Ranking the defence of the gates

[hroþila]

something like Soon, in a moment of cowardice, pushed Kraagor into the Snarl to save himself and the others never forgave him.

Can't have been cowardice because paladins are immune to fear, right? So it would have to have been a calculated decision out of selfishness. Which would put Soon too obviously in the wrong, I think.

[Resileaf]

Can't have been cowardice because paladins are immune to fear, right? So it would have to have been a calculated decision out of selfishness. Which would put Soon too obviously in the wrong, I think.

Call it how you want, a desire to save his own soul at the expense of someone else's is still fundamentally cowardice.

[awa]

I feel a weakness of the last gate is it is essentially just a stalling game. It has thus far presented no ability to actually stop a high level threat. They can just keep going in killing monsters and getting levels. Now stalling could work fine if it was combined with a plea for assistance or strong allies that could come to your aid, but as it is it cant actually stop the problem.

All the others have a least some ability to punish a failed attack and/or adapt. The last gate just forces you into a 15 minute work day.

[Carl]

Talking about whether Soon was a good leader or not is too soon (rimshot) considering we don't know what exactly caused the split. There's something about Kraagor's death that is yet to be revealed. It could be as simple as Kraagor pushed Soon out of the rift at the last second and the others did not believe him, or something like Soon, in a moment of cowardice, pushed Kraagor into the Snarl to save himself and the others never forgave him.

It's obvious from the few other bits of info we got regarding their adventures that Soon wasn't popular with everyone well before Kraegors death. Don't get me wrong, i think learning more about Kraegor will help understand how they stayed together so long, but there where clearly cracks forming well before that point.

That isn't to say Soon was necessarily innately a poor leader, but rather his party besides him was composed heavily, of Chaotic and/or Neutral types. Paladins generally are going to have issue leading that kind of party and keeping within their oaths at the same time unless they're exceptionally good at both, (O-Chul is probably a good example of this done right though, Hinjo seems to be good at it too). Leading a bunch of mostly Lawful Good types is probably somthing Soon was fine at, and i get the feelign, (it's just a feeling mind), that he got a lot better as he got older at dealing with the difficulties involved.

basically Soon comes off as a square Peg in a round hole as Leader of the Scribbblers rather than an innately bad leader.

[Mike Havran]

While I don't quite think Soon's Gate was the best defended (For a start there was a real if unlikely long-term risk of the Gate being destroyed incidentally given that it was in the chair of the Lord of Azure City.)

However, it is probbably one of the best long-term prospects so far in terms of Gate defense, not being reliant on a single person's life to protect, and I think much better prospects than Girard's Gate had in the long run. Sooner or later one of them was going to get busted or run off, and being a mono-school fortress is a major weakness.

I think the argument that Girard's gate had a weakness that somebody from the clan could betray the cause or go rogue or something like that should be compared to the fact that the very leadership of (living) Sapphire Guard was handed over to a secular leader of a large city full of corrupt aristocrats who select the new leader in case the old one dies without a designated heir.

Just as the Girard's defenders were screwed over by bad luck of being related to a black dragon, Soon's were just lucky that Shojo was a good guy and the throne did not go to somebody like devil-allied Kubota. Top politics as it is, something like that was bound to happen sooner than a dangerous defection from the Draketooth mafia. The question what Soon would do with a legal but corrupt Lord is open for speculation, I guess.

[Laurentio III]

Can't have been cowardice because paladins are immune to fear, right? So it would have to have been a calculated decision out of selfishness. Which would put Soon too obviously in the wrong, I think.

Betrayal of allies is a no-no for paladins, no way around. You can find a way to lie, you can kill someone and rationalize later. But betrayal is a line you can't pass.
I assume it's a rule to avoid in-party killing by a zelous paladin.

[Kurald Galain]

Sapphire Guard was handed over to a secular leader of a large city full of corrupt aristocrats who select the new leader in case the old one dies without a designated heir.

The obvious response to that, then, is to designate a heir. It's not that hard, you've got a church full of paladins so pick one that looks promising.

[Mike Havran]

The obvious response to that, then, is to designate a heir. It's not that hard, you've got a church full of paladins so pick one that looks promising.

Don't forget the assassinations. Shojo narrowly escaped one, feigned senility to avoid more attempts, and Hinjo would have been killed heirless several times without the protagonists' intervention.

[dancrilis]

Can't have been cowardice because paladins are immune to fear, right? So it would have to have been a calculated decision out of selfishness. Which would put Soon too obviously in the wrong, I think.

It would perhaps depend on who Kraagor was as a person - if it comes down to a choice between saving himself and saving Belkar would Roy choose to save Belkar, particularly is a sacrifice was needed and Belkar was willing and able to make it?

If Belkar was better regarded by his party one could see such a decision made by the party leader to lead to a break in the party.

If Good people are allowed to prioritise the lives of Good people over Evil people then presumedly Good people can prioritise the lives of Good people over Neutral people - and as such Good party members could likely prioritise their lives over the lives of problematic party members.

[Liquor Box]

I also think Dorukan's gate is ranked far too highly here - the castle was hardly impenetrable, and out of the three gates where the primary defense was "lots of magic" only Dorukan mostly just filled the place with monsters and then sat around doing very little to reinforce his defenses. Once Xykon drew him out it was pretty easy to take over, and not one but two adventuring parties got in there just fine. Seriously, at least Girard's gate had traps, and most of them were placed more accurately.

Meanwhile, Soon's gate wasn't just protected by a city and an army but by being wholly inconspicuous. If you didn't know about the gate you could stumble around for ages without finding it. Heck, not only did Soon have protections while everyone was alive, he clearly had better defenses in place in the event of death; Girard's gate relied on a constant stream of illusion refreshers from his family while Soon made sure that even if something similar to Familicide hit the Sapphire Guard, they would still have defenses in place.

We shouldn't forget that Dorukan's final defense is what held Xykon back the longest (so far, Kraagor's Tomb may break that record. Although, now that the heroes are her, I doubt it).

5: Dorukan's Gate. I feel like the fact that Dorukan was a key linchpin in its defense while being an old guy kinda forces this one to be last. Like, Xykon could just move in after he killed him, not a good look. The ward was good, I'll give him that much though (if at the end of the day, bypassable). The fact that he randomly put a self-destruct rune though, not so much.

Dorukan's - Big dungeon full of monsters and an epic-level wizard calling the shots. Seems like the Sigil did most of the heavy lifting, though, and Dorukan didn't really have a strong backup plan.

I think people are significantly underrating Dorukan's gate.

It had the following layers of defence:
- The fact that its location was secret.
- The wards which meant Xykon had to lure Dorukan out to fight.
- Dorukan himself.
- Several dungeon levels filled with monsters and traps etc.
- The sigils which allowed only the good aligned to pass.
- The spells on the gate, which Xykon spent months trying (unsuccessfully) to bypass
- The self destruct button

I get that there's an argument that the Dorukan himself layer may have fallen away when Dorukan died. but I have two points in response. First, the gate held up longer than any other gate so far after his death. Secondly, if he had died of natural causes we have no idea whether he had a contingencies for the gate's continued defence - maybe he'd lich himself too.

My rating from least effective to most effective:
5. Lyrian's gate.
4. Girard's gate (the familicide only negated one layer of defence, and rest were a cakewalk).
3. Serini's gate (based on what we know of it so far)
2. Dorukon's gate (based on the above).
1. Soon's gate (the simple fact than an entire army was required and even after it had defeated the city, the gates defences still were succeeding but for Miko is hard to look past)

[Peelee]

I think people are significantly underrating Dorukan's gate.

It had the following layers of defence:
- The fact that its location was secret.

Was this not a defense of every Gate?

[Liquor Box]

Was this not a defense of every Gate?

Not sure about Lyrian's. If it was secret, how did Xykon find it? Just stumble across it?

Even if it is true for every gate, it's worth mentioning I think. It's an important part of the defence (likely the most important part for Girard's).

[Peelee]

Not sure about Lyrian's. If it was secret, how did Xykon find it? Just stumble across it?.

This is answered in Start of Darkness.

Redcloak knew about it because the Dark One knew about it because a goblin had happened upon the rift before it was a Gate. Which could have happened to anyone with any of the rifts.

[Ruck]

It's obvious from the few other bits of info we got regarding their adventures that Soon wasn't popular with everyone well before Kraegors death. Don't get me wrong, i think learning more about Kraegor will help understand how they stayed together so long, but there where clearly cracks forming well before that point.

Was it obvious? Girard is the only one I remember making cracks (the other kind) about him before Kraagor died. Although I do think there were cracks forming in the Scribble that split open when Kraagor died, we still don't really know the cause of the animosity or who really held it against whom (besides the aforementioned Girard toward Soon).

Anyway, back of a napkin guess, Soon's and Kraagor's Gates were best defended, Lirian's and Dorukan's were the worst, and Girard is in between.

And, yes, the point of their Gate's failures is that they split up rather than working together and each gate fell to a unique weakness of the particular defender's approach.

[Kurald Galain]

Don't forget the assassinations. Shojo narrowly escaped one, feigned senility to avoid more attempts,

Yes, but Shojo probably had his heir designated before the assassinations started. Hinjo might have done it off-screen because he's not stupid; it sounds like designating a heir is pretty much the first thing you should do as a ruler.

[Yendor]

Was it obvious? Girard is the only one I remember making cracks (the other kind) about him before Kraagor died. Although I do think there were cracks forming in the Scribble that split open when Kraagor died, we still don't really know the cause of the animosity or who really held it against whom (besides the aforementioned Girard toward Soon).

Note that Dorukan's defenses on his Gate would have kept out Girard, but not Soon.

[Metastachydium]

Dorukan DID have measures in place after his death that Xykon and Redcloak seemingly had no way to bypass: his gate could only be accessed by someone Good-Aligned.

And, perhaps more importantly, he also kept this secret. It’s not in the diary. It’s probably not in his spell book or anything else Xykon would have free access to after killing Dorukan. The only hint he has is that this other area in the dungeon has a similar protection.

Now, once it’s figured out it’ll be easy to get around it. Any number of Good-Aligned people could be tricked or forced into dispelling the last defense, but it’s not like Dorukan had NO contingencies. Team Evil had the run of the place for… weeks? And couldn’t manage to even get to the gate, giving a ragtag band of adventures plenty of time to swoop in and save the day.

The sigil is kind of overrated, if you ask me. What kept that Gate unwrapped was ultimately dumb luck and early installment weirdness. I mean, the Dungeon had Good-aligned goblin children and the oblivious Monster prowling around in the throne room and Xykon regularly instructed underlings (mostly goblins that are likely the descendants of peaceful villagers he abducted) to touch the Gate.

[Ruck]

I mean, the Dungeon had Good-aligned goblin children

Did it now?

I'm thinking of this, sure, but then I'm thinking "And then what happened?"

[Resileaf]

Yes, but Shojo probably had his heir designated before the assassinations started. Hinjo might have done it off-screen because he's not stupid; it sounds like designating a heir is pretty much the first thing you should do as a ruler.

Historically-speaking, medieval rulers don't designate a heir until they have a child (almost always a son) or until it's obvious they won't have the time to have children and need to name another family member before they die. Otherwise, should you designate a heir and have a son later on, well...

Let's just say it tends to not end up well.

[dancrilis]

1. Soon's gate (the simple fact than an entire army was required and even after it had defeated the city, the gates defences still were succeeding but for Miko is hard to look past)

I do agree that Soon's gate was likely the best defended but I don't rate the fight against Xykon as a reason for it - Soon only stood a chance because Xykon didn't seem to think to box him, and only because Xykon broke with the battle plan, and seemingly only because Xykon didn't know about incorporeal creatures.
Xykon fought Soon to Soon's strengths and Soon with the entire Sapphire Guard and enough time for Redcloak to have an epiphany, withdraw and assemble his forces, capture the city, have a cleric duel and find the throne room in a large castle - still wasn't able to get the job done.

In contrast Lirian's gate which I have rated the worst was actually able to actual defeat Team Evil - and that defeat didn't rely on Team Evil messing up - if she had just killed them (or given them their own prison cells) she would have won.

[Metastachydium]

Did it now?

I'm thinking of this, sure, but then I'm thinking "And then what happened?"

That's one juvenile goblin out of several. Notably, the one with the shoes wanted to help them get out of the dungeon, while the bespectacled one stayed helpful all the way through. Not to mention that even if they were still susceptible to temptation and whatnot, DCF!Haley qualified as being "of pure heart", so…

[Peelee]

I do agree that Soon's gate was likely the best defended but I don't rate the fight against Xykon as a reason for it - Soon only stood a chance because Xykon didn't seem to think to box him, and only because Xykon broke with the battle plan, and seemingly only because Xykon didn't know about incorporeal creatures.

Conversely, Xykon only got as far as he did because he had a goblin who is the emissary of his god, who managed to find a highly militarized city of combatants capable of posing a serious threat to Azure City and also distract most of the defenses from Xykon's attempt to bypass them all. Also that emissary only managed to even be alive due to having an actual artifact and they were only able to get to Soon's Gate regardless due to said artifact allowing the emissary to keep his spellcasting powers and also said emissary was able to turn his cohort into a lich (presumably an obscure technique, as presented).

Circumstances affect how things turn out. Looking only at the circumstances on one side and not the other does nothing.

[dancrilis]

Conversely, Xykon only got as far as he did because he had a goblin who is the emissary of his god, who managed to find a highly militarized city of combatants capable of posing a serious threat to Azure City and also distract most of the defenses from Xykon's attempt to bypass them all. Also that emissary only managed to even be alive due to having an actual artifact and they were only able to get to Soon's Gate regardless due to said artifact allowing the emissary to keep his spellcasting powers and also said emissary was able to turn his cohort into a lich (presumably an obscure technique, as presented).

Circumstances affect how things turn out. Looking only at the circumstances on one side and not the other does nothing.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

My point (such as it is) is that I don't really rate the fights that highly when determining how well a gate was defended - the actual fight between Xykon and Soon or Lirian I don't think matter that much to viewing how well the Gates themselves were defended, except insofar as now much the gates relied on them specifically.

Soon was a very last defence of his Gate - the final desperate hurdle against an enemy that bypassed the other defences, if he and his ghost-martyrs hadn't been present it would have been a defence the gate was lacking but it would still have been one of the best of not the best defended gates in my view.

[Peelee]

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

My point (such as it is) is that I don't really rate the fights that highly when determining how well a gate was defended - the actual fight between Xykon and Soon or Lirian I don't think matter that much to viewing how well the Gates themselves were defended, except insofar as now much the gates relied on them specifically.

Soon was a very last defence of his Gate - the final desperate hurdle against an enemy that bypassed the other defences, if he and his ghost-martyrs hadn't been present it would have been a defence the gate was lacking but it would still have been one of the best of not the best defended gates in my view.

Agreeing, but with showing the other side of the coin as well. One side getting lucky shouldn't mean a defense wasn't good enough.

[Kurald Galain]

Historically-speaking, medieval rulers

Historically speaking, medieval rulers have strict succession rules that do not involve a council of nobles voting on them. If the ruler doesn't have a son, the crown goes to his brother or nephew or whatnot, in a strictly defined order.

Because otherwise, as you say, it tends to not end up well. The reason why a ruler of Sapphire City needs to establish a heir IS because SC has this council vote.

[Fyraltari]

Historically speaking, medieval rulers have strict succession rules that do not involve a council of nobles voting on them. If the ruler doesn't have a son, the crown goes to his brother or nephew or whatnot, in a strictly defined order.

Because otherwise, as you say, it tends to not end up well. The reason why a ruler of Sapphire City needs to establish a heir IS because SC has this council vote.

Strictly speaking, you can't generalize "madieval rulers" because every kindgom did its own thing according to its own customs. Many medieval monarchies were indeed elective monarchies or partially elective. The council of noble picking a new king when no obvious heir is available is hardly ahistorical. For example, that is exactly how France went from the Carolingian dynasty to the Capetian dynasty: Hughes Capet was elected king by the peers of the kingdom. It wasn't long until the ennemies of the Capetian took advantage of that to claim he was low-born (Dante's Divine Comedy claims his father was a butcher if memory serves), which isn't true, he was duke of modern-day Île-de-France.

Also, it's Azure City and Sapphire Guard, not Sapphire City.

[Peelee]

Historically speaking, medieval anything did not have wizards and sorcerers and dragons modern sensibilities.

D&D has vaguely medieval set dressing. That's about as close as it gets to historical medieval society. I am firmly against using medieval historical accuracy as any sort of benchmark for anything D&D related.

[Metastachydium]

Strictly speaking, you can't generalize "madieval rulers" because every kindgom did its own thing according to its own customs. Many medieval monarchies were indeed elective monarchies or partially elective. The council of noble picking a new king when no obvious heir is available is hardly ahistorical. For example, that is exactly how France went from the Carolingian dynasty to the Capetian dynasty: Hughes Capet was elected king by the peers of the kingdom.

(Meanwhile, in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the szlachta electing monarchs was the norm rather than the exception.)

[Resileaf]

Well I suppose I remember more the times when the lack of heir declaration went badly than the times where there wasn't really an issue. That tends to be the sort of stuff that gets retold more often since it's more juicy.

[Fyraltari]

(Meanwhile, in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the szlachta electing monarchs was the norm rather than the exception.)

Also, the Holy Roman Empire.