What Are you Playing 7: Deadly Sims

[LibraryOgre]

There's a notification box you can toggle that'll tell you when someone dies and who, if anyone takes their job when they die.

I found that, and it helped; my current standard set up has the jobs list, the basic inventory, and the information screen.

Still working out juggling jobs properly though, trying to figure out what tasks to short change workers from so you have enough builders to keep houses going up for population growth is quite the trick. I could probably pull back on my farming/orchard worker pools, but they look so pretty when fully worked.

What really helped me was, as soon as I get the first frost, is to tank all of my farms, and, currently, throw them into the mines, because I'm behind on iron production.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well that's The White March part 1 and Act 2 of the main game completed. Finally reached Twin Elms and I'm ready to investigate.

However I've discovered that I really just don't care for the combat and I'm only sticking with the game because the story really is that good. However I also just don't care about some of the companions, several can easily come late enough that I have a full party and don't need their skills. And then there's Durance, who feels necessary but is intolerable. I'm kind of just completing the quests of those the game has actually endeared me to. Except for Kans, because I'm going to try to do Old Nua in one go. But the main plot is engaging, and I'm definitely going to gut Thaos for what he's done.

[Wookieetank]

I found that, and it helped; my current standard set up has the jobs list, the basic inventory, and the information screen.

Much as its a bit blocky and not the prettiest, the ease of customizing your UI layout is greatly appreciated. And if you haven't discovered this bit yet, if you lock a gathering building or town center off to the side of your screen, it'll keep the yellow circle of its effect on screen. Super helpful for figuring out how you want to layout things.

What really helped me was, as soon as I get the first frost, is to tank all of my farms, and, currently, throw them into the mines, because I'm behind on iron production.

The merchants can help mitigate this some, but they're sadly not reliable with the random nature of the goods they bring with them. Trying to use merchants for stone as much as I can, but I think I'm already on my 3rd quarry even with that. Need to get back to poking around at this game.

[Batcathat]

However I also just don't care about some of the companions, several can easily come late enough that I have a full party and don't need their skills.

I feel like that's an issue in a lot of (probably most) RPGs with optional party members. And probably a hard one to get around, unless you just want to stick all companions close to the beginning.

[LibraryOgre]

The merchants can help mitigate this some, but they're sadly not reliable with the random nature of the goods they bring with them. Trying to use merchants for stone as much as I can, but I think I'm already on my 3rd quarry even with that. Need to get back to poking around at this game.

Merchants, I find, are either prohibitively expensive or bloody useless. I would love to have 2500 in goods to afford some new seeds... but why can't my gatherers find Walnuts or Chestnuts enough to form a new orchard?

[GloatingSwine]

However I've discovered that I really just don't care for the combat and I'm only sticking with the game because the story really is that good.

PoE1 is definitely the weakest combat of Obsidian's RTWP* revival games. Combats are frequent and messy. I found the best strategy (on normal) was for everyone to stand next to each other and run buff auras whilst I popped abilities as needed.

PoE2 is better because there's less of it per zone, fewer but more significant enemies per encounter, and you have one fewer characters making them less of a mess.

I think Tyranny is actually the best though, only 4 characters to manage but they have combo attacks making them more interesting to manage, things mostly run on cooldowns rather than different resources, and encounters are generally even smaller.

Oh, and always turn on auto-slow in combat. Making them run at half speed makes them 200% more tolerable because they're much less of a scrappy mess.

* I've observed that nobody really likes RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still mostly realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system. That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.

[Anonymouswizard]

I feel like that's an issue in a lot of (probably most) RPGs with optional party members. And probably a hard one to get around, unless you just want to stick all companions close to the beginning.

To be fair in PoE they all come by the end of Act 2, but the first three are by far more interested in the main quest than the others. Hiravanas is redundant in role with Aloth and I'm really not sure if he has a personal quest, there's four different frontline warriors, and the Devil of Caroc is mostly redundant with a PC Rogue. And yet no real substitute healer.

PoE1 is definitely the weakest combat of Obsidian's RTWP* revival games. Combats are frequent and messy. I found the best strategy (on normal) was for everyone to stand next to each other and run buff auras whilst I popped abilities as needed.

PoE2 is better because there's less of it per zone, fewer but more significant enemies per encounter, and you have one fewer characters making them less of a mess.

I think Tyranny is actually the best though, only 4 characters to manage but they have combo attacks making them more interesting to manage, things mostly run on cooldowns rather than different resources, and encounters are generally even smaller.

Oh, and always turn on auto-slow in combat. Making them run at half speed makes them 200% more tolerable because they're much less of a scrappy mess.

* I've observed that nobody really likes RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still mostly realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system. That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.

Tyranny is great,I should really go back to it at some point. And when I get to Deadfire I'm turning on turn based mode ASAP. As it is, I think I'm just going to switch to Easy or Story Mode.

Anyway, I've got the baby. I believe this means I've won the game?

[MCerberus]

Tyranny's reputation has really changed in the last few years. When it came out everyone was mostly just kind of 'meh' on it, considering it a disappointment

[GloatingSwine]

To be fair in PoE they all come by the end of Act 2, but the first three are by far more interested in the main quest than the others. Hiravanas is redundant in role with Aloth and I'm really not sure if he has a personal quest, there's four different frontline warriors, and the Devil of Caroc is mostly redundant with a PC Rogue. And yet no real substitute healer.

Druids can be used for healing, so Hiravias can carry you through quite a lot of encounters. Druids are super versatile with heals, offensive spells, and their wildshape that lets them kick out melee damage. Clerics are better as your buffer and healer though so yeah you usually end up using Durance and just putting up with the fact he's a git. Fortunately, this is much improved in PoE2 because Xhoti is awesome.

You get one of each class as companions, so your real choice is what you want to double up on (and which difficulty you're playing on, the higher the difficulty the better Chanters are because combats are longer and they take time to wind up to their best tricks). I think the best class to have two of in the party if ny is Paladins because you can just give them different auras. (My typical PoE1 party has me and Pallegina as sword and board/defense aura and greatsword/offense aura paladins).

[Mechalich]

I've observed that nobody really likes RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still mostly realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system. That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.

The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game every encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.

Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose

[warty goblin]

The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game every encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.

Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose

I feel like the answer there is to not have lots of brainless curb-stomps in the first place. Not every fight needs to be super complex or difficult, and an occasional absolute beat down is fun, because varying combat difficulty and setting are part of good encounter design. Unfortunately a lot of RPGs seem to never get much beyond a room with a couple orcs or whatever and some forgettable loot for most of their fights. Even if the combat is good, I find that really wears out its welcome pretty quickly.

[Bohandas]

I spent October playing Doom and Doom II and replaying Dusk

* I've observed that nobody really likes RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it. It's an awkward space where it's generally not microable enough to scratch the RTS itch because there's too many options all the time but it's still mostly realtime so you don't have a lot of time to plan to use them unless you pause. And the stop-start nature of pausing to plan and do stuff feels worse than a good turn based system. That's why I always play the modern ones in slow mode, because I don't really have to pause much but still feel like I get to use all the options.

I outright refuse to buy any rpg that uses a realtime with pause system.

Realtime with pause is a fake system anyway. Realtime with pause as opposed to what? What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.

The one real advantage of RTWP is that it streamlines curb-stomps. Depending on factors like setup, difficulty, and just where in the power curve the party happens to be that might be a large proportion of the overall encounters. For example, in old-school BGII, by the time you're roughly halfway through the game every encounter requires functionally no thought unless there's either a powerful spellcaster in the enemy group or an annoying puzzle-type monster with energy drain or something.

Going full on turn-based tactics for every encounter, when there are a lot of encounters of minimal risk, feels like a lot of extra work to no purpose

In that case why even have the encounter play out at all? Why not just have an instant win condition like in Earthbound.

[Mechalich]

I feel like the answer there is to not have lots of brainless curb-stomps in the first place. Not every fight needs to be super complex or difficult, and an occasional absolute beat down is fun, because varying combat difficulty and setting are part of good encounter design. Unfortunately a lot of RPGs seem to never get much beyond a room with a couple orcs or whatever and some forgettable loot for most of their fights. Even if the combat is good, I find that really wears out its welcome pretty quickly.

Well, yes, but most RTWP games are built around rules systems that allow for truly astonishing levels of variability in both the party's overall power and their resource attrition rate, which means that sometimes a group will be able to cruise through intermittent battles, and other times not. Now, this isn't great design either, but it does mitigate the grind it out nature of fully turn-based games that also allow this to happen to a degree.

[Zombimode]

* I've observed that nobody really likes RTWP. People either have no strong opinion on it or dislike it.

I generally prefer turn-based combat in party rpgs, but I like RTWP in Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.
Not all RTWP systems are created equal. PoE for instance shows a disturbing lack of understanding of why RTWP did work quite well in the Infinity Engine games.

What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.

Regretably most RTS games don't allow for a "tactical" pause where you still can move the camera and give orders. Many even lock the camera in space or even block everyting with a "pause menu" screen.
And I don't really undestand why. A tactical pause feature would only be relevant to single player anyway and its up to the player to use it.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. I like thinking about what I'm doing. Also, I'm slow. I love any strategy game that allows me to pause while I give orders.

[Batcathat]

I outright refuse to buy any rpg that uses a realtime with pause system.

Realtime with pause is a fake system anyway. Realtime with pause as opposed to what? What realtime game even is there that you can't pause? Even in sports you can call a time out.

If that's the case, how do you even know what games you refuse to buy? Clearly, there is a difference between "this game has a pause function" and "this game is designed for real-time with pause".

Personally, I kinda like RTWP. It has its flaws and it can be implemented badly, but so can any of the alternatives.

[Wookieetank]

Merchants, I find, are either prohibitively expensive or bloody useless. I would love to have 2500 in goods to afford some new seeds... but why can't my gatherers find Walnuts or Chestnuts enough to form a new orchard?

I've found firewood of all things makes for good trading materials (and having a secret stockpile for winter is nice too). Completely agree on the gatherers.

Solved my surplus food situation last night. Over grew my population, went into a starvation spiral, and ended up with about 1/3 of my population left. There's quite the collection of graveyards around town now from all the Fun.

Had to close the schools and boot all my students into food production to stop the spiral, but things seem settled now. Had a fire breakout in my town center, which burned down an impressive 29 buildings (25 houses, 1 market, 2 blacksmiths, and a tailor), but no casualties, so win?

Also had a nomad group of 89 stop by, which I decided to absorb, only to find out that only 30 of them were adults *facepalm*. Threw all those adults into food production as well, and managed to skate by 2 full years now after that.

Had to call it quits there, but I'm intrigued to see how far I can get on rebuilding before a new disaster strikes.

[Bohandas]

If that's the case, how do you even know what games you refuse to buy?

I blocked the tag on steam

[Batcathat]

I blocked the tag on steam

Fair enough, but my second point remains: that there's a difference between a game that has a pause function and one that's designed around using it (for example, a RTWP game allows for issuing commands while paused, which most games where pausing is just for when you don't want to play doesn't allow).

[Spore]

I generally prefer turn-based combat in party rpgs, but I like RTWP in Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.
Not all RTWP systems are created equal. PoE for instance shows a disturbing lack of understanding of why RTWP did work quite well in the Infinity Engine games.

Weren't the Infinity games and its rule sets handcrafted to fit the gameplay style? I recall reading about how AD&D was nothing like Baldur's Gate's rules, and they just loosely took inspiration from classes and mechanics. Because it didn't work.

Similarly with Pathfinder games: RTWP works with a low of classes, but there are some classes that are just too micro intensive. A player on a real table would say they use Shocking Grasp in Spell Combat on their melee attack. So far so good. It works just like two weapon fighting, not very difficult.

But in RTWP you have to get into melee, select the spell from the spell book, pray the character understands this is spell combat (so they attack in melee instead of hard casting the shocking grasp) and you do that for every of your 15ish spell slots for your daily encounter. And you fight A LOT in these games. Or you can simply have an Oracle, click 5 buffs before combat and then right click your enemies to death.

One is easier done than the other.

[Bohandas]

Fair enough, but my second point remains: that there's a difference between a game that has a pause function and one that's designed around using it (for example, a RTWP game allows for issuing commands while paused, which most games where pausing is just for when you don't want to play doesn't allow).

The "real-time with pause tag" generally indicates a realtime game that should not be realtime and would work better in a turn-based format. And it is this, rather than anything about their pausability, that distinguishes them most strongly and consistently from other realtime games. There are some exceptions of course; Planescape Torment should have either been an adventure game like Monkey Island or it should have been a visual novel

Similarly with Pathfinder games: RTWP works with a low of classes, but there are some classes that are just too micro intensive. A player on a real table would say they use Shocking Grasp in Spell Combat on their melee attack. So far so good. It works just like two weapon fighting, not very difficult.

But in RTWP you have to get into melee, select the spell from the spell book, pray the character understands this is spell combat (so they attack in melee instead of hard casting the shocking grasp) and you do that for every of your 15ish spell slots for your daily encounter. And you fight A LOT in these games. Or you can simply have an Oracle, click 5 buffs before combat and then right click your enemies to death.

One is easier done than the other.

Yeah, basically this. RTWP basically precludes the use of anything other than a one-trick melee fighters who just make basic attacks until the enemy is dead. Anything that dealing with more than one kind of attack, or spells or area effects or any sort of complex maneuvering basically can't be done.

[Sermil]

Personally, I love Sins of a Solar Empire, which is realtime with pause -- specifically, an RTS where you can still issue orders while the game is paused. Honestly, it's the only RTS I play. I can't keep up with an RTS that doesn't allow that. I certainly couldn't play Sins in multiplayer.

If you want to be technical about it, combat in FTL is realtime-with-pause as well.

If it's done right, RTWP games can be great.

[Zombimode]

Weren't the Infinity games and its rule sets handcrafted to fit the gameplay style? I recall reading about how AD&D was nothing like Baldur's Gate's rules, and they just loosely took inspiration from classes and mechanics. Because it didn't work.

Hm, broadly speaking this characterisation of the relationship between Baldurs Gate and the AD&D rules is incorrect.

First, stats and character building rules are pretty closely modeled. Some attribute effects are not coded in, but these are minor effects (like save bonus vs some stuff for high Wisdom, Immunity to low level illusions for extreme Int scores etc.). All the different multiclass rules are exactly like in AD&D.
Non-weapon Proficiencies are not in the game, but they are an optional part of the rules anyway.

Then, spell effects. Most spells do exactly what their AD&D counterparts do. Others have their effects altered in a way so they make sense for the game's engine (and lack of GM). Most spells work how you would expect the AD&D spell work in the context of the game. Just a small number of spells work notably different. One example would be Slow Poison which actually cures poison in Baldurs Gate.

Third, the underlying combat engine.
While the Infinity Engine is seemingly real-time and durations are really defined in milliseconds, the game still runs on a strict turn structure: every 6 seconds a new turns starts and this governs what creatures and do within that timeframe. This is a major difference to the systems used in later games like Pillars.
Within that 6 second frame, actions happen at certain times. In other words it is a time tick system where at specific ticks actions (like an attack, start of casting, finish of casting) happen. While later D&D editions use a more classic You-Go-I-Go turn system, AD&D's individual initiative system was pretty much what you see in Baldurs Gate.

Are there differences? Of course.
But is a far closer model of AD&D then a loose inspiration. At least in the things that the game does model.

[Cespenar]

Probably unimportant among the pausable CRPG talk, but I've wrapped up something called Sunday Gold, an indie RPG/Adventure which I can only describe as a budget Shadowrun/Disco Elysium child. The theme of the day is 2080s London heist, where the new pastime in the setting is watching cyborg dog races on TV.

Not on the same level as those two titles, obviously, but still, a pretty fun (and funny) little gem.

[Anonymouswizard]

Probably unimportant among the pausable CRPG talk, but I've wrapped up something called Sunday Gold, an indie RPG/Adventure which I can only describe as a budget Shadowrun/Disco Elysium child. The theme of the day is 2080s London heist, where the new pastime in the setting is watching cyborg dog races on TV.

Not on the same level as those two titles, obviously, but still, a pretty fun (and funny) little gem.

I'll have to check it out when I'm finished with the Pillars of Eternity games.

On that note, I've cranked the difficulty down as far as it'll go, and now I just want to do two other sidequests before I go towards the endgame. Although as I e of those is 'actually venture into Old Nua' it might take a while.

Honestly the dungeons are by far the worst part of any RPG. A long slog through enemies to wear you done, but it doesn't actually matter because you can stop for tea and a nap at any time!

[NRSASD]

Playing Deep Rock Season 3! Having a great time foaming the suitably disgusting rock pox. As an aside, Deep Rock Galactic is the only game I’ve ever played where random players play in character. I had so much fun gripping about poor working conditions and upper management while shooting bugs.

Also playing Crusader Kings. This time, I’m trying to stay a vassal the entire game while also being a different religion. Very fun time!

[warty goblin]

I think RTWP works best when you don't actually need to pause all that often. If the best way to play requires pausing every 3 seconds, I'm not really playing a real time game, I'm playing a WEGO turn based system that lacks the guts to commit to that.

The absolute worst case for RTWP is when the ability to pause gets used as a crutch for bad interface, AI, and general unpleasant fussiness. Neverwinter Nights 2 is a very good example of how not to do this, with the enormous grid of very easily confused tiny-ass spell icons. Honestly Pathinder Wrath of the Righteous isn't a ton better, though you can at least dodge some of that in turn based mode. Of course the turn based interface is also not great, the walking speed is horribly slow in combat, and some genius decided that spacebar should be the speed up animation and the end turn hotkeys.

In other news, I'm back to messing around with Wrath of the Righteous, or as I like to think of it, a character creator that also seems to include a game of some sort. Usually I create a character and hit cancel before actually starting. Occasionally I actually get to the starter dungeon. My all time record is getting to the inn hub.

[Cozzer]

RTWP could be good with combat rules that synergize with it - both in the strategy half and in the time-sensitive half.
Few commands for each character, easy to understand and at least a couple that are time sensitive (so that, for example, you need to cast a Fire Barrier as soon as you see the boss charging a fire attack). Also, enemies that telephone at least their biggest attack so that you can react to them, and don't need to read the developers' minds or savescum in order to have a relevant defense already up.

So, basically the complete opposite of D&D rules.

[Erloas]

These complaints are a lot of what I didn't like about the Fallout 3+ VATS system. It just felt like a crutch put in place to overcome very poor controls and encounter design.

I think pause options on RTSs is generally a good thing though, because a strategy game should be based on strategy, rather than memorizing everything and micromanaging every combat.

[IthilanorStPete]

I think pause options on RTSs is generally a good thing though, because a strategy game should be based on strategy, rather than memorizing everything and micromanaging every combat.

Chiming in on this tangential point: I definitely like that the Paradox grand strategy games are RTWP, real-time makes them flow more smoothly, but you can still pause at any time to plan your actions (and give new orders to your armies).