Ranking the defence of the gates

[spectralphoenix]

In Azure City's case, the Sapphire Guard and/or church of the Twelve probably played a big part in things too. Things might not have been so simple for Kubota if the paladins hadn't been practically wiped out.

Even if an evil ruler took the throne, though, a competent evil ruler would still be heavily incentivized to keep the Gates safe. It's really only crazies like the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple that would consciously try to destroy a gate, and only servants of the Dark One who (mistakenly) would try to control it. It seems pretty fair to assume the nobles wouldn't have voted in them.

[Liquor Box]

I do agree that Soon's gate was likely the best defended but I don't rate the fight against Xykon as a reason for it - Soon only stood a chance because Xykon didn't seem to think to box him, and only because Xykon broke with the battle plan, and seemingly only because Xykon didn't know about incorporeal creatures.
Xykon fought Soon to Soon's strengths and Soon with the entire Sapphire Guard and enough time for Redcloak to have an epiphany, withdraw and assemble his forces, capture the city, have a cleric duel and find the throne room in a large castle - still wasn't able to get the job done.

In contrast Lirian's gate which I have rated the worst was actually able to actual defeat Team Evil - and that defeat didn't rely on Team Evil messing up - if she had just killed them (or given them their own prison cells) she would have won.

To me it seems like in both cases Xykon was on the cusp of losing because he didn't understand an aspect of his enemies' defences. In one case it was the virus, in the other it was the immmunities of the ghists.

One thing that was very different between the two battles was that the Team Evil that challenged Soon was a lot more powerful than the Team Evil who challenged Lyrian the first time round. Apart from any levels gained or other changes, the lichification of Xykon was a step change in power for him. So much so that Lyrian wasn't even a threat to him in round 2.

[Ruck]

That's one juvenile goblin out of several. Notably, the one with the shoes wanted to help them get out of the dungeon, while the bespectacled one stayed helpful all the way through. Not to mention that even if they were still susceptible to temptation and whatnot, DCF!Haley qualified as being "of pure heart", so…

All right, fair enough. I had forgotten that the goblin teenagers were not all in cahoots on that one.

[Kish]

There's no such thing as Sapphire City and Soon was never the ruler of Azure City.

[Nymrod]

For me

1) Dorukan's Gate. Held by Xykon for months, could not penetrate the main defense of the gate. This is an epic level spellcaster with access to the strongest antimagic in D&D (superb dispelling) yet still could not penetrate the gate's defenses. Also do we know that Redcloak is actually right about a good aligned person being able to bypass it? I thought that was just an untested hypothesis. So very hard to access and was only destructible because Dorukan wanted it to be destructible.

2) Soon's Gate. Extremely hard to take and hold given there is an entire city and a truly epic level defense in Soon and the rest of the Ghost Martyrs (just imagine someone like Miko joining Soon as a deathless defender bound to the gate; Xykon would have been dead). I only rank it second because while the gate is hard to take, it's not hard to destroy. This is a throne room, monarchs hold court, a strong group could have gotten in there under false pretenses and sundered that gem before anyone could react.

3) Tie between Lirian and Girard's. Both are just stupid. Girard's defenses count entirely on his family. No matter the indoctrination after a while there would either not be enough in number or strength to keep those defenses all of which are completely negated by a single spell any high level adventuring group keeps access to (either true sight or mind blank) not to mention undead being unaffected by mind affecting effects. Meanwhile I guess Lirian never told Dorukan how she was defending the gate cause he'd have been forced to give her at least some pointers. Mid level npcs, destructible environment, a single major deterrent that can be warded with a low level spell, undead or paladins (seriously the sapphire guard could just strut there and take over the gate). Any group that would have probed her defenses/used divination could have countered her.
I do not mind Girard's being this stupid because the major deterrent was still impressive and it perfectly matched his own delusions. But Lirian's I consider a weak point in storytelling. Lirian should have known better.

Not ranking Kraagor's because too many unknowns. Not impressed with the teleportation trick. Most groups would have been using arcane sight/greater arcane sight and spotted the conjuration effect on each doorway. Even if that is hidden, the geometry of the caves makes no sense so you'd have to wonder if there was teleportation involved. A single errant dispelling of enough power near the gate would have shut down her teleportation traps for long enough that someone would notice something is up, something that could easily just happen by mistake. I am still waiting to meet whatever deepspawn buddy Serini has birthing all these monsters though. Expecting something major defending the last one (Tarrasque time?)

[Fyraltari]

There's no such thing as Sapphire City and Soon was never the ruler of Azure City.

Soon was never the ruler of Azure City. All of hiis sucessors as leader of the Sapphire Guard were.

[Peelee]

For me

1) Dorukan's Gate.....

only destructible because Dorukan wanted it to be destructible.

All the Gates seem to be easily destructible.

[brian 333]

Girard's Gate was defended by illusions, which are easily defeated by high level spellcasters. However, what is overlooked in this analysis is that the minions of such casters would be vulnerable unless the caster has lots of seventh level spell slots to spare. Meanwhile, the many Sorcerers who made up his family could snipe from concealed defenses and the higher level ones could have cast non-illusion based spells to strip the intruding caster of magical defenses until ordinary crossbows would penetrate the unarmored caster's hide.

It's weakness wasn't the family plan. That could have lead to stronger and more varied approaches to the defense over time. Stevie might have been a sorcerer/rogue while Tomi grew up to be a sorcerer/fighter, and Uwe grew up to become a ranger/sorcerer/red black dragon disciple.

Its apparent weakness was to a unique epic spell cast by a long dead spellcaster whose magical formula was not available to anyone, only castable by a very tiny group of people, and actually targeted at a seemingly unrelated,(no pun intended,) target.

[Carl]

For me

1) Dorukan's Gate. Held by Xykon for months, could not penetrate the main defense of the gate. This is an epic level spellcaster with access to the strongest antimagic in D&D (superb dispelling) yet still could not penetrate the gate's defenses. Also do we know that Redcloak is actually right about a good aligned person being able to bypass it? I thought that was just an untested hypothesis. So very hard to access and was only destructible because Dorukan wanted it to be destructible.

2) Soon's Gate. Extremely hard to take and hold given there is an entire city and a truly epic level defense in Soon and the rest of the Ghost Martyrs (just imagine someone like Miko joining Soon as a deathless defender bound to the gate; Xykon would have been dead). I only rank it second because while the gate is hard to take, it's not hard to destroy. This is a throne room, monarchs hold court, a strong group could have gotten in there under false pretenses and sundered that gem before anyone could react.

3) Tie between Lirian and Girard's. Both are just stupid. Girard's defenses count entirely on his family. No matter the indoctrination after a while there would either not be enough in number or strength to keep those defenses all of which are completely negated by a single spell any high level adventuring group keeps access to (either true sight or mind blank) not to mention undead being unaffected by mind affecting effects. Meanwhile I guess Lirian never told Dorukan how she was defending the gate cause he'd have been forced to give her at least some pointers. Mid level npcs, destructible environment, a single major deterrent that can be warded with a low level spell, undead or paladins (seriously the sapphire guard could just strut there and take over the gate). Any group that would have probed her defenses/used divination could have countered her.
I do not mind Girard's being this stupid because the major deterrent was still impressive and it perfectly matched his own delusions. But Lirian's I consider a weak point in storytelling. Lirian should have known better.

Not ranking Kraagor's because too many unknowns. Not impressed with the teleportation trick. Most groups would have been using arcane sight/greater arcane sight and spotted the conjuration effect on each doorway. Even if that is hidden, the geometry of the caves makes no sense so you'd have to wonder if there was teleportation involved. A single errant dispelling of enough power near the gate would have shut down her teleportation traps for long enough that someone would notice something is up, something that could easily just happen by mistake. I am still waiting to meet whatever deepspawn buddy Serini has birthing all these monsters though. Expecting something major defending the last one (Tarrasque time?)

Care to specify which low level spell your thinking of for negating lirians defences?

Also undead may be a major weakness, but there's not many undead that would be powerful enough to overpower the gates physical defences even without Lirian around. the same would apply if in a hypothetical scenario the Paladins had tried taking the gate.

Honestly barring whatever final trick is protecting Serreni's gate in terms of resistance to brute physical force and living creatures Lirian's was probably the best. It's too big flaws where it's location, (not much can be done about that), and the danger of undead, (although it has to be said the major weaknesses are high level vampires and Lich's, most other thing are within the realms of what the hard physical force countermeasures can deal with, plus non-intelligent).

[Elanfanforlife]

Care to specify which low level spell your thinking of for negating lirians defences?

They're probably thinking of Remove Disease, but given it's on the cleric spell list and Redcloak couldn't cure Xykon without turning him into a Lich, the virus can probably protect against it.

[Carl]

They're probably thinking of Remove Disease, but given it's on the cleric spell list and Redcloak couldn't cure Xykon without turning him into a Lich, the virus can probably protect against it.

RC specifically mentions he tried that and break enchantment AFAIK. I was wondering if it was somthing else.

[Laurentio III]

Spoiler: SoD

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It's no use. I've tried everything from Remove Curse to Remove Disease.
Have you tried Heal?
No, because I'm not high enough level to cast Heal.

[Mike Havran]

Yes, but Shojo probably had his heir designated before the assassinations started. Hinjo might have done it off-screen because he's not stupid; it sounds like designating a heir is pretty much the first thing you should do as a ruler.

I don't think either of your statements is correct.

Spoiler: GDGU

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Zhou Bo asks Hinjo if he's the heir to the Azure City's throne. Hinjo explains that he's not, but it's widely expected that Shojo will designate him as heir when he turns eighteen.

This means:
1. Shojo was cool with waiting ~2 years before designating Hinjo as his heir. The position was vacant, otherwise Hinjo would simply tell who the current "designated heir" was.
2. Heir to the throne is a legit talk among commoners in AC, so it's not a super secret that only gets revealed while reading the will of passed ruler.
3. Kubota wanted to kill Katos specifically to sway vote, which would have been useless if Hinjo had designated his heir.

[Laurentio III]

1. Shojo was cool with waiting ~2 years before designating Hinjo as his heir. The position was vacant, otherwise Hinjo would simply tell who the current "designated heir" was.

I assume that the reason is:
• Shojo designes Hinjo as his heir.
• Family rulers faces the possibility of Shojo retiring. They don't like the idea.
• Hinjo is targeted for assassination, and is not experienced enough to survive.

Instead:
• Everyone and their grandmothers know that Hinjo is the most probable heir, so he will eventually become leader anyway.
• No one is assassinated.

[Mike Havran]

I assume that the reason is:
• Shojo designes Hinjo as his heir.
• Family rulers faces the possibility of Shojo retiring. They don't like the idea.
• Hinjo is targeted for assassination, and is not experienced enough to survive.

Instead:
• Everyone and their grandmothers know that Hinjo is the most probable heir, so he will eventually become leader anyway.
• No one is assassinated.

That's kinda bizzare scenario. So Shojo did not designate Hinjo immediatey because he was convinced the nobles like him as a ruler so much that they will murder his nephew so that he may remain on the throne longer?

[Laurentio III]

That's kinda bizzare scenario. So Shojo did not designate Hinjo immediatey because he was convinced the nobles like him as a ruler so much that they will murder his nephew so that he may remain on the throne longer?

It's my take, exactly.
Shojo is (fakely) senile, apparently malleable.
Hinjo is a paladin. Not know to be easy to manipulate.
And if you believe Shojo's ruse, you do expect him to became even more senile with passing time. So you'd want him on the throne as long as possible.

Obviously, it being my take, I could be wrong. Maybe Shojo just likes to have tuna sandwiches.

[woweedd]

The key Aesop of this whole gate setup is that Scribble failed with the whole "monitor other gates only, no visits"-policy because they couldn't work together.

Fine, they had bad enough relationships that building common approach for defending the things was out of the question, but they really couldn't even be bothered to even set up an alarm effectively saying "gate threatened, I'm about to die, come and help NOW, you guys hate me but world might get nuked". The current setup only shows that gate has been destroyed. Even Lirian did not have any prepared panic button for Dorukan or apparently vice versa despite being lovers.

No points for effort.

It's kinda a central theme of the whole story, there are countless moments where characters try to go it alone only to screwed over. V's attempt to take Xykon head-on comes to mind, as does Belkar's entire arc

[tomandtish]

Dorukan DID have measures in place after his death that Xykon and Redcloak seemingly had no way to bypass: his gate could only be accessed by someone Good-Aligned.

And, perhaps more importantly, he also kept this secret. It’s not in the diary. It’s probably not in his spell book or anything else Xykon would have free access to after killing Dorukan. The only hint he has is that this other area in the dungeon has a similar protection.

Now, once it’s figured out it’ll be easy to get around it. Any number of Good-Aligned people could be tricked or forced into dispelling the last defense, but it’s not like Dorukan had NO contingencies. Team Evil had the run of the place for… weeks? And couldn’t manage to even get to the gate, giving a ragtag band of adventures plenty of time to swoop in and save the day.

OTOH, we have to note that Nale and The Linear Guild apparently knew about this even before they reached the sigils. So I'm not sure how big a secret that was.

[Fyraltari]

It's my take, exactly.
Shojo is (fakely) senile, apparently malleable.
Hinjo is a paladin. Not know to be easy to manipulate.
And if you believe Shojo's ruse, you do expect him to became even more senile with passing time. So you'd want him on the throne as long as possible.

Obviously, it being my take, I could be wrong. Maybe Shojo just likes to have tuna sandwiches.

But at the time of HtPghS, Shojo wasn't acting senile yet.

[Xihirli]

OTOH, we have to note that Nale and The Linear Guild apparently knew about this even before they reached the sigils. So I'm not sure how big a secret that was.

Maybe Sabine figured it out talking to Dorukan’s outsider employees? I’m struggling to think of a way that Nale could have discovered this but Redcloak couldn’t.

I mean, early installment weirdness, but besides that.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe Sabine figured it out talking to Dorukan’s outsider employees? I’m struggling to think of a way that Nale could have discovered this but Redcloak couldn’t.

I mean, early installment weirdness, but besides that.

Loki and Hilgya knew about the Talisman.

[tomandtish]

Loki and Hilgya knew about the Talisman.

They knew about the talisman, but does that automatically mean they knew about the requirement for good aligned people to touch the sigils?

[Fyraltari]

They knew about the talisman, but does that automatically mean they knew about the requirement for good aligned people to touch the sigils?

Automatically? No. But it would explain how Nale knew when Team Evil didn't.

[tomandtish]

Automatically? No. But it would explain how Nale knew when Team Evil didn't.

Yeah, in rereading comic 97 Xykon specifically states that they learned the condition from watching The Linear Guild. So Loki seems logical....

Except that also implies that they knew ahead of time that the OOTS would be there as well.

[Mike Havran]

Yeah, in rereading comic 97 Xykon specifically states that they learned the condition from watching The Linear Guild. So Loki seems logical....

Except that also implies that they knew ahead of time that the OOTS would be there as well.

Well, they might have planned to capture or charm the sylphs and make them touch the sigils.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, in rereading comic 97 Xykon specifically states that they learned the condition from watching The Linear Guild. So Loki seems logical....

Except that also implies that they knew ahead of time that the OOTS would be there as well.

Xykon did hire them to kill them.

[brian 333]

OTOH, we have to note that Nale and The Linear Guild apparently knew about this even before they reached the sigils. So I'm not sure how big a secret that was.

Since Xykon didn't care about the talisman, it is unlikely he had any plan regarding the sigils. The only one that mattered to him was the one on the gate.

[SlashDash]

It's a problem because we lack a lot of information here.
We don't know the real defenses behind Kraggor's gate. Serini made it clear that the gate isn't in the tunnels. Considering Redcloak moved the statue and she isn't bothered by it, it's not there either.

Who knows what else she had planned?


Girard's gate - Same issue. We know the illusions were in place - Lots of traps too. People forget the traps...
But the place wasn't exactly empty. It also had a cult filled with spellcasters. The familicide blasted them all.
Remember that V managed to get into a secret passage that had spy holes in it. So it's likely to assume the place had a lot of those.
I assume if no Familicide was in play, the Draketooth clan would hide in the passages and start blasting intruders.


Soon's Gate - We don't know the nature of the spirits protecting the gate or the full extent of their powers. All we do know - is that Xykon was going to be utterly destroyed if Miko hadn't destroyed the gate.


Dorukon & Lirian - These two I feel are the weakest ones in particular for story reasons.
Lirian makes very little sense. Fire + Forest should be pretty obvious of a weakness. It was meant to be a joke that Redcloak destroyed it. ( It was an accident, let it go)

The virus thing is great and all but surely there are more than enough beings that are immune to disease. Not to mention, the fight between Lirian and Xykon was solely for the sake of the story.
Druids being too op in 3e is even a running joke in the strip itself!

The fact that Liches have some resistances and damage reduction still wouldn't stop an epic Druid (or near to it). But he took her down so easy it was obviously forced for the story.


Dorukon - The fact is Xykon didn't make it to the gate and the dungeon already had plenty of other monsters and such in there. I'm assuming that was the whole point of the hall of outdated monsters.

The guy saw Xykon has his girlfriend and he dropped any sense of sanity and rushed towards him instead of sending his entire army of monsters with him. He opened up the gate to unleash those celestials or whatever, why not send all your monsters along the way?

[brian 333]

Dorukon - The fact is Xykon didn't make it to the gate and the dungeon already had plenty of other monsters and such in there. I'm assuming that was the whole point of the hall of outdated monsters.

The guy saw Xykon has his girlfriend and he dropped any sense of sanity and rushed towards him instead of sending his entire army of monsters with him. He opened up the gate to unleash those celestials or whatever, why not send all your monsters along the way?

Perhaps Dorukon spent a little time watching his TeeVo in fast forward mode and saw that to beat Xykon and end the threat to his world forever he had to lose.

Spoiler: It Worked For Dr.Strange

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Given that his fight with Xykon was somewhat less effective than one would expect from an epic magic user with the resources Dorukon had at hand, and the fact that he and Lirian are together and safe, it is not a stretch to infer that beating Xykon was not his goal in that conflict.

[Laurentio III]

Spoiler: It Worked For Dr.Strange

Show

Given that his fight with Xykon was somewhat less effective than one would expect from an epic magic user with the resources Dorukon had at hand, and the fact that he and Lirian are together and safe, it is not a stretch to infer that beating Xykon was not his goal in that conflict.

Spoiler

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But, killing Xykon and releasing the soul of Lirian to True Resurrect her would be better. Dying and being trapped forever in a gem is, at best, a Plan Z