the Dark One, as the first of the Fourth Pantheon would be likely to transition into the role of leader of his divine clan, like Odin, Dragon and Marduk, with a portfolio of rulership and war (probably as "defender of the goblin people").
His mythology includes him making two attempts to peacefully co-operate, so he shouldn't be unable to co-operate in the way that Loki is unable to tell the truth and as goblin society morphs, their understanding of him would too, changing him into a less angry version of himself (may even shift his alignment out of "Evil", who knows?)Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-10-13, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-10-13, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Is that actually true? Or is it that the Gods will not accept goblin worshippers because the goblins were created in this world to be cannon fodder for their followers to fight and kill to gain more levels and more powerful souls so the gods would get more bountiful harvests? I may be misremembering something (and don't have SoD handy), but I thought that was somewhat the whole thing about goblins and why TDO rose to power in the first place.
As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).
Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".
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2022-10-13, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
It is the least charitable interpretation of the god's actions possible.
As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).
Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".
I don't think it's any way about who worships the dark One or not, Redcloak has no real reaction to Oona telling him her people doesn't really care about the Dark One.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-10-13, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Sure. But Redcloak is also correct that their "creator(s)" abandoned them to this fate. So blame Fenris I suppose.
His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though. He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham). On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.
I assume that is the sort of "equality" that Redcloak is seeking.
Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO. The bugbears as a culture may not have the same organized form of worship that the goblins have, complete with clerics and temples and whatnot, but it doesn't follow that if they did, they'd choose to worship some other deities instead of TDO. It's presumably not out of the question, of course, in the same way that I suppose it's possible to find a Dwarf who worships Marduk. Rare, but possible.
It's still a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of dwarves are going to worship the northern gods, right? Same deal here. And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.
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2022-10-13, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
I've not seen any scene in which a deity rejected the worship of a goblin, so it is difficult to extrapolate what circumstances would cause such a rejection.
Thor encouraged the persecution of goblins because they were a convenient target and he never really thought much more about it. I can understand why they never offered him worship. But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?
I don't think there is enough information to say that 'All' or even 'Most' deities rejected goblin worship, though 'Some' obviously did. I think it is more plausible that goblins rejected the gods, but that is a guess at best.
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2022-10-13, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
I would also imagine it's possible for a deity to reject worship in the same sense that it's possible for me to reject water thrown on me.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-10-14, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Maybe, but it is explicitly one of the things he wants.
He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham).
On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.
Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO.
And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.
Thor didn't encourage it. He just didn't do anything either way.
But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?Forum Wisdom
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2022-10-14, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
As will I. I know that V told Roy about the familicide, but did V tell Roy about being taken away by the fiends, and owing them two more trips? I don't recall seeing that "on screen"
Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to treat the roaches as possible IFCC agents.
I'd argue that insofar as they are relevant to the Directors' designs, the Azurites and the Order really aren't separate teams.
Not sure about unwitting, but uncertain about when the two additional payments will come due.
Which is what goblins have been canonically in D&D since about 1974: minions of an evil wizard or evil cult/priest. And it's how they started out in DCF and OtOotPCs: minions of a powerful, evil lich. He did say it was a reach.
Outer planes, if we are dealing with D&D ish style cosmology. The astral plane is its own thing.
My speculation about apotheosis is that when a powerful enough mortal gains sufficient worship via their acts *and* fills some niche that isn't currently filled by an existing deity, then the gods most closely aligned with that mortal may infuses them with divine power and make them a god.
TDO is unique in that his area was already unfilled (leader of the goblins) *and* the goblin kind themselves were created specifically in this world to be cannon fodder, with no gods representing them pantheon wise.
This does not preclude the IFCC at some point guiding TDO in his path to becoming his own god.Seems like they want the gates to be destroyed, or at the very least want to hasten the destruction of this world. That seems counter to any deal they may have with TDO, since that would only weaken him and hasten his destruction.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-10-14, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
But their investment in V is solely the ability to take V out of major events or battles so that V can't influence the events or battles, and V dying would accomplish that even better.
First panel
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.htmlLast edited by littlebum2002; 2022-10-14 at 10:09 AM.
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2022-10-14, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-10-14, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
I didn't say that. I said that the difference between a Dwarven worshipper of Thor showing up in a city outside the northern lands (and not being killed on sight) and a Goblin worshiper of TDO showing up in *any* city in *any* of the three regions of the world (and being killed on sight) isn't that the Dwarf worships gods not of that region, or is of a race that's not native to that region, but that the three pantheons have accords and agreements in place, and presumably at least some of those involve allowing the worshippers and races of their respective pantheons and regions to travel without automatically being considered enemies to be killed on sight. Yes, obviously the mortal races have the freedom to engage in their own political squabbles and wars and whatnot, but it's not the same thing that will get a goblin killed just walking up to the front gate.
It's not unreasonable to assume that if TDO and the other pantheons came to a similar agreement that this would change. Maybe not all at once, but over time. And heck, we can argue that Redcloak is already gaining some of that now. Gobbotopia has a peace and sovereign recognition agreement with Cliffport, right? That's a human city. Presumably, they somehow managed to get their goblin representative and their human representatives to sit down at a table and hammer out that agreement (with no killing even!. And presumably, at least part of this may involve trade agreements, which will also presumably include allowing goblin merchants to do business with human merchants in both directions and in both cites (so again, goblins and humans interacting without killing each other).
So that's a step in the direction. Getting pantheon recognition gets them further. Although, I suspect that threatening them with the snarl probably wont get the kind of warm fuzzy reception one might believe.
Sure. I'm not sure how this gets us to an assumption that tons of goblinoids are just aching to worship other gods though. Can we agree that the hobgoblins and their Roy-like attitude for TDO would likely extend to other deities as well? A hobgoblin who just uses another deity for weddings and funerals, but nothing else would not be a big gain/loss for anyone either. The entire discussion somewhat assumes we're examining cases where worship matters, and whether goblin worship could be pointed at others as a result of TDO's actions (and how significant that may be).
Remember, I was responding to someone speculating that Redcloak was fighting for the freedom of goblins to worship other deities than just TDO (or that it might be a consequence of the fight? Honestly forgotten).
I don't know that they aren't allowed. But it does seem strange that we've yet to hear of any goblin anywhere actually worshipping any deity other than TDO, and it's strongly suggested that the entire reason TDO rose to godhood was precisely because the goblins were without any deity and thus had to create their own.
If the solution to the goblins problems was to just start worshiping the existing gods, I suspect they would have been doing that long before TDO ever showed up on the scene, and he'd never have needed to fight (and die, and ascend) the way he did in the first place. We kinda have to assume there's some reason this didn't happen.
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2022-10-14, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
The thing is, I don't think it's a side argument, so much as I think the two go hand in hand. In other words, I think that final sentence and implication, Redcloak is most likely right about.
"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time." Doesn't seem like they agree with you.
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2022-10-14, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
There were goblins at the circus where MitD was first seen. Nobody seemed to be killing them. Perhaps seeing MitD blinded them all.
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2022-10-15, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
But their investment was to get that time to use to actual further their plans. The idea that they would instead use their slots to keep Varsuvius alive so they could then go on to use the slots they don't even have anymore, has never made sense to me.
They obviously want Varsuvius alive, but that's not the same thing as actively going out of their way to make sure that happens, and certainly not by using the resources they've clearly obtained for other purposes. The very nature of the situation means that Varsuvius' life is in near constant danger, but they knew that going into this.Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2022-10-15 at 12:46 PM.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2022-10-28, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-10-28, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
That adds an enormous amount of strategic value. If V was taken out permanently, the Order would need a new wizard, who would be in the party permanently. As is, V can be taken out strategically (eg when V was taken during Girard's Gate saga) so as to help the IFCC further their plans. Not only that, but this also could affects how the Order plans - they must account for the possibility that V may be taken out at any given point while still trying to utilize them to the best of their ability. It's a much more difficult line to walk than simply replacing V with a new wizard or knowing you have no wizard at all.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-10-28, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation
Last edited by drDunkel; 2022-10-28 at 11:53 PM. Reason: I’m awake