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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    My personal theory is the IFCC don't know about the outsider mind-wipe between worlds, as it's suggested the Gods keep that information to themselves. I like the fact everyone thus far in the comic makes plans with the information they have, not from an omniscient standpoint, and everyone's missing a few cards from a winning hand.
    Also, in the scene where one of the IFCC told V that possessing their body would be a breach of contract; I have real trouble following which fiend is which, so which fiend said it? I feel like it might be a concern for Lee and Nero for their soul-grab durations, but Cedrik might go full basketball-dog on their allotted time.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    I don't think they're going to do that, as such, but I'm standing by my prediction that since the deal was worded such that V would spend allotted time with each of the directors to discharge the soul debts, Lee or Nero will come to the Prime Material as part of their deal, and smash the final Gate once it's been located.
    According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal."

    I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal."

    I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.
    Indeed, particularly because it's not unreasonable to think that Qarr is aware of the various restrictions involved with Outsiders acting on the material plane and it's being spelled out in the conversation primarily for the benefit of the readers who wouldn't have prior knowledge of the situation.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Indeed, particularly because it's not unreasonable to think that Qarr is aware of the various restrictions involved with Outsiders acting on the material plane and it's being spelled out in the conversation primarily for the benefit of the readers who wouldn't have prior knowledge of the situation.
    Right, and just to emphasize, if they could interfere, pulling V out before V gets killed and thus preserving their investment in V would be exactly the time you'd think they would do it.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    My personal theory is the IFCC don't know about the outsider mind-wipe between worlds, as it's suggested the Gods keep that information to themselves. I like the fact everyone thus far in the comic makes plans with the information they have, not from an omniscient standpoint, and everyone's missing a few cards from a winning hand.
    This alone shows how much Thor trusts Durkon, sharing very confidential information with him.
    That, or Thor is a moron.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal."

    I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.
    Perhaps enforcing a deal is close enough to making one that it also counts? In any case, they also said they can't possess V's body, so I'd call that even less likely. I do know that it just seems naive to assume the involuntary visits to Hell taking V out of action are going to be as bad as that gets. It can get so much worse.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Perhaps enforcing a deal is close enough to making one that it also counts? In any case, they also said they can't possess V's body, so I'd call that even less likely. I do know that it just seems naive to assume the involuntary visits to Hell taking V out of action are going to be as bad as that gets. It can get so much worse.
    And I think-- while, admittedly, the Giant's commentary for Blood Runs in the Family seems to confirm this-- that a big part of the deal is how such a seemingly minor concession can have drastic consequences. We already saw that happen once.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    And I think-- while, admittedly, the Giant's commentary for Blood Runs in the Family seems to confirm this-- that a big part of the deal is how such a seemingly minor concession can have drastic consequences. We already saw that happen once.
    Given that we saw that happen once, what value is there to the same lesson getting hammered home again twice more without the slightest variation or escalation?

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Given that we saw that happen once, what value is there to the same lesson getting hammered home again twice more without the slightest variation or escalation?
    Beats me, but it seems more plausible than "the deal will, at some point, actually break the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed."

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Beats me, but it seems more plausible than "the deal will, at some point, actually break the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed."
    You may be overinterpreting what's been established previously. Certainly what's there doesn't contradict the first part of my idea re: them spending a timeshare on the mortal plane instead of in Hell, since just traveling there isn't "acting directly."

    I'll add that "breaking the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed" isn't entirely unprecedented. Hel tried to straight up smite Durkon last book after it had been pretty thoroughly established that Gods aren't allowed to do such things simply because she thought she could get away with it, and I'm not going to go broke betting on a bunch of fiends to be more honest than her when the chips are really down.
    Last edited by TRH; 2022-09-03 at 09:08 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    You may be overinterpreting what's been established previously. Certainly what's there doesn't contradict the first part of my idea re: them spending a timeshare on the mortal plane instead of in Hell, since just traveling there isn't "acting directly."
    You said they would break the Gate. That's as blatantly "acting directly" as can be.

    I'm sure there are some creative uses of the claim on V's soul to remove V from the action that might affect the situation in a way I haven't thought of. Heck, maybe it never comes up and just hangs over V's head for a lifetime.

    I'm also confident that if they didn't interfere when it would have greatly benefited them to do so, when they told their new associate they couldn't, it's because they actually can't, rather than that they lied to avoid doing something that would greatly benefit them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    I'll add that "breaking the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed" isn't entirely unprecedented. Hel tried to straight up smite Durkon last book after it had been pretty thoroughly established that Gods aren't allowed to do such things simply because she thought she could get away with it, and I'm not going to go broke betting on a bunch of fiends to be more honest than her when the chips are really down.
    You're also assuming "we can only act on the mortal plane" is some kind of rule they've agreed to follow, when it might be an actual metaphysical restriction on their existence baked into the universe. They are outsiders, not gods.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    It diminishes the goblin's story to have the pivotal event of their history be something given to them by a non-goblin. They go from being the Apple creators to being the Samsung guys. (Does Samsung make anything they invented themselves?)

    As it stands, the goblins made their own destiny and because they did it can't be taken away. A gift can also be taken back.
    I’ve been thinking more about this and no it doesn’t diminish because ultimately the Dark One is not good for Goblin’s interests.

    The Dark One’s stated goal is Goblin Equality. But his power comes from being the only Goblin God. His mythology centres on stories of how everyone hates Goblins so only he can provide for them. But true Goblin Equality means the Goblins should have freedom of religion to choose any god. Which means the Dark One has less or even no power. Therefore for the Dark One to survive, the Goblin race needs to suffer. It’s an inherent contradiction which is a bad deal for Goblins. It would hit even harder if the Dark One was no Goblin at all. Perhaps it would even get Redcloak to switch sides.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLD View Post
    Which means the Dark One has less or even no power. Therefore for the Dark One to survive, the Goblin race needs to suffer.
    I don't see why that is. Once the goblins are granted their proper place, the Dark One, as the first of the Fourth Pantheon would be likely to transition into the role of leader of his divine clan, like Odin, Dragon and Marduk, with a portfolio of rulership and war (probably as "defender of the goblin people").

    His mythology includes him making two attempts to peacefully co-operate, so he shouldn't be unable to co-operate in the way that Loki is unable to tell the truth and as goblin society morphs, their understanding of him would too, changing him into a less angry version of himself (may even shift his alignment out of "Evil", who knows?)
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by PLD View Post
    But true Goblin Equality means the Goblins should have freedom of religion to choose any god.
    But they do. They always have. They freely chose to not worship any god before The Dark One (at least, not in large numbers).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But they do. They always have. They freely chose to not worship any god before The Dark One (at least, not in large numbers).
    Is that actually true? Or is it that the Gods will not accept goblin worshippers because the goblins were created in this world to be cannon fodder for their followers to fight and kill to gain more levels and more powerful souls so the gods would get more bountiful harvests? I may be misremembering something (and don't have SoD handy), but I thought that was somewhat the whole thing about goblins and why TDO rose to power in the first place.


    As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).

    Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    Is that actually true? Or is it that the Gods will not accept goblin worshippers because the goblins were created in this world to be cannon fodder for their followers to fight and kill to gain more levels and more powerful souls so the gods would get more bountiful harvests? I may be misremembering something (and don't have SoD handy), but I thought that was somewhat the whole thing about goblins and why TDO rose to power in the first place.
    It is the least charitable interpretation of the god's actions possible.


    As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).

    Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".
    I don't know, Redcloak at least is fighting for goblins to be able to walk into cities without being treated like vermin.

    I don't think it's any way about who worships the dark One or not, Redcloak has no real reaction to Oona telling him her people doesn't really care about the Dark One.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Sure. But Redcloak is also correct that their "creator(s)" abandoned them to this fate. So blame Fenris I suppose.

    His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though. He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham). On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.

    I assume that is the sort of "equality" that Redcloak is seeking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't think it's any way about who worships the dark One or not, Redcloak has no real reaction to Oona telling him her people doesn't really care about the Dark One.
    Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO. The bugbears as a culture may not have the same organized form of worship that the goblins have, complete with clerics and temples and whatnot, but it doesn't follow that if they did, they'd choose to worship some other deities instead of TDO. It's presumably not out of the question, of course, in the same way that I suppose it's possible to find a Dwarf who worships Marduk. Rare, but possible.

    It's still a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of dwarves are going to worship the northern gods, right? Same deal here. And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    I've not seen any scene in which a deity rejected the worship of a goblin, so it is difficult to extrapolate what circumstances would cause such a rejection.

    Thor encouraged the persecution of goblins because they were a convenient target and he never really thought much more about it. I can understand why they never offered him worship. But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?

    I don't think there is enough information to say that 'All' or even 'Most' deities rejected goblin worship, though 'Some' obviously did. I think it is more plausible that goblins rejected the gods, but that is a guess at best.

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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    I would also imagine it's possible for a deity to reject worship in the same sense that it's possible for me to reject water thrown on me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post

    His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though.
    Maybe, but it is explicitly one of the things he wants.
    He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham).
    I don't understand why you seem to think following a different god would put a target on their back, the Westerners are happy to fight each other despite all following the same pantheon.
    On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.
    Thor can't get the dwarves to stop hating trees, so I really doubt that would work. I mean, it's be a start, but I don't think ot'd be enough.

    Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO.
    It strikes me as very similar to Roy's relationship to the Northern Gods and when died he was sent to the religiously unafilliated afterlife. To me it seems that to worship a God in a way that actively gives them Worship, Souls and Dedication, you've gotta put actual weight into it and not bully his clergy into doing the rituals faster.
    And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.
    But what makes you think that the goblins aren't allowed to worship other gods rather than them collecticely deciding that the gods who threw them under the bus (from their perspective) can go pound sand?
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Thor encouraged the persecution of goblins because they were a convenient target and he never really thought much more about it. I can understand why they never offered him worship.
    Thor didn't encourage it. He just didn't do anything either way.
    But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?
    Are in the same bag as Thor. Hell, the War God of the Northerners is Tyr and he really doesn't like goblins.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'm inclined to do so, personally.
    As will I. I know that V told Roy about the familicide, but did V tell Roy about being taken away by the fiends, and owing them two more trips? I don't recall seeing that "on screen"
    Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to treat the roaches as possible IFCC agents.
    Plausible.
    I'd argue that insofar as they are relevant to the Directors' designs, the Azurites and the Order really aren't separate teams.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio III View Post
    The Dark One could have been secretly sponsored by the IFCC. Still a stretch, but more likely.
    I am trying to see their motive in doing this, but now that you raise it I won't rule it out even though it is a stretch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coppercloud View Post
    ... it was clearly in their best interest to lie so that Vaarsuvius doesn't leave the Order or commit suicide, and instead remains their unwitting pawn until the very end.
    Not sure about unwitting, but uncertain about when the two additional payments will come due.
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    The theory as presented turns the goblins from active agents in creating their own destiny into tools being used by others for purposes having nothing to do with goblin equality.
    Which is what goblins have been canonically in D&D since about 1974: minions of an evil wizard or evil cult/priest. And it's how they started out in DCF and OtOotPCs: minions of a powerful, evil lich.
    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    I don't see the logic of a connection between the Dark One and the IFCC - considering they pretty much ruined his chances.
    He did say it was a reach.
    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I don't think the IFCC had anything to do with the Dark One's rise to godhood. They are outsiders. Manifestations of the astral planes and thus merely conceptual constructs (with sentience, but still).
    Outer planes, if we are dealing with D&D ish style cosmology. The astral plane is its own thing.
    My speculation about apotheosis is that when a powerful enough mortal gains sufficient worship via their acts *and* fills some niche that isn't currently filled by an existing deity, then the gods most closely aligned with that mortal may infuses them with divine power and make them a god.
    Don't they first become a demigod, like that dwarf king who ascended?
    TDO is unique in that his area was already unfilled (leader of the goblins) *and* the goblin kind themselves were created specifically in this world to be cannon fodder, with no gods representing them pantheon wise.
    Fenrir did, but he was a negligent creator and abandoned his responsibilities.
    This does not preclude the IFCC at some point guiding TDO in his path to becoming his own god.
    Seems like they want the gates to be destroyed, or at the very least want to hasten the destruction of this world. That seems counter to any deal they may have with TDO, since that would only weaken him and hasten his destruction.
    Yeah, those two aims do seem to be directly opposed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Right, and just to emphasize, if they could interfere, pulling V out before V gets killed and thus preserving their investment in V would be exactly the time you'd think they would do it.
    But their investment in V is solely the ability to take V out of major events or battles so that V can't influence the events or battles, and V dying would accomplish that even better.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    As will I. I know that V told Roy about the familicide, but did V tell Roy about being taken away by the fiends, and owing them two more trips? I don't recall seeing that "on screen"
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't understand why you seem to think following a different god would put a target on their back, the Westerners are happy to fight each other despite all following the same pantheon.
    I didn't say that. I said that the difference between a Dwarven worshipper of Thor showing up in a city outside the northern lands (and not being killed on sight) and a Goblin worshiper of TDO showing up in *any* city in *any* of the three regions of the world (and being killed on sight) isn't that the Dwarf worships gods not of that region, or is of a race that's not native to that region, but that the three pantheons have accords and agreements in place, and presumably at least some of those involve allowing the worshippers and races of their respective pantheons and regions to travel without automatically being considered enemies to be killed on sight. Yes, obviously the mortal races have the freedom to engage in their own political squabbles and wars and whatnot, but it's not the same thing that will get a goblin killed just walking up to the front gate.

    It's not unreasonable to assume that if TDO and the other pantheons came to a similar agreement that this would change. Maybe not all at once, but over time. And heck, we can argue that Redcloak is already gaining some of that now. Gobbotopia has a peace and sovereign recognition agreement with Cliffport, right? That's a human city. Presumably, they somehow managed to get their goblin representative and their human representatives to sit down at a table and hammer out that agreement (with no killing even!. And presumably, at least part of this may involve trade agreements, which will also presumably include allowing goblin merchants to do business with human merchants in both directions and in both cites (so again, goblins and humans interacting without killing each other).

    So that's a step in the direction. Getting pantheon recognition gets them further. Although, I suspect that threatening them with the snarl probably wont get the kind of warm fuzzy reception one might believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It strikes me as very similar to Roy's relationship to the Northern Gods and when died he was sent to the religiously unafilliated afterlife. To me it seems that to worship a God in a way that actively gives them Worship, Souls and Dedication, you've gotta put actual weight into it and not bully his clergy into doing the rituals faster.
    Sure. I'm not sure how this gets us to an assumption that tons of goblinoids are just aching to worship other gods though. Can we agree that the hobgoblins and their Roy-like attitude for TDO would likely extend to other deities as well? A hobgoblin who just uses another deity for weddings and funerals, but nothing else would not be a big gain/loss for anyone either. The entire discussion somewhat assumes we're examining cases where worship matters, and whether goblin worship could be pointed at others as a result of TDO's actions (and how significant that may be).

    Remember, I was responding to someone speculating that Redcloak was fighting for the freedom of goblins to worship other deities than just TDO (or that it might be a consequence of the fight? Honestly forgotten).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But what makes you think that the goblins aren't allowed to worship other gods rather than them collecticely deciding that the gods who threw them under the bus (from their perspective) can go pound sand?
    I don't know that they aren't allowed. But it does seem strange that we've yet to hear of any goblin anywhere actually worshipping any deity other than TDO, and it's strongly suggested that the entire reason TDO rose to godhood was precisely because the goblins were without any deity and thus had to create their own.

    If the solution to the goblins problems was to just start worshiping the existing gods, I suspect they would have been doing that long before TDO ever showed up on the scene, and he'd never have needed to fight (and die, and ascend) the way he did in the first place. We kinda have to assume there's some reason this didn't happen.

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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though. He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight.
    The thing is, I don't think it's a side argument, so much as I think the two go hand in hand. In other words, I think that final sentence and implication, Redcloak is most likely right about.

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    But their investment in V is solely the ability to take V out of major events or battles so that V can't influence the events or battles, and V dying would accomplish that even better.
    "If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time." Doesn't seem like they agree with you.

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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    There were goblins at the circus where MitD was first seen. Nobody seemed to be killing them. Perhaps seeing MitD blinded them all.

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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    The thing is, I don't think it's a side argument, so much as I think the two go hand in hand. In other words, I think that final sentence and implication, Redcloak is most likely right about.



    "If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time." Doesn't seem like they agree with you.
    But their investment was to get that time to use to actual further their plans. The idea that they would instead use their slots to keep Varsuvius alive so they could then go on to use the slots they don't even have anymore, has never made sense to me.

    They obviously want Varsuvius alive, but that's not the same thing as actively going out of their way to make sure that happens, and certainly not by using the resources they've clearly obtained for other purposes. The very nature of the situation means that Varsuvius' life is in near constant danger, but they knew that going into this.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2022-10-15 at 12:46 PM.
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I guess I was wrong. I still don't see what benefit they could possibly gain from temporarily taking V out of combat that couldn't also be gained by taking V permanently out of combat, but I guess we will find out.
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    I guess I was wrong. I still don't see what benefit they could possibly gain from temporarily taking V out of combat that couldn't also be gained by taking V permanently out of combat, but I guess we will find out.
    That adds an enormous amount of strategic value. If V was taken out permanently, the Order would need a new wizard, who would be in the party permanently. As is, V can be taken out strategically (eg when V was taken during Girard's Gate saga) so as to help the IFCC further their plans. Not only that, but this also could affects how the Order plans - they must account for the possibility that V may be taken out at any given point while still trying to utilize them to the best of their ability. It's a much more difficult line to walk than simply replacing V with a new wizard or knowing you have no wizard at all.
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    Default Re: The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    /../ It's a much more difficult line to walk than simply replacing V with a new wizard or knowing you have no wizard at all.
    Given the party knows they have V on “borrowed time”, they could always just go with getting the recruitment started for the replacement, but I guess the odds of finding someone who’ll fit the bill would be quite discouraging…
    Last edited by drDunkel; 2022-10-28 at 11:53 PM. Reason: I’m awake

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